Using Untrained BC to Move Cattle

[bexie]

I've been mostly AWOL for the past while becaue of health issues, but I'm trying to come back and figure out how to work everything into my life without burning out. So I hope you will forgive that when answering this question.

 

Molly has been on sheep twice. Only once was really on sheep (first time was with sheep in a round pen and her outside). We're having no luck yet finding a good trainer, but I plan to join the Dnaish Herding Club for next year and look further afield. We'd love to go to Shoofly regularly, but that is a bit TOO far afield for us!

 

But the immediate situation is this.

 

We need to help move the neighbor's cattle. We do this once or twice a year normally. But I'm not so mobile anymore so we'd really like to have Molly's help. But the stock is not dog broke.

 

All we want her to do is help keep them together while we drive them (on foot). If we put her on a long line to do that, will that "ruin" her for training in the future?

 

Any tips for doing this in a way that is safe for Molly and not damaging to her potential?

 

I'll be following the drive in the car, so we can put her up if she gets out of control. But if you've ever tried to drive stock through the woods when it sometimes opens up to unused fields, you know how much we can use Molly's help!

[Tea]

Boy,

 

if I were you I'd find a nieghbor with some good horses.

 

Putting a young dog that has only been on sheep twice in the open on cattle that have never been worked before is very risky.

[stockdogranch]

Wow. I would say it really depends a LOT on both the dog and the cattle. Cattle are naturally very curious creatures, and, when something new is in their environment, they tend to come up to it, very close, and want to get nose-to-nose with it. This certainly applies to a dog if they've never seen one or been moved by one. Meanwhile, the dog, if it has only been on sheep twice (once outside the pen, so not allowed to actually INTERACT with them) may or may not have the inherent "moxie" to respond appropriately. When the cattle get nose-to-nose, in order for the dog to teach them that their job is to move off of the dog, the dog needs to at the very least hold its ground, using its eye, and walk on in. A seasoned dog used to dog-breaking cattle will give the stock a nip on the nose, which then teaches the cattle to move away. However, SOME cattle will immediately identify a dog as a threat of some kind, and put their heads down and charge at the dog. A dog with little to no experience with tough stock will not know how to respond, and will give ground. Once the dog has given ground, that steer or heifer has "won" and will now probably not move for that dog.

 

But, if the people are walking along behind the stock, and the dog is merely walking with you, then the dog might gain some confidence because the people are the ones really moving the cattle, but the dog doesn't know that, so thinks it's doing the work. But to expect a dog to drive stock, as in, out in front of you, with you walking behind, generally isn't going to happen--it takes a bit more training to get a dog to drive. And, to also expect a dog to flank out just enough to keep the stock tucked in together, with you behind, is also expecting way more than this dog currently has the training to do.

 

So, bottom line--probably not advisable. If I had a dog who was 1) cow-bred (so I know it has the cojones in its DNA to move cattle), and 2) that dog had enough training to at least walk up off balance, have a great stop, and kinda-sorta knew its flanks, then I'd go ahead and use it, as I start using dogs with just that basic bit of training to do jobs all the time, but I also know that dog and its limitations, and I can read stock pretty well, so I can get a lot of things done with a dog with a wee bit of training on it that an inexperienced handler could not do with that same dog.

 

A

[bexie]

Molly is cattle bred. She also has no fear of them. We've had her with us up to the pasture and the stock tends to move away when she shows up. We have to be really careful if we have her in the barn with us because as soon as we say something to the stock, she is ready to go at them.

 

We have to scold her with the horses a lot because she wants to go at them any time we tell them to do anything or grumble at them. But she will hold her downs despite the temptations.

 

Thanks for the tips!

 

As for the horses idea, my QH with cowhorse background threw me last time she saw a cow move and my DH's oldenborg mare with good stock training is too old. Western horses of any time are a rarity up here.

[rac]

It seems to me that you wouldn't be able to use the dog like you're planning if you keep the dog on a long line. If you want to be the 'push' and have the dog watch the flanks, the dog is going to have to be able to move around quite a bit don't you think ? I also agree with Anna in that driving would probably be a little above what could be expected at this point. It's just as likely that she would want to go to the heads and bring them to you. I don't see that following along on a line could hurt, but I wouldn't expect much more than for her to just have a good time.

 

Ray

[bexie]

The path we drive on is just wide enough for a truck to get through with branches brushing the sides occasionally. The farmer leads with a tractor with a round hay bale on it, so they follow after, somewhat. Then usually we have 3 or 4 people at least following to help keep the sides together and the stragglers with the herd. The "herd" is only around 20 animals--last year's calves up to hiefers in their first breeding season and a young bull.

 

We needed to get the home herd in tonight, so I took Molly with, not expecting her to do anything. But she and I ended up holding the calves in when they kept trying to break out of the fence on the way in (they have been in pasture since early spring). A big calf started pushing her once, but she went right at it (I was ready to move forward and support her and I had crutches to use if I needed to). Just her presence made a huge difference. I don't think we would have gotten them in so quickly without her.

 

This herd had an older bull in it, so no thought of using her for anything more. I stayed out of the fence and far away from the bull until it was in and tied. He's headed to the butcher tomorrow.

 

But thanks for all your thoguhts. It sounds like we won't ruin her as long as we support her in pushing the cows forward but that we also shouldn't expect much of her--be ready to throw her in the truck if she gets too excited or shows any signs of difficulty or stress with the pressure.

 

I really value all your opinions. I do not want to mess up this dog. If I can't find a good trainer, I don't know what we will do.

[hsnrs]

We went to a club practice day on dog broke cattle. We have Aussies. I didn't know what to do so we were behind them. Started to run them and 2 of the dogs got kicked. Newbie handler (me) was wrong for putting the dogs in that situation. If it were me, I'd wait til you had more training on cattle. I know now that we need training too before any more cattle adventures. JMO

Narita

[Vicki G.]

I had a question along the same lines. I have soon to be 2 yr old bc that is in her 3rd month of in house training but only on sheep. She is doing really well on sheep but I have cattle at home. She has been in with them and doesn't fear them at all (she is cow dog breed). Is it feasible to think that I can use this dog- when she and I are ready- on my current set of cows. About 50 cows avg 4 yo, the bulls are only in for 3 months. How do I get them used to her without getting her hurt? I plan to get a few sheep to continue training and go once a week to the trainer for a while, but I don't want to make a mistake with the cows.

[stockdogranch]

Hi, Vicki. I would think she'll eventually be Ok with your cattle, but I would definitely do one of two things before I just put her on those, especially if they are not dog broke. One, you can try to find a few dog broke calves to put her on a time or two, just so she gets the idea. Or two, you can have a dog who is trained to work cattle work them first, and then work with her on your cattle, to help get them dog broke, and to show her that it's generally Ok to be a bit more aggressive with cattle than with sheep. As for not getting her hurt, she WILL get kicked, probably in the chops, and you'll hear it from aways off, and it'll scare that crap out of you; you really don't know if you have a cowdog until that happens. You can't baby her or make a fuss of any kind when it does happen. All you can say is, "walk up"--keep her on her job. If you act like it's no big deal, she'll take that attitude from you, and with any luck, she'll learn to watch for those heels and avoid them in the future. The good ones learn from that first kick, and watch for the heel that has weight on it, and hit that one, then get out of the way when it comes flying.

 

Anyway, bottom line, I wouldn't just put her on a group of 50 fresh cows and expect great things. I would make sure to do some prep work first to make sure all will go well,

 

A

 

ETA: Do you have anyone near you who works dogs on cattle who can help you expose her to cattle?

[Amelia]

Hello all. To Bexie and Vicki, I would suggest that you make sure your dog has a good recall, so you can rescue your dogs if they get in trouble. Beyond that, give it a try and see what happens, just be prepared to step in and help.

[Vicki G.]

Thanks for the advice- I'm in KY so not a lot of people with bc on cattle, I see some ACD's but I can definitely look for someone who has a dog trained on cattle. I did put her on 7 calves I had raised on the bottle that were ~400 lbs and she did great- but I am a novice myself so I am going to start training with her once a week. I have a lot of work before I'm ready, but I know it will be worth it. She has been kicked once at ~12 months when she got in with the cows when my guard was down. She now has a pretty reliable recall and a great down.

[bexie]

Thanks Amelia. Molly has a great recall and has solid downs and sits when feeling herding urges. We put her in a down near the horses all the time. She may be trembling with excitement, but she holds it.

 

Not sure yet when we'll be moving this herd, but I want to be prepared. The farmer tends to wait until the last minute then we end up moving them in a snow storm...