The trouble with raw?

[JohnLloydJones]

It seems dogs and jalapenos don't mix...

 

We don't use many jalapeños, but we do use lots of ground red chilies (cayenne) and Thai chilies in our food and they don't faze Senneca at all. Maybe it was the beans that caused the upset?

[bsms99]

This looks to be a good site for reading about dog foods...based on about 10 minutes of reading.

 

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=ingrd

[Bill Fosher]

Sorry, but it just seems a bit odd to see a forum dedicated to dogs who help herd food trying to figure out a kinder, gentler way to procure meat for their dogs.

 

Whoa, dude. The whole point of having Border collies is to help my sheep live a better life. Call it kinder, gentler, or call it low stress animal handling, the bottom line is that my dogs let me take better care of my livestock.

[Bill Fosher]

I guess I just get upset when people act like modern agriculture is the enemy. Without it, a lot of people would have to starve. I'm wealthy enough that I could afford to be more selective about what meat I buy. Many cannot.

 

The reason that bad food is cheap is because we have made it that way by subsidizing corn, soybeans, and transportation. We could make grassfed meat just as inexpensive as feedlot meat with some pretty simple (technically simple, anyway) federal policy changes.

 

The enemy is not agriculture. It is the government's cheap food policy.

 

The US has a net food supply (food produced plus food imported minus food exported) of about 3,200 calories per person per day. The people in the US who are hungry are starving because of modern agriculture, as modeled by tax policies and regulations, not in spite of it.

[Bill Fosher]

In a perfect world I would own 1000 acres and raise a commercial size flock of sheep..... I would also be able to support myself with my own meat and vegetables from my own garden, therefore not supporting the "evil" feedlots that supply a population of "over-eaters" and buffet customer's that waste more than they eat.

 

I own 2.5 acres of land and raise more than 100 lambs per year. Five years ago I owned no land at all and produced 1300 lambs per year. You don't need to own the land you raise sheep on. The world is as perfect as you make it.

 

There's a lot of options between buying whatever's on sale at Mal*Wart and owning 1,000 acres.

[Caroline Reichard]

"So, somewhat back on topic - for the kibble plus raw feeders out there, how do you feed? Two meals per day, one raw? Or just toss some raw in as you can? Feed both together?

 

I'm heading back towards raw but don't want to go off kibble completely, and had some trouble when i tried feeding a combination before, so i'm wondering how you work both in. I really don't want to feed 2 meals per day if possible."

 

I'm also really interested in the actual topic as Robin summarized it. The rising cost of kibble has made me reexamine how I feed my 5 dogs, and there have been changes in how I manage both the dogs and the sheep.

 

Most of my lambs are sold privavtely as locker lambs. Ever since my first sight of the local auction's pen of starving newborn calves, I have worked very hard to avoid sending animals to the auction. I have a nighbor that butchers his own animals and has a nicely set-up operation. I don't send food for human consumption there, but I am now sending all my animals to him that do not get sold in the private market. He grinds everything up, and I pick up chilled ground lamb or mutton in 5 gallon buckets along with buckets of bones. I bag it myself and put it into 1 of my 2 freezers. This comes out to costing less than kibble. (My neighbor is a very nice man and gets to hunt my land, so we have a good understanding.) I'm hoping that this deer season I will get all sorts of venison products that don't go on the human table.

 

I feed my dogs once a day. Some nights they get raw, some nights they get kibble. I save all the kitchen material that the raw web sites advertise as being beneficial for dogs in a small bucket that fits in the refrigerator, and I mix that with the meat and bones. Next summer I plan to freeze the extra garden produce that doesn't get to the table and use that, too (bolted greens, mutant zucchinni, etc).

 

The dogs on which I used to have trouble keeping weight are without exception looking fitter and sleeker.

[Wendy V]

Kinda on topic question...

 

Why is it assumed that kibble is "balanced" nutritionally, as if every piece of kibble is a multi-vitamin for dogs? What is in kibble that a dog can't get by feeding a prey-based raw model?

[Bill Fosher]

Day-old dairy bobby calves would be exceptionally cheap at the moment -- I believe some dairy farms will give them away. Not a lot of meat on them, but if you're up for doing the slaughter and butchering yourself, it could be a source of inexpensive dog food that actually avoids animal suffering (the alternative market for bobbies is veal, for the most part).

 

Wendy,

 

Don't get me going on nutritional "balance." Breaking food down into a series of chemicals is what gave us margarine and other frankenfoods. Most kibble is just an exercise in trying to achieve certain numbers on a label at the lowest cost by supplementing floor sweepings with cheeks and beaks -- like the beef feeder who uses feather meal or broiler house litter as a protein supplement -- the numbers might be good, but you can't argue that it's a diet that produces healthy animals. (Or produces health in the animals that eat those animals ...)

[bsms99]

Do you believe the standard dry dog foods result in unhealthy dogs?

[Caroline Reichard]

Do you believe the standard dry dog foods result in unhealthy dogs?

 

 

I know for a fact that I have dogs that have trouble keeping on weight and whose coats are dull when fed only kibble (and I was feeding IAMS -- much costier than standard kibble). When fed raw, their coats are better, they can keep weight on, and their demeanor seems on the whole better. I have other dogs for whom it seems to make little difference.

[bsms99]

Kinda on topic question...

 

Why is it assumed that kibble is "balanced" nutritionally, as if every piece of kibble is a multi-vitamin for dogs? What is in kibble that a dog can't get by feeding a prey-based raw model?

 

Kibble is fairly uniform in nutritional value. Raw can obviously provide all the required nutrition - otherwise dogs eating it would be unhealthy. However, you as the owner have to ensure balance. My Mom fed our stupid poodle 'raw' in the 60s & 70s - he had plenty of energy, but bad teeth because she didn't get an appropriate mix (very few bones). That was her fault. A vet finally told her to switch to kibble because she was making the dog sick.

 

If you'll forgive a horse example: we had a terrible time finding decent hay for our horses this summer. We could feed them all the hay they would eat, and they were still losing weight. We started buying bags of complete feed - horse chow, if you will - and feeding them half and half. They gained the weight back. Now that we're getting better hay, we could go back to a completely hay diet - but they like some pellets and are doing well on the mix. Glossy coats, better hooves, more energy, less coughing, etc.

 

We give our dogs 'toppings' of whatever leftovers we have. If I had a farm and slaughtered my own beef, they would be welcome to the leftovers. My first dog loved castration time. He'd fight for the testicles. But since they have all done fine on dry dog food, why switch? And I continue to maintain that since no animals need to be killed to produce kibble, it has no ethical concerns.

[Laurae]

All my dogs have done better on raw. When my dogs were kibble fed, each had issues.

 

Sophie is hypothyroid and, in addition to her thyroid meds, had to be fed a diet of "novel proteins" according to thyroid expert Dr. Jean Dodds. This meant she had to avoid beef and chicken altogether, or she would have horrid diarrhea. Once we switched to a raw diet, I was able to slowly introduce chicken quarters and beef parts and she tolerates them fine. She almost never has diarrhea anymore.

 

Taz had trouble keeping weight on when he was kibble fed. I used to joke about his "german shepherd–sized poops" even when he was a pup—they were huge and kind of "puffy." It was clear he was not processing his kibble very well. Plus, even at just two years old, his teeth were starting to look awful, with brown parts all over them. His breath was terrible, too. Now he looks terrific, his stools are compact and his teeth are white again.

 

I got Craig at almost nine years of age, and I've had him for about a year and a half. He was kibble-fed all his prior life, and I switched him over to raw immediately. His coat is softer and his teeth are in much better shape, and though he is ten he moves like a dog half his age.

 

I know this is anecdotal, but we are three for three in my household. My dogs just do better on a well-balanced raw diet.

[bsms99]

I know for a fact that I have dogs that have trouble keeping on weight and whose coats are dull when fed only kibble (and I was feeding IAMS -- much costier than standard kibble). When fed raw, their coats are better, they can keep weight on, and their demeanor seems on the whole better. I have other dogs for whom it seems to make little difference.

 

I don't doubt some dogs have problems on dry. None of mine have, but that is a very small sample and lot of folks say they have had dogs like yours. I believe in feeding what works best for the individual dogs. If I encounter one that needs something beside dry dog food, I'll switch...although right now, our puppy seems to be supplementing his dry dog food with my wife's sneakers...

[juliepoudrier]

Mine are mostly on kibble at the moment and anyone who has seen them would say they are the picture of health. At the last trial I attended, people were asking me what I fed because my dogs looked so good. But I do also feed raw. I have two dogs that get kibble in the morning and raw at night. Others get raw whenever (no particular schedule). They all also get cooked leftovers. The other night I had some raw fish that Willow and Lark refused to eat, yet the gobbled it right down after a short turn in the microwave. I have had dogs who lost weight on top-notch kibble (Timberwolf Organics) when others of the pack would have become real porkers on the same stuff. I've put weight on dogs with a simple extra meal of oatmeal with a bit of milk added in.

 

All along we have said that folks should do what seems to work best for their individual dogs. I try not to be a fanatic about feeding for anyone else's dogs--I worry about my own and let others choose what they wish to do with theirs. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to indicate that a raw diet improves the health of dogs. But we've all seen/heard the arguments for and against the various methods of feeding raw (whole prey model, BARF, feeding a diet only a wolf would eat vs. feeding a diet a coyote might eat, etc.). I think switching from a low-quality kibble to a high-quality kibble would probably benefit any dog, but dogs get by living on garbage (i.e., at human dump sites around the world), so if an individual dog is happy and healthy on whatever it's fed, and the owner is satisfied with the feeding choice and its effects on the individual dog, then that's all that really matters.

 

Frankly, I haven't yet figured out a way to feed a pack of 10 dogs a completely raw diet and include the variety I think is necessary to meet all their needs and stay within my budget. So I do what I can. I imagine that's what most folks do.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

*WARNING: Graphic photo of dead deer below*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's an example of the diseased and starving white tail deer we "grow" in North Carolina. This near-record buck probably weighed in at around 250 pounds. The man holding him is 6'5" to give you an idea of relative size.

 

 

J.

[Lenajo]

Sheesh Julie, what a wimpy little deer! The Alabama version is much bigger LOL

[Shoofly]

To be even more graphic, you should have seen the heart and liver out of that same deer last night when i was cutting it up to put in the freezer!

[Lenajo]

I haven't yet figured out a way to feed a pack of 10 dogs a completely raw diet and include the variety I think is necessary to meet all their needs and stay within my budget. So I do what I can. I imagine that's what most folks do.

 

That's a really good point. I know a lot of people who can't do 100% raw, but certainly have the means to improve the quality of diet and by that their dogs' lives by adding well chosen raw foods to a good kibble diet.

 

Unfortunately the purists often driven them away because it's not one specific diet or the other, or they drown them in rules, ratios, and books.

 

It should be about making the best choices you can every day for the individual dog,within your own budget.

[Bill Fosher]

I have a yearling buck (roadkill) hanging in my back yard right now. His carcass is probably 65 pounds, of which about 15 is kidney-pelvic fat. This guy was glistening and glossy. Along about mid-April he would have been in poorer shape, to be sure, but I think it's a mistake to say he had a hard life. He looks like he had a pretty good life and a very rough last five or 10 minutes.

 

----------------------

 

I thought my dogs were plenty healthy until I switched them to raw meat. I didn't make the switch because of nutrition per se, I did it because it was cheaper. After about two months on raw meat, I started to notice better coats, better stamina, smaller stools, less gas, etc., etc. Since then, the cost equation has inverted: I could save money by going back to kibble. But I think the benefits of better health are worth the additional costs.

[Chesney's Girl]

I thought my dogs were plenty healthy until I switched them to raw meat. I didn't make the switch because of nutrition per se, I did it because it was cheaper. After about two months on raw meat, I started to notice better coats, better stamina, smaller stools, less gas, etc., etc.

 

Excellent point! You don't know until you try, whether your dogs are "fine" or thriving (not healthy) on what they are currently eating.

[juliepoudrier]

And then there are those of us who have, and do, feed both, and I suppose the argument would be that we wouldn't see that tremendous difference until we switched completely to raw. Oh well, I'll say it again, we all do what we can to the best of our ability. I won't be made to feel guilty or as if I'm not doing right by my dogs by others who don't live my life.

 

J.

[Lenajo]

Would you care to speculate on why some dogs don't do well on all raw diets? I've seen a few, rare but still a few, who were that way.

 

 

And then there are those of us who have, and do, feed both, and I suppose the argument would be that we wouldn't see that tremendous difference until we switched completely to raw. Oh well, I'll say it again, we all do what we can to the best of our ability. I won't be made to feel guilty or as if I'm not doing right by my dogs by others who don't live my life.

 

J.

[Ooky]

That's a really good point. I know a lot of people who can't do 100% raw, but certainly have the means to improve the quality of diet and by that their dogs' lives by adding well chosen raw foods to a good kibble diet.

 

Unfortunately the purists often driven them away because it's not one specific diet or the other, or they drown them in rules, ratios, and books.

 

It should be about making the best choices you can every day for the individual dog,within your own budget.

 

^^what she said. My choice is to continue to only buy properly handled meats for my own food prep AND for raw feeding. Odin will not eat veggies, I have tried. So I like the added feeling of security I get supplementing with a holistic food kibble that includes apples, peas, carrots, zuchinni, cranberries, etc, AND probiotics (although I also supplement with plain yogurt). I also like the convenience, and I don't trust factory farmed raw, less for him and more for me. It does get on his fur, the towel, his crate, and frankly a lot of it looks and smells bad to me and is not a fun experience to feed, handle, or buy the way nicer meats are. A pearly, clean-smelling, yard-insect and grain-fed free range chicken that has been handled with individual care from raising through butchering, well, I have no problem handling that sort of meat myself and love giving it to him fresh multiple times a week. Is there a chance there could be parasites or foodborne illness-causing bacteria in that meat too? Yes, but in my mind the risk is much lower then stuff raised in feedlot conditions and butchered and packaged in a big crazy factory. I also love not having to worry he's not getting enough of one vitamin or another as there are veggies cooked into his (YES less digestible, poorer quality, and heat- and extrusion-damaged) kibble while at the same time leaving us enough room in our freezer for our own food AND my biological samples.

 

Mark B, that is very interesting about the prions, and I am actually very glad to hear it. The reason I assumed cooking killed them at least enough to lower your risk is that I like raw beef and was once told by a medical doctor that he himself would never eat such a thing because of the prion risk. However, I love Ethiopian kitfo and love even better the traditional dish called gored gored. The traditional way to eat that is to have someone cut your raw beef by hand and feed it to you piece by piece, so clearly I am not squeamish. I think the hand feeding part is weird, but was quite charmed when the owner of my favorite Ethiopian food restaurant did this for me and DH as thanks for being loyal customers and the only white people consistently brave enough to trust him on the very fresh and high quality of his ranch fed beef. It is like fantastic sushi, which I also love and only eat as nigiri, or basically just undoctored chunks of raw fish over rice. (Sushi mainly out now, due to overfishing/farming issues. Sigh.)

 

That is also where some of my aversion to factory farmed raw meats comes from - I personally love raw meat. But bad quality meat is never good tasting to me, and in my mind *I* would not eat it raw. I'm sure Odin would have no problems himself, and we probably wouldn't be poisoned by bacteria anyway. But ewwww! And, he also likes poop. I'm not trusting him.

[juliepoudrier]

No, I don't care to speculate Wendy. I had my old guy on a strictly raw diet for well more than a year and it didn't fix any of the ongoing problems I thought it would help. I didn't blame the raw diet for the fact that the issues remained (no one has *ever* seen me claim that a raw diet didn't help my dog, even though it didn't fix some of the issues I had hoped it would), but rather on the fact that he's an old dog. Like others I get tired of the near religious fantacism of some folks about their choices, be it raw or kibble. Broken record warning: We all do what we can to the best of our ability. There's no need for folks to try to shove their choices down other folks' throats, whether you (the generic you) be a die-hard whole prey model raw feeder or an advocate of Purina Dog Chow. These threads are interesting to me when we stick to discussing the whys of what we feed; they become infinitely less interesting when they step into the realm of faith....

 

J.

[Lenajo]

The 2 dogs I had problems with appear to be carbohydrate dependent. It takes very little to balance the raw diet to keep them in good weight and coat, but it has to happen.

 

My vet and I have been pondering, but haven't had any real concrete ideas.