The trouble with raw?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I do have a way to feed everyone without industrial ag - sustainable farming. It's a false dichotomy you are setting up. Mass production is quite possible without the excesses and abuses of modern industrial ag.

 

As for subsidies - I'm a political conservative. I don't believe in subsidizing any business.

 

Well, then, you don't believe in the modern agro-business model, which makes possible all the genetically modified seed crops and confinement livestock raising. Without vast amounts of funding from the government given hand over fist, not to mention privileges and protectionism, these methods would not be possible.

 

I'm a political conservative too and therefore I'm in favor of a shift to modern sustainable farming.

 

The choice is not between hunter-gatherers and agro-industry. There are many shades in between, and beyond, that can serve the markets of the world, if allowed to do so.

[mjk05]

raw fed commercial rmb and vegetables/grains - USDA and all human grade, but only that - still suports CFF.

 

I was just wondering what proportion of commercial RMB (and human consumption meat, for that matter) in the US is actually "factory farmed"?

 

Last week I went for a work-related visit to one of our local abattoirs, and was surprised to find that most of their products are exported to the US, Europe and Middle East (it's a halal abattoir). They ship out everything from whole carcasses and boxes of rib flaps and other bones, to packaged roasts, racks etc.

 

The sheep that go through this abattoir are almost all locally produced, and most of them are like ours, born and grown in pastures and grain is only fed towards the end of summer when feed is low in the paddocks (so, not to the abattoir lambs). I don't think we're a "factory farm" (but not entirely sure what that is) . There are feedlots around here, and I'm sure some feedlot lamb goes through the abattoir, but they seem to cater more for live export.

 

On another tangent, I think the key to raw feeding cheaply and well is storage. If you can store it, it's possible to buy entire carcasses fairly cheaply, or make contacts (farmers, hunters) that will get you large quantities of raw meat and bones occasionally. The trick is storing it all- we get offered the occasional whole cow (death in calving etc) and unfortunately we only get to feed a small proportion because we don't have enough freezer space. If we could get a walk-in freezer, we could feed raw most of the year just from that sort of source.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

We don't eat much lamb/sheep. Therefore, even though the vast maority of sheep products now available to us are humanely raised in your part of the world, we don't really take advantage of it. It's too bad, really.

 

That's an interesting illustration of what we are trying to say. In Australia, New Zealand, and the UK, they raise huge quantities of sheep products which not only feed their populations, but also for export. I'd venture to say New Zealand lamb is almost all exported.

 

It's all raised humanely - no confinement. Likewise they raise venison, goat, and cattle without need of non-sustainable methods - and they are improving all the time. Within my memory, they outlawed a practice that was pretty horrifying but which seemed to be eternally necessary - until modern science rendered it extinct all at once. They used to cut a live lamb's skin from the hocks to the anal opening, and up under the tail, and skin it away - this was so it would grow back wool-free and save the lamb a horrible death from flesh-eating maggot flies. Now I can't remember what they do now - but theyy now have a way to do this - with a chemical I think?

 

But back to the point - Americans eat huge amounts of beef and chicken. And they want their beef a certain way, and only certain parts of it, and they want their chicken a certain way, and only certain parts of it. And they don't want to ever, ever, ever see that animal raised in front of their eyes and they certainly don't want it around when it's alive. These animals poop, you know.

 

So even though most Americans live in urban areas, and family farmers are selling their acreages by the thousands, as recreational grounds - the vast majority of American livestock, millions and millions of cattle and pigs and possibly billions of chickens - are raised in confinement.

 

From Wiki:

In the U.S., four companies produce 81 percent of cows, 73 percent of sheep, 57 percent of pigs and 50 percent of chickens.[23]

Testimony by Leland Swenson, president of the U.S. National Farmers' Union, before the House Judiciary Committee, September 12, 2000.

Whole article here with plenty of references to continue researching - if you dare.

 

We live bizarre lives now. We maintain vast acreages of lawn for our pleasure, run our cards over the limit purchasing toys and chemicals to keep them perfect - and then go to the store and pay $6 a pound for a leg of lamb at Easter time. And $5 lb for prime rib steaks to throw on the grill. We make laws so that you can't even have a duck or a chicken in these lovely neighborhoods.

 

In a society that favored sustainable food supplies, it would be possible to keep four lambs, or a feeder calf, or three or four goats, on that acreage, to keep the grass trimmed and at the end of the season, go in the freezer. Grass maintained by sheep is far healthier than the majority of lawns I've seen kept by your average weekend gardener.

 

The model of the UK and Australia proves that it's not necessary to raise animals in confinement to keep up with the supply. Americans simply need to change some of their expectations. Confinement production arose in response to cheap grain prices - but then grain prices rose and now beef production operations need government help to purchase that grain - while vast tracts of ungrazed public land sit, and get overgrown, and burst into wildfire.

 

The costs of confinement production rise all the time as pathogens get resistant to more and more expensive antibiotic feed additives - pathogens that have no business being in the bovine gi in the first place - pathogens that are bred directly by force feeding a ruminant, high amounts of simple carbs and proteins. On grass, these same pathogens have little or no chance to reproduce in the high pH of a healthy bovine gi. They also have little to no chance of actually being exposed when raised in a healthy environment. Our grandparents and great grandparents remember the days when a rare steak didn't come with a warning from the Surgeon General. Beef tartare anyone? I've had it - it's delicious, but I sure wouldn't have any from an animal I hadn't personally met first.

 

Grass fed animals are higher in omega-3s. Deficiency of omega-3 fatty acids are implicated in a number of developmental and mental problems from ADD/ADHD, to mood disorders, to early onset dementia. That's not the only micronutrient that confinement-fed animals are low in, but the level of deficiency and particulars vary from operation to operation.

 

If the USDA/FDA found some fatal flaw in the confinement system of raising animals and had to shut down every operation tomorrow, neither Americans, nor the world, would starve or plummet back into the dark ages. Just like when gas prices went through the roof, we'd tighten our belts for a while and then some - or many - smart alecks will figure out how to make grazing-based operations pay.

[Alaska]

The REAL trouble with feeding raw, as I recently discovered, is that when you have something to celebrate with your dogs, it's hard to come up with an extra-special dinner since they already eat high quality, healthy, fresh meals every day.

[Laurae]

[mjk05]

We don't eat much lamb/sheep. Therefore, even though the vast maority of sheep products now available to us are humanely raised in your part of the world, we don't really take advantage of it. It's too bad, really.

So you're saying that most of the commercially available sheep meat products in the US probably come from grass-fed, paddock-raised sheep from Australasia? If that's the case, then presumably that means feeding Australian/NZ sheep bones/meat isn't too bad in terms of "ethical raw feeding" (apart from the transport/globalisation issues).

 

Within my memory, they outlawed a practice that was pretty horrifying but which seemed to be eternally necessary - until modern science rendered it extinct all at once. They used to cut a live lamb's skin from the hocks to the anal opening, and up under the tail, and skin it away - this was so it would grow back wool-free and save the lamb a horrible death from flesh-eating maggot flies. Now I can't remember what they do now - but theyy now have a way to do this - with a chemical I think?

 

Are you talking about mulesing??

If so, that's an amazingly inaccurate description. Mulesing is more widespread in Australian farming- NZ doesn't have anywhere near the fly problem, and their sheep industry/breeds are different, but they are still doing it (link. The majority of wool producers in Australia still mules, there is no effective alternative available, and if I were an average merino lamb I'd prefer to be mulesed than not. Having said that, lambs bred for meat (like those exported to the US) aren't mulesed at all, and, like an increasing number of farmers, we have just stopped mulesing altogether (and previously we used local anaesthetic for a much less drastic and dramatic procedure than you've described).

 

Otherwise, I agree with most of your points. The future is almost certainly in locally produced, seasonal foods, although I do wonder if it's realistic to expect average people to produce even a significant proportion of their own food in today's society, especially with a growing population. Modern society and lifestyles will have to change incredibly for this to happen, and I'm not holding my breath.

 

And they don't want to ever, ever, ever see that animal raised in front of their eyes and they certainly don't want it around when it's alive.

Yep. As an ex-vegetarian I think everyone should take the opportunity to see where the animals they eat come from, and how they're slaughtered. Ideally, you raise and kill your own animals, but understanding where they come from is the next best thing.

[NorthfieldNick]

ZOMG! I go to work all day, and come back to three pages of discussion. Wow!

 

Thaks for all the responses. I guess I wan't thinking very hard here...

 

I live on an island. A small one. I have to get on a ferry to get to the mainland. It really limits the accessability of everything. My entire living comes from animal protein. ALL of it. I raise sheep. I also manage a shellfish farm. People don't think of them as "animals," but trust me, clams and oysters are very much alive. I can't tell you how many oysters I've killed some days just in the day-to-day business (darn, why can't dogs eat ugly oysters?!)

 

And DUH! I'm part of a livestock producer's Co-Op! The folks at the cut-and-wrap place are always griping about how many organs & bones they throw away. It doesn't cost anyone anymore to have the bones wrapped instead of thrown out. At least half the people I know hunt. Heck, I was just lamenting the fact that my duck-hunter friend cuts off the legs & breast, and dumps the rest. I bet with a little work, I could make feeding raw not too difficult. I already have two freezers, so usually have plenty of storage space.

 

For whoever asked about feeding raw & kibble, I usually feed both in the same meal. Sometimes it's one or the other, though. My dogs usually get fed twice a day, sometimes more- like if they get a frozen liver mid-day or something (my dogs seem to enjoy chewing away at mostly-frozen meat).

 

Sheesh, who knew I'd start such a discussion

[bsms99]

...Sheesh, who knew I'd start such a discussion

 

It has been an amazing discussion. Until I started reading this board, I hadn't realized that a number of people feed their dogs large quantities of raw meat. When they argued it was to improve their dogs' health, I wasn't inclined to argue. My dogs have done fine on kibble, but some dogs have allergies or may spend more time working. Whatever works best for your dog is fine by me.

 

I hadn't realized, however, that for many it is a religious experience. Apparently, some find the presence of animal byproducts in kibble unethical. Even though the animals killed die for human food, and the number confined/killed doesn't increase to support production of kibble, it is considered unethical. This seems a bit odd, but it wouldn't bother me either - except the solution is to feed your dogs nearly an all meat diet! People who spent the first page arguing that we should be vegetarians, or at least try, then argue corn shouldn't be fed to dogs!

 

For the majority of people who do not live on a farm, this means having other animals killed to support your dogs. Even if they are free roaming, organic cows cheerfully giving their lives, you still have animals killed to feed your dogs. Hmm...

 

Kibble: no animals need to die to feed your dog. Evil.

 

Raw meat: animals die to feed your dog. Good.

 

And this passes for logic? Amazing.

 

And kibble is said to be unhealthy for dogs because of all the bad stuff like corn in it. A hundred million dogs live in excellent health (including all of mine for the last 30 years), but that doesn't count. Vets recommend it, but what do they know? Those who feed raw KNOW that kibble is causing cancer, obesity, diabetes, etc. Amazing.

 

And finally (since it doesn't do any good to argue religion), people argue we are less healthy now that 100 years ago. Not because some people eat way too much sugar, or sit on their fat butts all day, but because our meat isn't all grass fed. We're taller, larger, live longer, start puberty earlier - and it is a sign of unhealthy food. Amazing.

 

Truly an amazing thread. I think I'll just bow to the moral superiority of those who feed raw and let them debate unmolested the relative advantages of killing deer or seeking out happy cows singing Born Free and killing them instead. My dogs are thriving on dog chow, and no extra animals are being killed to make it. I'm a heathen!

[Lenajo]

So true

 

The REAL trouble with feeding raw, as I recently discovered, is that when you have something to celebrate with your dogs, it's hard to come up with an extra-special dinner since they already eat high quality, healthy, fresh meals every day.

[Lenajo]

And DUH! I'm part of a livestock producer's Co-Op! The folks at the cut-and-wrap place are always griping about how many organs & bones they throw away. It doesn't cost anyone anymore to have the bones wrapped instead of thrown out. At least half the people I know hunt. Heck, I was just lamenting the fact that my duck-hunter friend cuts off the legs & breast, and dumps the rest. I bet with a little work, I could make feeding raw not too difficult. I already have two freezers, so usually have plenty of storage space.

 

Sounds like you've found some great sources

 

Another meat I've found that Border Collies do really well on is rabbit. I've found a compromise of both worlds I like - the rabbits are confined off the ground (so no parasites as are abundant in wild rabbit) but they have plenty of space and a healthy, naturally oriented, organic diet.

 

The only thing I don't feed is the hide - which I suppose would be ok, but the owner has a market for it that decreased the prices of the rest of rabbit to an equal to high quality kibble. Equal in price to kibble, but 100% edible and of nutritional value to the dogs.

[stockdogranch]

And kibble is said to be unhealthy for dogs because of all the bad stuff like corn in it. A hundred million dogs live in excellent health (including all of mine for the last 30 years), but that doesn't count. Vets recommend it, but what do they know?

 

Yes, and for, what--40? 50? years, feeding one's baby formula was all the rage, and DOCTORS told us it was the way to go. And children survived on it, and with formula and Wonder Bread, grew up strong and healthy. But now we know better. "Better living through chemistry" isn't always necessarily so,

 

A

[stockdogranch]

Reaching puberty earlier is generally a sign of better health when young, not the reverse.

 

Again, not necessarily so. Several of the factors under investigation that may be linked to early onset of puberty are: obesity (as onset of puberty is linked to physical size), broken homes, absent fathers, watching too much television (all of these can have an effect on hormone balances), and environmental chemicals. Are all of these good things--signs of "better health"? I think not,

 

A

[Laurae]

And it's common sense that eight-year-old girls getting their periods cannot be a good thing—they are children. This was completely unheard of only 15 years ago, and now it's becoming much more commonplace. This is very frightening to me.

[Lenajo]

Last year a study on this was discussed in passing at a medical conference I was at, and then again at a dog training conference. (interesting eh...) The leading reason believed to bring on early puberty is stress. Populations that fear their survival (war, poverty, famine - of which sadly desribe both life of a feral animal as well as many of the children in our inner cities) tend to reproduce as early as possible to ensure survival fo the species. Only populations with heathly breeding populations can afford to delay reproduction very long if they want to survive.

 

After that the most likely sources were hormones via animal based foods, and environmental chemicals.

 

 

And it's common sense that eight-year-old girls getting their periods cannot be a good thing—they are children. This was completely unheard of only 15 years ago, and now it's becoming much more commonplace. This is very frightening to me.

[Mark Billadeau]

And since it doesn't involve killing other animals to produce, it seems at least as moral as raw.

 

and....

 

Kibble: no animals need to die to feed your dog. Evil.

 

Raw meat: animals die to feed your dog. Good.

You seem to be under the impression that animals are purposely raised and slaughtered for the raw dog food market. The human food market has a much higher profit margin than the dog food market. Animals are primarily raised for human consumption and those animals or parts of animals that don't sell in the human food market are then sold at a lower profit to the dog food market (raw or kibble). How is feeding raw any more or less ethical than feeding kibble?

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

I probably shouldn't even bother, but to BSMS I have this to say: If you've actually read the whole thread then you know that a number of us also feed kibble in addition to raw. I suppose it wouldn't suit your argument to acknowledge that fact, but there it is. Granted, we also try to feed our dogs the best quality kibble available, but that really doesn't fit in with your "raw as religion" argument either, so feel free to continue ignoring that fact.

 

Why you get your knickers in a twist over the fact that *some people* choose to eat and feed their pets as ethically as they can just boggles the mind. No one has told YOU that you must do any of this. In fact, this whole thread was started by someone looking for ethical and economical raw feeding ideas. Clearly the OP already had clear ideas about how he wanted to feed his dogs, so I don't even get why you needed to come along and argue for a food choice the OP wasn't even going to consider. The only thing that makes sense is you wanted to make yourself feel better about your choices or you just wanted to argue. As far as I can tell no one even said that anyone ELSE must feed raw, so no need for defensiveness on any kibble feeder's part--the OP wants to feed raw, whether or not you approve, and was soliciting advice about it. It was never a question of feeding kibble, so I don't understand why you need to argue about how good the kibble you feed is. NO ONE CARES WHAT YOU FEED YOUR DOG. Perhaps you could do the rest of us the courtesy of not denigrating our feeding choices either.

 

ETA: Mark, logic or facts need not apply to this discussion!

 

J.

[D Strickland]

In a perfect world I would own 1000 acres and raise a commercial size flock of sheep..... I would also be able to support myself with my own meat and vegetables from my own garden, therefore not supporting the "evil" feedlots that supply a population of "over-eaters" and buffet customer's that waste more than they eat.

 

The reality of it is that I can't have it all ...

 

I feed my dogs the best I can - I butcher my own sheep and goats and I also buy meat from Walmart.

 

When times got tough I switched a couple of my non-working dogs to kibble.

 

We all do that best we can do and to try and force our point of view on others is reminiscent of the Crusades - " believe what I believe or die !!!! " A ridiculous concept to say the least !!!!

 

Whether you feed meat or kibble should make no difference to anyone else.

[Mark Billadeau]

Since I didn't back up my claims with facts here is an example of what I'm talking about.

 

American Grass Fed Beef

Our cattle are born, raised and finished on open grass pastures in the rolling hills of southern Missouri. We practice a holistic approach to farm management which sustains and nourishes the environment through restoration and soil improvement techniques.

 

Our cattle are bred for the quality of their beef and receive a forage diet free of pesticides as they are continually rotated to fresh new pastures. Our animals are never held in confinement, are never fed antibiotics and never receive synthetic growth hormones.

 

Our cattle are finished on the highest quality forage available that is in a green growing state. This practice insures the best quality grass fed beef possible that is consistent in its clean beef flavor and tenderness.

 

Our cattle are harvested in our own processing facility under our direct supervision. This assures that each individual animal is treated humanely and without stress. Our grass fed beef is dry aged for 14-21 days to concentrate the beefy flavor and tenderize the beef. It is then broken down by skilled butchers who take pride in their art of cutting beef.

 

Our family is passionate about providing our customers with the healthiest, safest and highest quality beef on earth.

 

Patricia Whisnant, DVM

Grass Farmer and Veterinarian

 

Natural Grass Fed Raw Dog and Cat Food BARF Diet

By special request, we have provided customers with our all natural USDA grass fed ground beef, liver, tongues, hearts, knuckles and tails for their dogs and cats. All of our beef is human quality and processed at a state of the art USDA facility.

 

Our cattle is raised on a grass farm using NO pesticides, NO steroids, NO hormones and NO antibiotics.

 

The grass fed ground beef for pets is the exact same 80% to 90% lean beef with no added fat that we provide on the grass fed beef pages. We do not believe in cutting corners on food for our precious pets. We feed them the same high quality beef we trust for our own nutritional needs.

 

You can make burgers for yourself with the ground beef and give the excess to your dog or cat with no worries. If you enjoy beef liver, hearts or tongues, the items on this page can be enjoyed by you since they are USDA processed for human enjoyment. Of course, we recommend cooking beef items for human consumption since we do not have the digestive system of dogs and cats.

 

We have discovered that many of our health conscious visitors are advocates of Dr. Billinghurst's BARF diet. We have been getting more and more requests as "word of mouth" advertising has increased the demand. News about our beef has traveled fast with our growing number of satisfied animal friends and their happy owners.

 

For the convenience of our customers, we have decided to add a small area on our site devoted to grass fed beef for your cats and dogs on raw food diets.

This doesn't look like farmers who are specifically raising and slaughtering cattle to sell ground beef, liver, tongues, hearts, knuckles and tails for dogs and cats. It looks like farmers who have found a market for those cuts of meat that don't sell well for human consumption.

 

Mark

[bsms99]

The ingredients used in processed and fast-food meals are also being examined for possible links to early puberty. Research into possible causes continues, but as yet there remains no established links between these environmental issues and early puberty.

 

“The vast majority of these theories have been unproven,” says LuAnn Moraski, DO, Assistant Professor of Pediatrics and Internal Medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin. “There are no proven links to cosmetics, meats, or other factors in this country that I know of.”

 

http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/1031002256.html

[Ooky]

What a cool discussion. I would get into the long-term NON sustainability of monocultural factory farming of either animals or corn and other grain crops, but don't have time right now.

 

Earlier in the thread, it was pointed out by several people that kibble meats are likely factory farmed as well, so that is no reason to go kibble over factory farmed raw. This is true, but I don't worry about bacteria or prions in kibble due to the cooking. I get nervous about the salmonella content of those tyson chicken packs and the greyish meats I see at the local Lucky's! I like the organic free range chickens from our butcher, but I am not so hard core that I never order meat in restaurants either, so I realize once you remove yourself from your own food prep you are giving up a lot of choices. Kibble is just easier, with nutrients already balanced, no cooking prep time required for my peace of mind, and easier to store than factory farmed meats, so if the ethical choices are similar, I guess I have so far come down on favor of kibble supplemented with nicer meats and RMBs.

 

I am one of those weird animal lovers that wishes she knew how to hunt and or could farm- I want to kill my own animals as opposed to being removed from the whole thing. I think you would eat less and better meats that way, and would appreciate it more.

[Mark Billadeau]

I don't worry about bacteria or prions in kibble due to the cooking.

I suspect you'll find the extrusion temperature and duration used to prepare kibble is not sufficient to inactivate prions.

 

Biosafety in Microbiological and Biomedical Laboratories

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

and

National Institutes of Health

 

Inactivation of prions. Prions are characterized by extreme resistance to conventional inactivation procedures including irradiation, boiling, dry heat, and chemicals (formalin, betapropiolactone, alcohols).

 

It is recommended that dry waste be autoclaved at 132C for 4.5 h or incinerated.

Typical extrusion temps listed in literature range from 100C to 150C and residence time in the extruder is much shorter than 4.5 hrs.

 

example of conditions: Extrusion effect on the quality of dog food

 

Mark

[MrSnappy]

**point in conversation where it's so over RDM's head she just stands there, mouth agape**

 

In over 8 years of feeding exclusively raw, my dogs have never been poisoned by bad meat. And it's melamine-free!

 

However, recently a bunch of people in Canada died of Listeria found in pre-cooked lunch meat. Yech. And aren't they forever finding e-coli in non-meaty spinach?

 

RDM

[Mark Billadeau]

...it's melamine-free!

RDM

And mycotoxin free.

[Lenajo]

it was pointed out by several people that kibble meats are likely factory farmed as well, so that is no reason to go kibble over factory farmed raw. This is true, but I don't worry about bacteria or prions in kibble due to the cooking.

 

Based on the canine response to it alone - there is more quality available nutrition in raw meat than cooked. There is science in both directions as always, but it appears that overall raw food is going to maintain more of it's nutrition than cooked food.

 

The problem with kibble with commerical factory farmed meat sources is that it isn't just meat. You have preservatives, colorings, fillers, possible contamination at the factory. The melanine scandal is just the tip of the iceberg. There is also alphatoxin (from corn), salmonella, etc.

 

Kibble processing does not kill prions. I'm not sure food would survive to edibility cooked to the point prions will die.

[bsms99]

Dogs have incredibly tough digestive systems - at least mine do. It seems highly unlikely to me that meat sold in most stores could cause a problem for a dog just because it is raw. My dogs often drink water in the desert that would gag a maggot on a gut wagon, but they've never become sick. Other than the time they got into a large vat of chili, they've never even had the runs. It seems dogs and jalapenos don't mix...