The trouble with raw?

[Lenajo]

Sorry, but it just seems a bit odd to see a forum dedicated to dogs who help herd food trying to figure out a kinder, gentler way to procure meat for their dogs.

 

Border Collies were developed around natural livestock raising- they are the tool that makes it possible in most places. That same natural raising (animals in flocks or herd, grazing on grass, raising their young on the same) has been proven to result in the healthiest type of meat to consume.

 

Factory farming does not need stockdogs. They cram all the livestock or poultry they need in the smallest possible space, feed the cheapest "food" (often we wouldn't consider it so) stuff they can get, and when the animals don't do well because the food is unbalanced or species inappropropriate (i.e. chronic acidosis in cattle on high grain, diseases of all stock from tight confinement) they put routine antibiotics and medications on the feed. Since weight, not quality is the deciding factor of success in factory farms lots of things get done that decrease quality - from hormonal implants, to daily antibiotics. Then there is the waste issue. Animals with sufficient space and naturally oriented pasture rotation produce fertilizer in an amount that can benefit the soil. Confined in factory farms the amount of waste reaches lethal levels - both to breath, to the water supply..... Where do you think the healthiest chickens the ones that produce the healthiest meat - are? The farm where they have enough space per chicken that they can move about freely on graze? or the chicken house that you are not allowed as a human to enter without a respiratory protected mask because the ammonia will burn your lungs?

 

I've raised sheep now for a little over 20 years. We have just returned to raising our own beef and eggs. The quality difference in pasture reared, naturally raised meat is unbelievable. And what tastes good in that regard...has been proven to also be better for us as well. Higher in EFA and CLA in particular, lower in saturated fat.

 

By supporting farmers and ranches who raise livestock as naturally as possible, you support a healthier planet. The side effect of this is you yourself have healthier food to eat, and the Border Collie continues to have a job.

 

As many have pointed out, life/finances/individual issues can prevent us from all feeding exactly what we would like too to our dogs or selves. It does makes a difference however, to make good choices when and how we can.

[Shoofly]

Robin,

I feed two meals per day, but that was just because I was trying to get Lark eat and put some weight on her. When Willow went on heart meds and lost her appetite, I started feeding her twice a day as well. I'd prefer to feed once, but this is what I'm doing for at least those two. If I wanted to do once a day, I'd probably alternate days, but Polly M. once told me that she viewed raw + kibble the same as spaghetti and meatballs....

 

J.

 

Yeah, and as i understand it, the kibble and raw are digested at different rates so it's best not to feed them together in the same meal. I sure don't want the problem Jet had (which involved a gloved finger and a very kind friend to resolve ) again. I wonder if feeding a few days of raw, then a few days of kibble, that sort of thing, would be easier on the dogs than switching every other day.

[Lenajo]

Actually, because the ethical treatment being touted may have more to do with feeling good about yourself than ethical treatment.

 

How is treating an animal in a fashion that provides a healthier meat for us a bad thing?

 

For example, you can feed standard dry dog food like Dog Chow and use the money you save to support good causes. Dog Chow, IIRC, is mostly corn, grain and animal waste parts. There isn't much there that involves animal suffering. The parts that come from animals would go to waste otherwise, so it isn't like animals are being bred and raised to support Dog Chow.

 

My goodness what a rationalization! By your theory, the cattle should be greatful for McDonald's too! And we should be greatful for McDonald's because after all, it provide human food, and the leftovers create pet food.

 

Mcdonald's cattle by far, are feedlot raised. That's not a environment that produces healthy meat for us.

 

If you go with meat from some source other than a local farm, you will probably be supporting animal suffering of some sort.

 

Why don't you explain that one in detail?

 

Deer have miserable lives, and most suffer as they die.

 

I see deer every day here. Most are slick fat and doing fine. How exactly are they having miserable lives? And everything dies - how do you propose the deer stay suffer free?

 

Free roaming cattle sounds romantic, but even if I err in believing the cattle don't frolic and sing as they roam, they may well be stuffed into trucks and hauled inhumanely to a slaughterhouse. If you don't have personal knowledge, there is a chance someone will lie to you about how they raise/transport animals.

 

ah....the best rationalization of all. Don't trust anyone because they are all lying! As far as I can tell you are skirting on the edge of that yourself...the lying thing.. But I can't prove it, and the conversation has good points for all so we continue. (AR Troll anyone?)

 

You COULD raise cattle in a happy environment, kill them swiftly in the field, and transport the meat in a way free of chemicals - but the cost will be rather high.

 

You really don't know much about livestock do you... killing cattle like that is good business, and the cost is realitavely low. You miss out on numerous middlemen.

 

It isn't evil to save money - money not spent on one thing can be spent on another. Market efficiency has allowed unprecedented number of people eat meat. Unlike dogs, most people refuse to eat People Chow...

 

Thank goodness! But you can if you want. It's called Total Cereal and continues 100% of your daily allotment. Please do this for at least a year and get back to us on how you are doing.

 

I have, until recently, bought standard, largely plant-based Dog Chow. The dogs have all been healthy and happy, and it doesn't support the animal suffering that hunting or buying most beef does. It is, arguably, the most HUMANE food for dogs.

 

We've already addressed that. If you like it - feed it. I have a neighbor like you - he feeds his cattle burned/cooked down chicken feathers and feet from a local plant It's 18 percent protein! (% digestable has never been checked.) Of course his cattle don't look so good, and the meat tastes strange so he doesn't sell any to private people. They are "too picky"...not like the feedlot of McDonald's. He's heard of Mad Cow - "those crazy people fed sheep to cows!. Why do you keep those nasty sheep?"

 

Yet he feeds chickens to cows....his logic and yours are similar.

[Root Beer]

So, somewhat back on topic - for the kibble plus raw feeders out there, how do you feed? Two meals per day, one raw? Or just toss some raw in as you can? Feed both together?

 

I'm heading back towards raw but don't want to go off kibble completely, and had some trouble when i tried feeding a combination before, so i'm wondering how you work both in. I really don't want to feed 2 meals per day if possible.

 

My one dog who eats kibble plus raw has grain free kibble in the morning and an RMB in the evening. I'm not sure if that's really the best way to go, but it has worked for her for over a year now.

 

I don't see why you chouldn't feed raw one day and kibble another. Every now and then my kibble fed dogs get all raw - usually if I'm out of kibble or if I have raw meat that needs to get eatten immediately and I need to feed it to everyone to get rid of all of it. And very infrequently Speedy gets grain free kibble as a full meal. None of them have had any digestive issues because of it.

 

I would think that if your dogs eat both kibble and raw on a fairly regular basis, whether you were to switch every other day or every few days, it might work out just fine.

[Lenajo]

I know quite a few people who mix kibble and raw meat and veggies with no ill effects. They feed bones in seperate meals.

 

I would only question mixing if the quality of the meat was iffy. And if it was...I wouldn't feed it, so that's solved

 

 

My one dog who eats kibble plus raw has grain free kibble in the morning and an RMB in the evening. I'm not sure if that's really the best way to go, but it has worked for her for over a year now.

 

I don't see why you chouldn't feed raw one day and kibble another. Every now and then my kibble fed dogs get all raw - usually if I'm out of kibble or if I have raw meat that needs to get eatten immediately and I need to feed it to everyone to get rid of all of it. And very infrequently Speedy gets grain free kibble as a full meal. None of them have had any digestive issues because of it.

 

I would think that if your dogs eat both kibble and raw on a fairly regular basis, whether you were to switch every other day or every few days, it might work out just fine.

[juliepoudrier]

BSMS,

I guess I'm super dense because I still don't get the point you're trying to make? Are you trying to convert all of us to Purina Dog Chow? If so, you're wasting your time (just as we are apparently wasting ours by trying to have a discussion with you). I'm quite sure I don't lie to the people who buy sheep from me, not only about how they are raised, but also how they are transported. That's not real good for business. As I have stated before, I avoid factory-farmed meat as much as I can, and I try to do the same for my dogs. If you'd like to justify your feeding choices, fine by me, but it's a stretch to claim that the animal parts in what you feed is somehow okay, because it would go to waste otherwise. It's crap and should go to waste (as in trash). Contrary to your apparent belief, farm animals were kept naturally for centuries before factory farms came into existince, so raising livestock naturally is not actually some whacked out, new agge concept--it has served family farmers very well forever, and it has only been since the industrial age and the demand for cheap meat after the World Wars that factory farming became the "farming" method of choice. I don't think you'll find a lot of scientific evidence to support that the methods used in factory farming (high stress, antibiotics, hormones) are beneficial for either animals or humans, but by all means please continue to live in your world where treating animals less than humanely is somehow okay.

 

As many have said before, feed what you like, You don't have to jusrify it, but it's silly to try to claim that a corn-based diet is somehow more ethical. Corn production in this country isn't exactly environmentally friendly or healthy either.

 

J.

[lrayburn]

I don't like feedlots or all the stuff that get stuffed into cattle, but I don't want to spend $20/pound for hamburger either. Sorry, but it just seems a bit odd to see a forum dedicated to dogs who help herd food trying to figure out a kinder, gentler way to procure meat for their dogs.

 

I think I just made that point that you can actually choose to support a more sustainable/more ethical/more environmentally sound system without paying more than the grocery store by finding someone local to you who produces freezer meat. I'm surprised that you are so vehemently rationalizing supporting CAFOs which are not good for the animals, our health, the environment or small farmers. But to each there own.

 

Deer have miserable lives, and most suffer as they die.

If so, then maybe I am doing them a favor by having someone kill them humanely in the field and feeding them to my dogs.

 

Lisa

[bsms99]

You never addressed why a dog food that is largely plant based isn't more ethical, by the standards you apply, than dog food that involves killing animals.

 

You may see fat deer where you live. I don't encounter a lot here in southern Arizona, nor did I in Utah. The biologist in me (that was my degree) suspects a population will grow until checked by disease, predation, or starvation. Given relatively few predators, it seems likely most deer populations are kept in check by starvation and disease - both of which make predation easier. Most deer, like most humans prior to the Industrial Revolution, have hard lives. If they didn't, they would reproduce and survive until the numbers DID mandate a hard life.

 

If you can get meat from a local farm, you can KNOW how the animals are treated, and shipping long distances crammed into trucks is eliminated. If you cannot, then you must trust someone when they say their cattle are frolicking happily on green hillsides, and are transported comfortably to a place where they are killed humanely. The best would be to raise the animals on your own farm - but many of us do not live on farms.

 

Killing cattle in the field is cheap for the farmer, who has no costs for transport, preserving, etc. However, if it were a cheaper business practice overall, it already would be followed. It is not because meat is cheaper in the current setup. You don't know much about business if you believe McDonald's, for example, buys from feedlots because it is more expensive to do so.

 

I pointed out most people, like myself, don't want to live on People Chow. MREs are bad enough.

 

Over the last 30 years, my dogs have lived happy and healthy on Dog Chow. So have about 100 million others - people don't feed their pets food that makes them sick. Indeed, there is plenty of reason to believe Puppy Kibble (to take Purina out of the picture) provides too much nutrition, since puppies can grow at a rate that encourages hip dysplasia (http://www.bordercollie.org/hd.html). Your suggestion that it is the equivalent of feeding cattle chicken feathers is a sign of hysteria. I would also suggest the large percentage of very large Americans suggests that McDonalds, for all its faults, is NOT harming growth. Compared to earlier generations, we are larger, healthier and live longer...apart from those who are obese from gluttony.

 

I didn't start the discussion about feeding dogs free roaming, self-fulfilled cattle - others argued over who had the most ethical feeding philosophy. The most ethical should include the least amount of inhumane treatment, preferably with the least cost. Kibble meets that criteria better than raw.

 

The original post asked, "How virtuous can one be?" Some argue their dogs perform better on raw. That is an acceptable, logical argument - humane athletes generally don't live as vegetarians either. Just don't pretend raw is morally superior to dry dog food, or that feeding your dog free roaming, organic, stress-free cow muscle makes you a more ethical person.

[bsms99]

...maybe I am doing them a favor by having someone kill them humanely in the field and feeding them to my dogs.

 

Correct, if you get a good hunter. Utah hunters, in particular, frighten me. I was shot at more times working for the Forest Service north of SLC than I was in Afghanistan.

[MrSnappy]

I didn't start the discussion about feeding dogs free roaming, self-fulfilled cattle - others argued over who had the most ethical feeding philosophy. The most ethical should include the least amount of inhumane treatment, preferably with the least cost. Kibble meets that criteria better than raw.

 

Other than the cost factor, which is not an ethical consideration but a practical one, you've still not proved to me that kibble meets any ethical considerations at all. All you do is say it, but you've backed it up in no way whatsoever. If kibble is a byproduct of a slaughter industry where animals are raised in repugnant / crowded conditions, fed other animals, improperly stunned before being hung up by their feet or heels and sliced open while aware/cogent, it's neither ethical nor humane. Whether someone feeds it on the bone like I do, or "disguised" in kibble like you do, it's still unethical.

 

Please note I'm not arguing that I don't support this industry. I am aware that I do. It makes me uncomfortable, but I've not figured out a way yet to not do that. However, if someone has the means to feed nothing but humane and ethically raised and slaughtered meats, I applaud them and contrary to your (unbacked) opinion, it is a more ethical feeding philosophy. As long as there is any amount of factory farmed animal product in the mix, it's part of the problem, not the solution.

 

People live longer because of generalized better nutrition and healthcare. It's rather a laughable argument to suggest that people live longer, healthier lives because of MacDonalds and similar as opposed to in spite of it.

 

RDM

[bsms99]

Other than the cost factor, which is not an ethical consideration but a practical one, you've still not proved to me that kibble meets any ethical considerations at all. All you do is say it, but you've backed it up in no way whatsoever...

People live longer because of generalized better nutrition and healthcare. It's rather a laughable argument to suggest that people live longer, healthier lives because of MacDonalds and similar as opposed to in spite of it.

 

RDM

 

The dog kibble in my garage is primarily corn, other plants, and parts left over unused from slaughter for human food. Since pretty much none of it involves animals raised or killed to provide dog food, it seems it would involve less animal suffering (as in none) than getting beef from slaughterhouses, supermarkets, etc. If the goal is to minimize animals raised in confined areas, fed hormones and garbage in feedlots and transported and slaughtered, then cheap dry dog food fits the bill. It also saves money, which you can then donate to charity and feel even better about yourself.

 

Since I apparently am illogical, perhaps you can tell me the ethical concerns about feeding dry dog food...is the corn grown in a confined area? The rice from non-organic sources? What ARE the ethical drawbacks to dry dog food?

 

You agree with my point that people live longer in part because of better nutrition. I don't eat at McDonalds. My meat comes from Costco. I strongly suspect it isn't from free range, organic, happy cattle dancing on hillsides. It probably comes from the same sort of feedlots McDonalds uses. If meat from feedlots is unhealthy, then why do people grow so big and live so long eating it?

 

As for those arguing the animal parts in kibble is not suitable for feeding - what do you think wild dogs/wolves/etc eat? Flank steak only? They will eat small animals whole, and the carcasses I find out in the desert are pretty well picked clean too.

[Tea]

My Grandmother told me some things.

 

She told me, "All things die. So when you take for food, do so with care and compassion." To my Grandmother everything was

alive. Including plants and rocks and sites.

 

Have you seen a field harvested? Things die in that harvest, snakes, birds, insects, mice, etc.

 

A mono culture crop only supports its own life and those it feeds, nothing else. So I don't think thats a good road.

 

Have you seen the folks that harvest those fields?

 

The deer live and when they get sick or old or injured or unlucky a predator takes them. To say that they live hard lives to me is confusing. Life can be hard but at least it is life. I see alot of wild animals in rehab. I make their lives easier when I heal them, they are warm, well fed. But when I release them they NEVER look back. They never want back in the cage.

They RUN from me.

 

I am free. I live my own life. To me that makes it good. The deer are other Nations. They are not like us. Not worse, not better. Other Nations deserving of respect, traveling their own road.

 

But I will eat them.

 

I eat my lambs.

 

I hunt. I fish...I raise a garden but in a way respectful of life around me.

 

Sometimes I fail at that. But I try.

 

But what I have noticed is the way I live can support others around me and not take away the native forest with its plants and animals.

 

And when I die I hope to give back what I have taken by being buried in the old way. I guess they are allowing that now.

[Debbie Meier]

Going back to the original topic, you can check for custom lockers in your area, we have one down the road, they call us when they get heart, liver and tongue that are unwanted by the person having the animal butchered. They also send us rib bones and occasionally a leg if the animal was injured and sent to the locker to get what they could out of it. Most are small farm raised, the big confinements in our area don't let individual animals out for private slaughter, they go as a large unit to the big corporate plants or are killed on the farm and cast into the dead bins. You may also be able to find a commercial lamb producer that has cull ewes where you agree with their animal treatment techniques and purchase their culls for below market (saves them the money of transporting them to the sale barn and paying commission). You can check with your state sheep assoc. to see if there is a commercial producer close to you.

 

BTW, I was just at HyVee (grocery store chain), bone-in leg of lamb $4.99/lb. First time I've seen it in the meat department.

 

Deb

[Laura L]

You agree with my point that people live longer in part because of better nutrition. I don't eat at McDonalds. My meat comes from Costco. I strongly suspect it isn't from free range, organic, happy cattle dancing on hillsides. It probably comes from the same sort of feedlots McDonalds uses. If meat from feedlots is unhealthy, then why do people grow so big and live so long eating it?

 

This is getting off topic, but I'd just like to point out that just because people are living longer lives, they're not necessarily healthier ones. Diabetes, heart diseases and such are at an all time high. That's not because of better nutrition, it's because of cheaper, high fat, high sugar foods.

 

Laura

[stockdogranch]

Robin, I feed both raw and kibble. Everyone gets fed once a day, except the pup who also gets breakfast. They all get their kibble, every day, with some hunk of raw on top. The pup, too (since I brought her home at 7 weeks), but her breakfast is just plain kibble. I'm like Julie--I just don't trust that I'm covering my nutritional bases well enough with raw only, hence, the kibble (also makes travelling for weeks at a time a bit easier). I've been feeding it this way for several years, and have had no problems whatsoever as far as digestive times and all that. Maybe I'm just lucky?

 

A

[Chesney's Girl]

The dog kibble in my garage is primarily corn, other plants, and parts left over unused from slaughter for human food.

 

Why not just go to a vegetarian diet for your dogs if most of the products in your kibble is less meat than plant material?

 

As for those arguing the animal parts in kibble is not suitable for feeding - what do you think wild dogs/wolves/etc eat? Flank steak only? They will eat small animals whole, and the carcasses I find out in the desert are pretty well picked clean too.

 

Yes, they will eat the WHOLE animal, not just the hooves, or left overs that are being put in the dog food. A whole small animal is far more nutritious than the additives in kibble, not to mention there are no fillers (corn, and plant material, unless the anminal has just eaten) in whole animals. Feeding a kibble that's main ingredient is corn and by-products is short changing your dog.

 

As for me the only unethical problem I can come up with for me about raw is not feeding it. For me feeding my dog anything but whole fresh foods is doing him a disservice. To be able to afford the best food possible for my dogs is what I do. That usually comes in bulk from a co-op at home and honestly I don't know where the meat comes from other than its all human grade and there is a nice variety or meats. California has, in my book, sufficient regulations on meat. If I could find food for my dogs that could come from a local farmer where I know what the animals live like and a comparable price to what I get meat at now, then I would, but like RMB, price and availability of fresh meat takes president.

[Lenajo]

Your arguments are beginning to look like swiss cheese....and just when I thought the couldn't get any worse.

 

I will dwell on this one, because it says it all:

 

If meat from feedlots is unhealthy, then why do people grow so big and live so long eating it?

 

The fact that the current young generation is the first that is estimated to not be living longer than there parents is a crisis that has been talked about in medicine and science around the world. Despite this country being one of the major powers of the world with fantastic health facilities we are seeing escalating rates of cancer and heart disease. Obesity, seen as early as toddlers now, is the result of a generation that is growing up on fast food - everything from corn syrup to saturated fats. Diabetes rates are skyrocketing - with the accompanying elevation of diabetic complication from blindness to amputation.

 

The fact that you think society is healthier now, and that our food supply is the reason, makes me think you've been living under a large rock for a long time. That or you simply prefer to plays Devil's Advocate just because you can. Either way it's growing boring.....and it's non-productive for those of us trying to read the thread

[MrSnappy]

Since I apparently am illogical, perhaps you can tell me the ethical concerns about feeding dry dog food...is the corn grown in a confined area? The rice from non-organic sources? What ARE the ethical drawbacks to dry dog food?

 

I hate to quote myself but as I already pointed out

"If kibble is a byproduct of a slaughter industry where animals are raised in repugnant / crowded conditions, fed other animals, improperly stunned before being hung up by their feet or heels and sliced open while aware/cogent, it's neither ethical nor humane. Whether someone feeds it on the bone like I do, or "disguised" in kibble like you do, it's still unethical."

 

I don't think I need to reword it if you can't grasp it in this simple format. Your dog food is not a fortunate or happy byproduct, its part of a whole disgusting market. It was not discovered "by accident" that it go into dog food.

 

I am always amused by the "byproducts are good because wild animals eat the whole animal, even the gross bits" justification. Do they also harvest and shuck corn? Saw that a lot in wild canids in your time in the field, did you? They spent a lot of time rendering various non meat products into little brown nuggets in a factory somewhere? Smart dogs.

 

RDM

[Sue R]

They all get their kibble, every day, with some hunk of raw on top.

 

I am glad to hear this, Anna. I was understanding that raw and kibble were digested at different rates and was concerned about feeding both at one time. As we have some excess frozen burger, I have been substituting a bit of that (thawed, raw) for a portion of the kibble at each meal, and not seeing any problems so far.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Okay. I feed a partly "plant-based" diet to my dogs and that's the easiest way to support sustainable farming. I use oatmeal, wheat germ, rice, and *gasp* corn in my home prepared diets. I make sure they are non-GMO, preferably from family farms (the oatmeal is from a local mill for instance). Corn is just plain scary. Those lovely fields out west are full of mutant plants that are part insect, part plant and one of these days it's gonna bite us all in the rear.

 

As to $20 a pound raw hamburger, as Julie said, you can come here and I'll sell you grass fed (well, mostly) lamb, custom cut to your order, at a humane facility, for $4 to $5 a pound. There's a guy near me who sells grass fed beef and you can purchase a half or quarter beef (that includes all the prime cuts plus your hamburger) for $4.50 a pound. From what I've seen, that's pretty darn close to Walmart beef - it is CHEAPER if you include all the steaks you'd get.

 

Robin, when I fed kibble and RMBs, I went by the 25% rule if I didn't have the time or information to plug the nutritional information from the kibble into my spreadsheets. If I did, I went up to 50%.

 

It's not true that kibble and RMBs digest at different rates. Well, it does, but just because it's different stuff. But it is totally natural for things to "digest at different rates." It won't hurt your dogs to just do one meal. The only thing I found was that the RMB part was somewhat bulky and the dogs seemed to be able to get in more if they ate the RMBs in an evening meal, and the kibble as a breakfast. This worked out fairly well on the road, too, because there are fewer evening meals on the road typically and if you are really pooped or pressed for time, you can skip the RMB meal easier if they've already had their kibble for the day.

 

Plus, it's a nice way to unwind at night, last thing, to hear them relaxing and crunching their bones after a day's work and play.

 

I continue this schedule now. Their morning meal is a grain/fruit/veggie/herb/organ meat/muscle meat/fish combo, part cooked and part raw (I notice that lenajo's "scale" didn't include my approach, lol). They get their supplements at this time too. This is easy to digest and gives them plenty of energy for the day's work ahead. Then at night they eat their RMBs. Sometimes at midday they may get one of a selection of snacks I have available - stewed treats, raw "meatballs", baked goods.

 

Spoiled? Nah.

[bsms99]

This is getting off topic, but I'd just like to point out that just because people are living longer lives, they're not necessarily healthier ones. Diabetes, heart diseases and such are at an all time high. That's not because of better nutrition, it's because of cheaper, high fat, high sugar foods.

 

Laura

 

You are correct. The amount of sugar consumed is frightening, and there are serious health issues for people who overeat. I suppose those who eat 6 lb steaks are likely to have health issues as well. However, if you compare us to the pre-WW2 generation, we are much larger, with more muscle, etc. IIRC, the average WW2 recruit was 5'7" & 135 lbs.

 

We do have cancers, but we live longer and many of us have been around all sorts of nasty chemicals. The US Air Force has injected me with all sorts of nasty vaccines...anthax and smallpox in one day! Yech! If I get cancer, it is more likely to be the years in the sun, all the petroleum stuff on flightlines or the anthrax shots than my meat.

 

I guess I just get upset when people act like modern agriculture is the enemy. Without it, a lot of people would have to starve. I'm wealthy enough that I could afford to be more selective about what meat I buy. Many cannot.

 

And for dogs, feeding raw is fine if they need it. I suppose some dogs do. I've never owned a dog that had any problems on Purina Dog Chow. Heck, they eat nasty things they find in the desert, pack rats when they can catch them, drink water from the scummiest sources - and thrive. Don't even get the runs. And since it doesn't involve killing other animals to produce, it seems at least as moral as raw.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

By the way, for information on local farmers who sell sustainably raised product off the farm - check out this web site: Eat Wild There's a locator so you can find producers near you. If there's nothing on the web site really close to you, call the nearest ones and ask how to get in touch with people selling close to you. There might be a local association, or they might be aware of a farmer's market where you can meet these people.

 

The problem with feeding fresh foods to your dog is that it doesn't just wait for you at the pet store. IF you don't want to spend tons of money, or compromise on ethics, you've got to do the legwork.

[Tea]

Hum? Modern Agriculture as the enemy.

 

I don't think that. I think that it needs to evolve.

[juliepoudrier]

The dog kibble in my garage is primarily corn, other plants, and parts left over unused from slaughter for human food. Since pretty much none of it involves animals raised or killed to provide dog food, it seems it would involve less animal suffering (as in none) than getting beef from slaughterhouses, supermarkets, etc.

 

Huh? If you're getting animal parts, even leftovers/waste, in your kibble then the animal suffered for it. Just because the primary reason the animal was killed wasn't to produce the dog food doesn't somehow mitigate the suffering the animal did go through to provide human food and then the byproducts that go into the dog food. That's a seriously specious argument I'm afraid.

 

If the goal is to minimize animals raised in confined areas, fed hormones and garbage in feedlots and transported and slaughtered, then cheap dry dog food fits the bill. It also saves money, which you can then donate to charity and feel even better about yourself.

 

If cheap dry dog food still contains animal parts, then you're not minimizing anything.

 

Since I apparently am illogical, perhaps you can tell me the ethical concerns about feeding dry dog food...is the corn grown in a confined area? The rice from non-organic sources? What ARE the ethical drawbacks to dry dog food?

 

Can you say monoculture? Do you understand that those vast fields of corn and wheat and rice are not grown without application of all sorts of chemicals, and of course all propped up by subsidies for Big Ag? Hardly the healthy picture you're portraying, for humans or the environment. Do you understand the theory behind the use of and the safety of genetically-modified plants?

 

You agree with my point that people live longer in part because of better nutrition. I don't eat at McDonalds. My meat comes from Costco. I strongly suspect it isn't from free range, organic, happy cattle dancing on hillsides. It probably comes from the same sort of feedlots McDonalds uses. If meat from feedlots is unhealthy, then why do people grow so big and live so long eating it?

 

Sure people who are fed better live longer than those who live on the edge of starvation. Of course the down side to cheap, easily available food is a host of health problems related to eating it, like diabetes, heart disease, and cancer. The question is whether animals that are raised in confined conditions and pumped full of antibiotics and growth hormones are actually contributing to better *overall* health, which is measured by more than just height. I'd like to see some studies (Mark B, where are you?) regarding the fact that girls are reaching puberty at ever younger ages. Cancers and other diseases related to our diet are killing plenty of people. Obesity is a huge problem in this country, as others have said. There's a trade off. If the crappy food we're eating can make us live longer, imagine what long and healthy lives we'd have if we ate nothing but truly good food--ethically raised, minimally treated with chemicals, low impact on the environment.You can argue all day long that we're doing great by ourselves, but really unless we can live sustainably, we are likely doing more harm than good in the long run.

 

As for those arguing the animal parts in kibble is not suitable for feeding - what do you think wild dogs/wolves/etc eat? Flank steak only? They will eat small animals whole, and the carcasses I find out in the desert are pretty well picked clean too.

 

Sure, and they'll eat decomposed things and sh!t too, but no one is advocating those things as part of a healthy diet.

 

ETA: I think that at least some of us feel that while the lowest common denominator (factory farming) is sufficient to feed the masses, that shouldn't prevent us from striving for something better.

 

J.

[bsms99]

"Huh? If you're getting animal parts, even leftovers/waste, in your kibble then the animal suffered for it."

 

Not true. The suffering would happen regardless, so it is not increased in any way by my dog food.

 

"Can you say monoculture? Do you understand that those vast fields of corn and wheat and rice are not grown without application of all sorts of chemicals, and of course all propped up by subsidies for Big Ag? "

 

Can you say starvation? That is what would happen to hundreds of millions, if not billions, if we got rid of monoculture agriculture. Who do you suggest die, and how does that fit into your ethics? The chemicals prevent pests, increasing yields and decreasing spoil. Most every society since the beginning of time has desired that! As for subsidies - I'm a political conservative. I don't believe in subsidizing any business.

 

"Do you understand the theory behind the use of and the safety of genetically-modified plants?"

 

Yes. I majored in Biology. Genetic modification doesn't bother me. I don't like it when it is done for color or something stupid, but to increase resistance to spoiling? I'm for it!

 

"Of course the down side to cheap, easily available food is a host of health problems related to eating it, like diabetes, heart disease, and cancer."

 

Diabetes is not caused by eating meat, nor is heart disease. Cancer seems to be caused by everything, with long living being its chief cause! If we died earlier from starvation, it wouldn't be as common. If you eat lots of fats and sugars, all bets are off.

 

"The question is whether animals that are raised in confined conditions and pumped full of antibiotics and growth hormones are actually contributing to better *overall* health, which is measured by more than just height. I'd like to see some studies (Mark B, where are you?) regarding the fact that girls are reaching puberty at ever younger ages"

 

I object to growth hormones, etc. If someone wants to ban them, that would be fine by me. Feeding grain doesn't bother me. Reaching puberty earlier is generally a sign of better health when young, not the reverse.

 

"You can argue all day long that we're doing great by ourselves, but really unless we can live sustainably, we are likely doing more harm than good in the long run."

 

Before you can live sustainably, you must first live. I've lived in places where starvation is common. My wife is from the Philippines. When she came to the American base from the province, she was 5'2" & 80 lbs. Abundant food is a blessing. And I won't say what she weighs now...

 

Modern agriculture - including monoculture fields for the last 5000 years or so - is a wonderful thing. Too much food is a blessing almost anyone who lived prior to 1900 would LOVE! And producing food sustainably involves fertilizing, monoculture fields, selective breeding, etc.

 

You can go back to a hunter/gatherer culture if you wish. I prefer having time to ride my horses, play with the dogs, post on the Internet and eat pizza and drink beer.

 

"Sure, and they'll eat decomposed things and sh!t too, but no one is advocating those things as part of a healthy diet."

 

I'm not suggesting it as part of the diet, just pointing out that it means they can do well on some pretty nasty things.

 

"ETA: I think that at least some of us feel that while the lowest common denominator (factory farming) is sufficient to feed the masses, that shouldn't prevent us from striving for something better."

 

I guess I feel something for "the masses". I'm not willing to call evil what is done to feed those "masses". If you have a way to feed them without modern agriculture, please speak up!