The trouble with raw?

[NorthfieldNick]

I'd like to feed my dogs an entirely raw diet. They currently eat part kibble, and part raw in the form of various sheep pieces from my flock. I like the idea of a no-grain diet. My dogs can not eat most of the grain-free kibble I've seen- they have either eggs or potatoes in them, both of which my crew has allergies to.

 

In a lot of posts about raw feeding, I see people talk about how thrilled they are to get chicken backs, turkey necks, what have you on sale, in bulk, etc. I'm going to assume here, which is never a great thing, that any animal part that cheap is coming from CAFOs (confined animal feeding operations) and the like.

 

I don't really want to support that kind of livestock operation, nor do I want to put all the antibiotics, hormones, etc into my dogs. Heck, I won't eat meat from CAFO animals.

 

I can't afford to buy free-range, organic meat for my dogs.

 

I raise most of the meat I eat, and there is no way I could afford to raise enough to feed my dogs. There's not enough "leftovers" when we butcher to feed the dogs. I use the necks, etc. The dogs do get lots of organ meat (of which I have more than I could ever eat), and they eat old rams. I know some people feed cull ewes, but I can have my old ewes ground and sell them for far more than they're worth as dog food. I'm not rich, by any means, and the income from those old ewes is very welcome.

 

Of course, on the flip side, what kind of livestock operation (I refuse to call it farming) am I supporting by feeding kibble? I know there are the organic, free-range, etc kibbles out there, but they're either out of my price range, or have ingredients my dogs are allergic to. I'm not kidding when I say that my mutt can eat about three brands of kibble out there- even supposed "hypoallergenic" foods generally don't work!

 

So, where's the balance in this conundrum? How virtuous can one be?

 

(If this would be better off in the Politics section, please feel free to move)

[Ooky]

This is one of my major issues with all raw too, and I don't have a flock I can cull from.

 

On the bright side, since I only feed him meat I would eat (which is nice stuff), it is meat I am fairly certain is low enough in bacteria neither him nor I need to worry about that part of it overmuch.

 

I am interested to hear others' opinions on this.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

If you have enough storage, buy off the farms. I want to get more into that myself for my family too. Just like in the old days, except a family raised the animals themselves - they'd slaughter and then store a pig, a calf, some large poultry, and many weeks worth of chickens.

 

The important part is not organic and all that rot, but humanely raised. I just want animals raised on grass, mostly, and don't really care all that much whether they got doctored up when needed with LA or got a cocciostat in their feed. And as you say I don't want to support industrial agriculture.

 

Can't do that yet - nowhere for the extra freezer space. We will at the new place and I'm looking forward to it.

 

I compromise between cost and doing raw, by incorporating a homeprepared cooked portion into their diets. It includes throughly cooked grains of my choice - oatmeal for this dog, rice for that, corn for another. It also includes other fruits and veggies, fish, herbs, and dairy.

 

I've arranged it so my big eaters get about 30 to 40 per cent of their kcals from this less expensive portion of their diet. It's also easier to balance the mineral portion of their intake.. Once a 45 pound dog is taking in 1200 kcals a day or more strictly from raw meaty bones/organ/offal/etc, we're talking overages of calcium and phosphorus (not to mention copper and iron depending on the meat) of ten to twelve times the NRC figures recommended.

 

Other low gluten choices for starches could be tapioca, jicama, sweet potato, yam and several other tropical or Asian root veggies.

 

But I see almost identical results in my dogs that are tolerant of grains, between the home prepared grains and a grain free kibble.

[pammyd]

I know some people who are lucky enough to know gamekeepers and hunters who get meat for their dogs that way

 

I mainly feed raw human grade food which works out cheeper for me than kibble

I do worry about how the animals are raised but at least I know what I am giving, kibble could contain anything

eg chicken could be mainly feed and beaks, while these can be part of a varied diet I like the meat I am giving to contain actual meat

 

I would say you are doing great for your dogs, your lamb will be great for them, I can understand that you cannot afford to feed them entirely on it but them getting some will be doing them the world of good

[Wendy V]

I feed CAFO meats purchased mostly at Walmart. It's the best I can do with what I can afford. I can't believe that kibble meats would be from any better source and perhaps worse, if imported from China and the sort. I refuse to feed chicken backs, as I consider them a paultry source of food - mostly bone, not enough meat. I feed mostly chicken leg quarters, ground beef, beef briskets, and organ foods. I also get the chance to feed lots of venison in the winter, as my neighbors know that I will take all leftovers after home processing.

 

I wish that all meats were produced humanely, using sustainable agriculture methods. I would hazard to guess that meats would then be out of price range for many people. That could be good or bad, depending on how you see it, and worthy of long discussion in itself.

[Tea]

Boy I have thought about this alot.

 

We have alot of dogs, but we also have alot of wildlife.

 

We have permits for road killed deer/elk

 

And ask for out of date stuff from the store on Island. That is given to us.

 

Then we use Natural Balance Zoo carnivore diet....you might need a USDA zoo permit for that, but you can ask them?

And of course we use from our own flock.

[juliepoudrier]

Ben,

I have the same concerns as you and for now mine are on a combinattion of raw and kibble. I do raise chickens and could butcher the excess roosters for the dogs. Perhaps if you're already got the facilities for sheep you could purchase a dairy bull calf cheap and raise it and butcher it for the dogs? That's what I'm considering. You could do the same with chickens and other small animals, none of which are terribly expensive to raise and will pay you back with both meat and eggs, in the case of chickens at least (if the mobile butcher you use would process them, great; otherwise you'll just have to learn to do it yourself). During hunting season, talk to all the hunters you know about getting at least the parts they don't want--I get plenty of venison this way and could probably get more exotic meats like bear if I wanted it. Waterfowl hunters might be willing to provide you with ducks and geese that they don't intend to eat. I also take stuff that's been in the freezer too long for human consumption and feed it to the dogs. Over the past two days they ate well on what was either hybrid bass or striper that had been in the freezer a year or so. It wasn't freezer burned, but the humans didn't want to eat it. Likewise as hunting season has started, any venison left over from last year and not yet eaten by the humans is pulled out and fed to the dogs. The barter system might work for you as well. Trade sheep or sheep products to another farmer for beef or goat. You may be limited in your access to other farms because of your location, but that's what I would do here. As I up my freezer capacity, I plan to do more of that.

 

As I noted in another thread, unless you have lots of storage capacity and can buy in bulk, you can't really find cheap raw foods for dogs. In this area, parts that no one wanted are now desired by some, so all prices have gone up. I rarely can find any meat for $1/pound or less. Oh, another thing you could do is look into any co-ops in your area. Or start one if you have the wherewithal, and then you could base it on locally grown, naturally raised livestock--you could probably find farmers who would work with you on price in exchange for guarantees on the amount you'd buy each month.

 

J.

[MrSnappy]

I have to pick and choose my battles. I work for an 'animal rights' organization and everyone in it but me is a vegan, and is leather and wool free etc! No one ever wants to sit with me at lunch ;-) One of the staff members even feeds her dog a vegetarian kibble so she doesn't support the meat industry at all. I'm not sure I think this is totally fair to the dog, although he seems healthy enough.

 

The prepared meat that I buy for my dogs is hormone-free, grain fed animals but I don't know how they are raised before they are slaughtered. I can't speak at all to their chicken backs and turkey necks and the like, which I assume to be factory farmed. It's a fine line - it's my responsibility to feed my dogs a species appropriate diet and I do that as best I can without going broke. It won't do anyone much good if the dogs are well fed on free range, humanely slaughtered animal meats and we all live in a dumpster somewhere.

 

As Wendy points out, when you buy kibble you're supporting the same factory farming industry. I guarantee you your dog kibbles are not made from happy cows who fall apart into bloodless, painless perfectly cut rump roasts and loin chops at random ;-)

 

My point being, unless you are committed to a completely cruelty-free lifestyle, all vegan etc etc, you essentially support some part of the horrible slaughter industry. You have to pick and choose your battles. While I feel really horrible for food consumption animals, I also really like my dogs and want to feed them as best I can within my means.

 

I have been looking for a hunter for some time (god don't tell my boss that!) who would be willing to give or sell me meat for the dogs, but hunters are difficult to come by in urban Vancouver, apparently.

 

RDM

[Lenajo]

I think *any* step you make to improve you dog's nutrition is good. As your choices improve, so does your support of healthy farming. Everybody has different tolerances levels - of income, individual pet needs, etc, so there are no absolutes.

 

Of the choices out there I generally rank it like this: (lowest to highest)

 

please note I do not mention free range. Since that mostly means nothing - animals can still be overcrowed and badly fed, not to mention that the "range" can be a dirty lot...I say why pay for it?

 

lowest:

commercial food with non-human grade raw meaty bone (rmb) - supports commericial factory farming at it's worst, and makes your dog the guinea pig for meat they can't sell as inspected to humans. Full of byproducts, preservatives, and fillers.

 

commerical food with USDA grade rmb - still supports commercial factory arming, but no the 4D meats. Other sources of nutrition in the food still suspect - floor sweeping rice, high grain fillers (corn in particualr)

 

very high quality commercial food with USDA rmb and other sources of nutrition of quality. Definately no corn, grading up to as high as organic meat and vegetiables. still support commercial factory farm. (CFF)

 

cooked commercial rmb and commmercial veg/grains USDA and all human grade, but only that. Some lack of bioavailability of nutrition because of cooking and loss of enzymes. Still supports CFF. increase in available nutrition because of lack of by products and individualized diet selection.

 

raw fed commercial rmb and vegetables/grains - USDA and all human grade, but only that - still suports CFF. Nutrition more biologically available that cooked. Control over individual diet the same as cooked.

 

raw fed organic commercial rmb and organic vegetables/grains - loss of pestitides and chemicals in the raising of veg/grain stops some CFF support, and increased quality of those products nutritionally. Unfortuantley organic rmb does not necessary mean the same...as it can be "organic" and still be completely grain/biologically inappropriately species fed.

 

raw feeding of grass fed rmb from humane farming conditions (not "certified humane", that just AR propaganda,but from farms where you can ascertain the animals live in decent conditions) and the rest of the diet organic. Virtually no support of CFF. Available nutrition very high.

 

highest:

the same diet as above, locally purchased to support the community or at least the region. It's also worth nothing that it's much easier to buy humane when you've looked at the farm your rmb come from.

 

virtually impossible but wonderful: prey model diet. Dog only eats whole prey, raised truly wild, and presented to him whole.

 

~~~~

[JohnLloydJones]

One of the staff members even feeds her dog a vegetarian kibble so she doesn't support the meat industry at all. I'm not sure I think this is totally fair to the dog, although he seems healthy enough.

 

A completely vegetarian diet for a dog is much like a strict vegan diet for people; it can be done, but it may be marginal and requires care to avoid dietary deficiencies. As (lacto-) vegetarians ourselves, I find it hard to discover places to buy raw food (at least at a price that fits my wallet), let alone be choosy about how the animals were raised and slaughtered. Do you carnivorous folks have some tips as to where I should be looking?

[Root Beer]

It's a fine line - it's my responsibility to feed my dogs a species appropriate diet and I do that as best I can without going broke.

 

Exactly! In a perfect world, my dogs would have humanely raised, hormone free, etc. raw meats to eat every day. I certainly do the best I can. My dogs get some humanely raised, organic, hormone free stuff when I can get it reasonably. Most of the time they get what I can find in our local grocery stores.

 

I feel that it's still better than kibble even if it isn't 100% ideal. And I'm not saying that kibble is evil or anything. Raw is just my personal preference to the extent that I can afford to feed it.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I have been looking for a hunter for some time (god don't tell my boss that!) who would be willing to give or sell me meat for the dogs, but hunters are difficult to come by in urban Vancouver, apparently.

 

RDM

 

That is way to funny, I may know of one in Squamish, who's wife works in Vancouver...

 

It is defiantely one of those situations where you are "dammned if you do, dammned if you don't". My other half works for a poultry processing plant, so if I were to swich to raw, this is where I'd get a lot of my meat. He can get cases of whatever for approximately 1/8 of the cost in the supermarket. Most of the poultry does come from Alberta farmers and is grain fed and hormone free, so, that would be the best we could do by us and our dog and still have a good quality of life. One of our local colleges has a butcher program where we could also get a good deal on meets, organs and bones.

 

Slightly off topic, he's mentioned to me that the by products they send to the pet food factories are better quality then that they sell to a certain fast food chain....

[bsms99]

Darn! I feel like a heathen!

 

For the last 30 years, my dogs have been fed Purina Dog Chow and whatever leftovers we have as toppings. Some gobble it down. Some barely eat it, staring at it with suspicion of poison - but then, those dogs do likewise to ham or beef. If it has lessened their energy or performance, I couldn't tell it. I'm now experimenting with a dry dog food that has meat as its largest ingredient vs corn. The pup gobbles it down, as he does anything. The older dog stares at it for a while, then reluctantly eats it - as he does anything else.

 

Cows are cows, and sheep are sheep. They don't exactly have the breeding to dance on mountaintops singing Born Free. Grass fed cattle tend to be tough and dry, just as grass fed deer tend to be.

 

If you're looking for deer meat, just be aware deer don't live great lives either. I've worked with them for feeding studies. They are stupid animals. They live hard lives, filled with hunger and parasites, and then they die - of starvation, disease, getting caught in a fence and eaten alive by coyotes, etc. Elk seem a lot smarter, but they don't live easy lives either.

 

A hunter's bullet is kinder than most deaths, but it is common for deer to be shot and live for a while before dying.

 

If you want humane operations, buy kibble that is mostly plant (Dog Chow?). Pour hamburger grease on it, or top it with cheese or vegetable oil. If your dog is losing weight, feed more or add fat. Protein is absorbed as amino acids. Dogs don't care where they come from.

 

If you want to feed RAW or BARF, that is fine. My Mom used to do it before it had a name. I'll hold off until I see some sign that my dogs aren't thriving on kibble.

[Lenajo]

Grass fed beef around here is as tender as butter. Deer is equally tender, though most people tend to only want certain parts. Mostly because they run out of freezer space after the first 2 or 3 and just want the delicacies.

 

I do agree that there can be parasites in wild meat, but I can't agree about the awful lives in general. Most of the bucks we looked at on the rack this year (we put about a half ton total in the freezer for the dogs thanks to local hunters) had at least a 1/2 inch coating of fat. Sure deer die, but so do farm animals. And a lot of the overuse/abuse of antibiotics is from factory farm situations where they are trying to get past their "premium" animal environments. The difference is the deer that die in the wild of worms just feed the coyotes. The healthier deer will go on to reproduce and that surplus will be on many tables (and in many bowls) next year. The cows they keep alive in the feedlot with antibiotics and hormones just go into us - response ??? You can spend years reading all the literature on that - both proven and speculation.

 

If you want to feed kibble and it suits you, nobody here cares (as least I don't) on that single premise. However there was a lot more discussed here than just what keeps yout dogs fat and slick. Factory farming and commercial agriculture does a lot of damage to the planet that we *all* pay for - nutritionally and environmentally. "Hamburger grease" has to come from somewhere...and it ain't part of a tree or likely even a healthy cow....

 

There has been a lot of arguement all of the world regarding "animals don't care where protein comes from". They don't care - that's right. They are confined, and they are hungry. I'd eat just about anything if I was kept like that as well. Unfortuantely the price can be high...remember when we used to feed cooked sheep to cattle? It's just protein right? Then our species innapropriate cheap and "any protein counts" bit us in the but and a sheep disease jumped species and made people sick.

 

Cancer is epidemic right now as well. Is it all food? or course not. But we can control that part of life...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Darn! I feel like a heathen!

 

For the last 30 years, my dogs have been fed Purina Dog Chow and whatever leftovers we have as toppings. Some gobble it down. Some barely eat it, staring at it with suspicion of poison - but then, those dogs do likewise to ham or beef. If it has lessened their energy or performance, I couldn't tell it. I'm now experimenting with a dry dog food that has meat as its largest ingredient vs corn. The pup gobbles it down, as he does anything. The older dog stares at it for a while, then reluctantly eats it - as he does anything else.

 

Cows are cows, and sheep are sheep. They don't exactly have the breeding to dance on mountaintops singing Born Free. Grass fed cattle tend to be tough and dry, just as grass fed deer tend to be.

 

If you're looking for deer meat, just be aware deer don't live great lives either. I've worked with them for feeding studies. They are stupid animals. They live hard lives, filled with hunger and parasites, and then they die - of starvation, disease, getting caught in a fence and eaten alive by coyotes, etc. Elk seem a lot smarter, but they don't live easy lives either.

 

A hunter's bullet is kinder than most deaths, but it is common for deer to be shot and live for a while before dying.

 

If you want humane operations, buy kibble that is mostly plant (Dog Chow?). Pour hamburger grease on it, or top it with cheese or vegetable oil. If your dog is losing weight, feed more or add fat. Protein is absorbed as amino acids. Dogs don't care where they come from.

 

If you want to feed RAW or BARF, that is fine. My Mom used to do it before it had a name. I'll hold off until I see some sign that my dogs aren't thriving on kibble.

[juliepoudrier]

Any really lean meat is going to be tough if you cook it the same way you cook overfat grain-fed beef. Some of the tenderest meat I've ever eaten has been venison, and we eat quite a lot of it. Grass-fed may not be for you, but consider that you're cooking techniques may be a (large) part of the problem.

 

The deer on our property decimate the huge gardens each year, so I think they must be eating just fine. The two my housemate brought home and butchered were quite healthy looking. Sweeping generalizations are just that: sweeping generalizations.

 

J.

[lrayburn]

I also take stuff that's been in the freezer too long for human consumption and feed it to the dogs. Over the past two days they ate well on what was either hybrid bass or striper that had been in the freezer a year or so. It wasn't freezer burned, but the humans didn't want to eat it.

 

Julie made a good point. I feed my crew freezer burned fish all the time. Usually I vacuum seal fish but sometimes I don't have the time so it goes in ziploc bags. Every couple of months I go through the freezer and anything freezer burned gets cooked up and, over a couple of days, parcelled out to the hounds. They love it and don't seem to care about the freezer burn - heck, they'd gladly eat it half-rotten of the beach if they could get it that way . Wahoo, dolphin, amberjack, king mackerel, the odd little bit of shark - even picky Mr. Ben eats it all.

 

Of course, I'm lucky to get all the fish I do. I pretty much support myself on fish that I catch and my dad's beef but I'm lucky that way. For those of you who do not want to support commercial ag - I encourage you to look within your local community for someone who sells freezer meat. I know that my parents sell their freezer beef at prices that are very competitive to commercial meat. Ask at farmer's markets or food coops. If all else fails, look up the nearest packing house and ask for a referal. I think you are far better off to buy local than spend the extra $$ on organic which in some cases has little to no meaning at this point. Finally, do tell people that you are looking for deer meat - many people love to hunt and will happily donate meat that they have no need for.

 

Lisa

[bsms99]

The deer I've been around were in Utah & Arizona, primarily. Deer that eat from farmers fields are pretty good eating. I've worked deer check stations in Utah where the deer weighed 80 pounds max - I could no more have eaten them than a GSD (which is what they looked like!) In fact, I'd have needed the teeth of a GSD to make a dent in it.

 

Check out deer, at least in the west, in spring. Many starve during winter, and those that survive show the effects. In the west, at least, the factor that limits deer populations is winter feed. Even if you feed your dog wild game, you are feeding an animal that has a tough life. I would just as soon feed cattle or chickens, both of which are bred and raised to be killed, as deer meat. Cattle and sheep aren't humans. I'm not sure humans value freedom over security, but I'm pretty sure cattle and sheep don't!

 

Border Collies were bred to help us raise sheep and cattle to eat. I don't like feedlots or all the stuff that get stuffed into cattle, but I don't want to spend $20/pound for hamburger either. Sorry, but it just seems a bit odd to see a forum dedicated to dogs who help herd food trying to figure out a kinder, gentler way to procure meat for their dogs.

[Maralynn]

Sorry, but it just seems a bit odd to see a forum dedicated to dogs who help herd food trying to figure out a kinder, gentler way to procure meat for their dogs.

 

The two are not mutualy exclusive. We care about animals getting treated humanely - it doesn't matter if they are our pets/working dogs, or the animals that that are raised for meat. I have sheep that are raised for meat/wool. Even though they aren't all pets (just a couple of them!) they are still cared for and treated well.

[vanillalove]

I have to pick and choose my battles. I work for an 'animal rights' organization and everyone in it but me is a vegan, and is leather and wool free etc! No one ever wants to sit with me at lunch ;-) One of the staff members even feeds her dog a vegetarian kibble so she doesn't support the meat industry at all. I'm not sure I think this is totally fair to the dog, although he seems healthy enough.

 

The prepared meat that I buy for my dogs is hormone-free, grain fed animals but I don't know how they are raised before they are slaughtered. I can't speak at all to their chicken backs and turkey necks and the like, which I assume to be factory farmed. It's a fine line - it's my responsibility to feed my dogs a species appropriate diet and I do that as best I can without going broke. It won't do anyone much good if the dogs are well fed on free range, humanely slaughtered animal meats and we all live in a dumpster somewhere.

 

As Wendy points out, when you buy kibble you're supporting the same factory farming industry. I guarantee you your dog kibbles are not made from happy cows who fall apart into bloodless, painless perfectly cut rump roasts and loin chops at random ;-)

 

My point being, unless you are committed to a completely cruelty-free lifestyle, all vegan etc etc, you essentially support some part of the horrible slaughter industry. You have to pick and choose your battles. While I feel really horrible for food consumption animals, I also really like my dogs and want to feed them as best I can within my means.

 

I have been looking for a hunter for some time (god don't tell my boss that!) who would be willing to give or sell me meat for the dogs, but hunters are difficult to come by in urban Vancouver, apparently.

 

RDM

 

This is my main problem. I'm vegan in my diet, but I do find that I use leather products when I ride and I'm not happy about where it comes from but that's the battle I choose to lose. I have a dog who has needs that I am required to fulfill, and if that means sidestepping from my own personal beliefs then so be it. While I don't support the slaughter industry, my dog has to, so off we go to buy a bag of kibble. I try to commit to a cruelty-free life lifestyle as much as I can but in some cases, you just have to lose.

 

It's actually interesting, my parents bought me a book when I went vegan by the title of "A-Z animal products" or something, and it basically lists EVERYTHING on this planet that uses animal products. I'm not sure if it's still common today, but film is made with some animals products. I'm sure there are plenty of vegans who still take pictures. It was an interesting read and I basically ended up feeling like a lost cause.

[juliepoudrier]

Cattle and sheep aren't humans. I'm not sure humans value freedom over security, but I'm pretty sure cattle and sheep don't!

 

Border Collies were bred to help us raise sheep and cattle to eat. I don't like feedlots or all the stuff that get stuffed into cattle, but I don't want to spend $20/pound for hamburger either. Sorry, but it just seems a bit odd to see a forum dedicated to dogs who help herd food trying to figure out a kinder, gentler way to procure meat for their dogs.

 

The point is that it's entirely possible to raise sheep and cattle (and other domestic animals) naturally and humanely. Border collies have traditionally been used to help humans raise livestock in open pasture/range. You don't really need a dog to help you when you've got your animals stuffed in a feedlot, where you're stuffing them full of crap.

 

I raise sheep. They are raised on pasture and live the life a sheep was meant to live--on pasture, moving freely, eating natural foods. And they are also kept secure by good fencing and a good LGD. You can choose to believe that life in a feedlot is suitable for such animals, but many of us do not.

 

I don't get why anyone would be against finding a kindler,gentler way to eat food. My moral/ethical values pretty much require me to do so. And I can actually sell my naturally raised sheep for less per pound than the sheep you find in the supermarket, so I'm not sure where your $20/lb hamburger comment is coming from.

 

No one is hitting you over the head telling you what to feed your dog (or yourself) and how. But those of us who do prefer to be as ethical as possible are certainly within our rights to discuss the ethical feeding methods we prefer.

 

Kayla,

I think most of us recognize that we have to make compromises. In the other thread I mentioned that I do sometimes buy commercial chicken for my dogs, despite my feelings about the chicken industry. I think we all choose our battles and do the best we can given the constraints we all run into in society. If I can afford it, I do my best to buy meats that meet my ethical standards. Every little bit I can do at least encourages more people to produce the kinds of meats I want to buy. The more we can buy locally and help our local farmers out, the more we'll help them stay in business and continue to provide humanely raised meats at reasonable prices. If I can't do it all the time, I at least try to do it as much as I can. Like everything else in life, you do the best you can....,

 

J.

[Laurae]

I don't get why anyone would be against finding a kindler,gentler way to eat food.

 

Because it's much easier to rationalize and thus not take the time and effort required to educate oneself and then act in accordance with what one has learned?

[Shoofly]

So, somewhat back on topic - for the kibble plus raw feeders out there, how do you feed? Two meals per day, one raw? Or just toss some raw in as you can? Feed both together?

 

I'm heading back towards raw but don't want to go off kibble completely, and had some trouble when i tried feeding a combination before, so i'm wondering how you work both in. I really don't want to feed 2 meals per day if possible.

[MrSnappy]

This is my main problem. I'm vegan in my diet, but I do find that I use leather products when I ride and I'm not happy about where it comes from but that's the battle I choose to lose. I have a dog who has needs that I am required to fulfill, and if that means sidestepping from my own personal beliefs then so be it. While I don't support the slaughter industry, my dog has to, so off we go to buy a bag of kibble.

 

Yep. I am a meat-eater and make no apologies for it, though I do struggle with the role I play in the slaughter industry. I watched a video of factory turkey farming the other day that would make your hair curl But being a vegan or even vegetarian doesn't work for me, so while I try to minimize my meat consumption, I doubt I will ever go meat or animal-product free. I would prefer that the animals I am using are slaughtered in a humane fashion after living a reasonably decent life, though it is not always practical to do. I once tried to buy free-range, non medicated, organic ground beef for burgers and when I did the math it worked out to about $11.00 per burger! I can't afford to eat that way. I for sure can't afford to feed my dogs that way.

 

However, there are industries I will NOT support - the fur trade (the trapping of fur-bearing animals / the farming of fur-bearing animals AND the live-skinning of dogs and cats in China) is one of them. I can absolutely live without wearing any kind of fur without making my life difficult or uncomfortable in any way. It may not seem like a big deal, since I'm not really sacrificing anything by not wearing it, but I am one less person that industry can count on as a customer.

 

In Canada, we fish hundreds of thousands of tons of herring out of the water, send the roe to Japan, and landfill the total males outright and bodies of the roe-stripped females. Herring isn't as very sexy fish, so there's no real market for it. It's pathetic. Also, my dogs love herring, and I find hard to locate. Now I know where it all is.

 

RDM

[juliepoudrier]

Robin,

I feed two meals per day, but that was just because I was trying to get Lark eat and put some weight on her. When Willow went on heart meds and lost her appetite, I started feeding her twice a day as well. I'd prefer to feed once, but this is what I'm doing for at least those two. If I wanted to do once a day, I'd probably alternate days, but Polly M. once told me that she viewed raw + kibble the same as spaghetti and meatballs....

 

J.

[bsms99]

Because it's much easier to rationalize and thus not take the time and effort required to educate oneself and then act in accordance with what one has learned?

 

Actually, because the ethical treatment being touted may have more to do with feeling good about yourself than ethical treatment.

 

For example, you can feed standard dry dog food like Dog Chow and use the money you save to support good causes. Dog Chow, IIRC, is mostly corn, grain and animal waste parts. There isn't much there that involves animal suffering. The parts that come from animals would go to waste otherwise, so it isn't like animals are being bred and raised to support Dog Chow.

 

If you go with meat from some source other than a local farm, you will probably be supporting animal suffering of some sort. Deer have miserable lives, and most suffer as they die. Free roaming cattle sounds romantic, but even if I err in believing the cattle don't frolic and sing as they roam, they may well be stuffed into trucks and hauled inhumanely to a slaughterhouse. If you don't have personal knowledge, there is a chance someone will lie to you about how they raise/transport animals.

 

You COULD raise cattle in a happy environment, kill them swiftly in the field, and transport the meat in a way free of chemicals - but the cost will be rather high. It isn't evil to save money - money not spent on one thing can be spent on another. Market efficiency has allowed unprecedented number of people eat meat. Unlike dogs, most people refuse to eat People Chow...

 

I have, until recently, bought standard, largely plant-based Dog Chow. The dogs have all been healthy and happy, and it doesn't support the animal suffering that hunting or buying most beef does. It is, arguably, the most HUMANE food for dogs.