Herding Videos

[jdarling]

 

 

[Sue R]

This is a good reason why I am glad I don't have TV (well, I have one but no antenna or dish, so we just watch movies, training videos, and such).

 

Interesting that the primary woman being interviewed is the one who put the videos on YouTube. Great advertising for them and a venue to get their message out to the masses.

[Chesney's Girl]

I find it more interesting that they are talking about herding and they have a AGILITY lady on there talking about herding!

[Sue R]

Well, just an aside with reference to the color and performance sports thread going on in another topic - at this breeder's website (the "agility lady"), here are some "statistics" based on the photos shown:

 

Males - 7 dogs total shown, 5 of "color" (mostly merle, also red), and 2 black/white (lots of white)

Females - 12 bitches total shown, 5 of "color" (again, merle and red), 3 b/w tri, and 4 b/w

 

On the pedigree page:

 

Males - 10 total shown, 6 of "color" (merle, red), 1 b/w (lots of white), 1 b/w, 2 b/w tri

Females - 12 bitches shown, 5 of "color" (merle, red), 3 b/w tri, 4 b/w

 

Compared to a "normal" population of working-bred dogs, wouldn't this seem to be a rather lot of "color" dogs? Even the tri's are pretty boldly-patterned tri's.

 

My comment here is strictly with regards to the other topic, concerning whether or not "color" dogs are popular and/or marketed to agility and performance sports people.

[jdarling]

Too bad she's not the only one to sell out to these cutesy little pet shows, either. But there is an attitude out there of, "Hey at least herding is getting some recognition." I was talking to a friend of mine recently and said, "I'd rather have no one know about herding than have this kind of piss poor information out there." And it's unfortunate that the one being spotlighted is so far up the AKC's ass, she can't even see straight.

[NCStarkey]

Hello everyone,

 

Thanks, Jodi, for the links to these "enlightening" videos, and if I hear the phrase "do herding" one more time, I am going to barf.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

[stockdogranch]

Thanks, Jodi. Spending an evening reading and commenting on bad Freshman Comp papers, which is what I had been doing before I "rewarded" myself by checking the boards, now seems not nearly as awful as I thought 20 minutes ago. I guess it's all relative. I do appreciate your listing the links in the order that you did--it was very kind of you to sort of ease us into these three clips. The first--not too awful. Number 2--warming up to be pretty bad. But number 3--well, what can I say? I guess that is what happens when one is willing to do ANYTHING for money, no matter how demeaning or degrading or well...whatever. Don't they have a word for that?

 

A

 

ETA: Oh, and if this person has *ever* had a dog work at "a mile or two miles," I'll...oh, never mind. You know what I mean... (muttering to self in total disgust)

[Mojo]

Okay, I am confused by the responses being posted here. According to her website, the trainer in question is a USBCHA judge who runs her dogs in USBCHA Open (albeit, as well as in ASCA and AHBA) and has qualified for the USBCHA Nationals ten years running--from 1995-2005--placing in the top 20 twice, and in the top 50, five times. She also states that she was first overall for the week at the Soldier Hollow Reserve Champion Finals in 2003, among numerous other impressive-sounding accomplishments.

 

So, am I missing something here?? She appears to be plenty qualified to me, even according to the standards (i.e., placing in USBCHA Open) typically set by this Board. Then, from what I can tell in the videos, she just happens to be working patiently with green dogs in a round pen, and with apparently equal patience, has "dumbed" down a discussion of herding and herding dogs to a level appropriate for the featured TV show, which is a local-access, Saturday-morning program intended for the education of young children about various dog breeds and responsible pet ownership...what is so nauseating or demeaning about that? This sure beats entertaining kids with violent cartoons.

[Sue R]

Mojo - I can understand your confusion. I don't think it is so much that this person is not an accomplished handler (she surely appears to be one) but that she is an AKC judge, competitor, and enthusiast and so appears to be selling out the working Border Collie by being an avid AKC supporter and promoter. Since I don't know her personally, that is my presumption.

 

While there are handler/trainers/breeders associated with AKC who are very capable and qualified, I think that most serious stockdog people on these boards would prefer to recommend people who are involved with USBCHA and ABCA, and not AKC. It may be a political issue (supporting USBCHA, and even other venues, and not AKC) rather than a capability issue in some instances. If you feel that AKC and its programs and emphasis are a danger to the working Border Collie, you might not want anything to do with AKC, including patronizing those who promote it and the inclusion/involvement of Border Collies within it.

 

One other issue is the myth that the "herding breeds" are "bred to do herding". So many of these dogs are many generations removed from any selective breeding to work with stock that they have little, if any, natural talent, ability, or instinct to work effectively.

 

Wouldn't it have been nice if they had had a program showcasing real farmers or ranchers utilizing the working Border Collie in a real world situation instead of as another dog sport or hobby? The AKC issue has been discussed so often that I won't go into that any further. You raised good and thoughtful questions.

[Laurae]

Okay, I am confused by the responses being posted here. According to her website, the trainer in question is a USBCHA judge who runs her dogs in USBCHA Open (albeit, as well as in ASCA and AHBA) and has qualified for the USBCHA Nationals ten years running--from 1995-2005--placing in the top 20 twice, and in the top 50, five times. She also states that she was first overall for the week at the Soldier Hollow Reserve Champion Finals in 2003, among numerous other impressive-sounding accomplishments.

 

Karen Moureaux qualified for the Finals for 10 years running? And was Soldier Hollow Reserve Champion in 2003?

Hmm. I had no idea.

[PSmitty]

Laura, Mojo is referring to Robin Elliot, the trainer in the last video.

 

I haven't watched them, so I can't comment yet...

[stockdogranch]

Sue: Right on, as usual; you are absolutely correct in what you surmised. Good explanation of the issues!

 

Laura: Karen was narrating (and from what I understand, she and her daughter, who are big (?) agility people, are "students" of Robin), but the "herder" doing the demos is Robin. She is the USBCHA handler who is "so far up the AKC's ass she can't even see straight" (jdarling, 2008).

 

Mojo: Very sorry to see that you lost Godiva. I know how special she was to you.

 

A

 

Paula and I cross-posted...

[Laurae]

Ah, okay. For a minute there, I thought I was living in a parallel universe or something

[jdarling]

I wasn't talking about Robin, but it's six of one, half a dozen of the other.

 

I guess the thing that blows me away is ... some of the people running their dogs in AKC have a ton of experience in trialing their dogs against real Border Collies in real trials, and have no doubt noticed the difference between those dogs and the Barbie Collies being pranced through an A course -- yet they continue to support the AKC ... in a big way. Amazing. I guess because they can take their dogs, go "High in Trial," appear to be a big shot, make a living training people's dogs to "do herding" in AKC trials, and pity the fool who has to work a real job for a living because they refuse to sell their soul ...

[Bo Peep]

I think I will be running Bliss in these ASCA trials. No never mind to her ability- she has none. But just to give her joy. After all, it's all for the dog NOT for you.

[jdarling]

I think I will be running Bliss in these ASCA trials. No never mind to her ability- she has none. But just to give her joy. After all, it's all for the dog NOT for you.

 

Can someone please explain to me how this is relevant to the topic at hand?

 

No ... no ... nevermind.

 

[Mojo]

Sue, kind thanks for taking the time to clarify--I think I understand the issue, now.

 

Anna, I truly appreciate your condolences. You are right...Godiva was my world. This has been, and continues to be, extremely difficult to bear.

[Amelia]

Cheers all, the problem with these videos is that they play right into the hands of the AKC, which given enough time, will swallow our dogs whole. A dog circling sheep for no apparent purpose in a small pen promotes the AKC "herding" events absolutely, demeans our working dogs and gives people the idea that this is the highest and best use for a border collie. Anything done for the promotion of the AKC is detrimental to our dogs. The AKC is not interested in the wellfare of dogs...any dogs. They are obsessed with power and social ranking based solely on outward appearance, which is the same way they rank their dogs.

 

I've never heard of the narrator in these videos, but the trainer, Robin Penland, can run a dog perfectly well in a field trial. She was reserve at SoHo in 03 (the first year) and likely has qualified for the finals as often as she states on her website. If I'm not mistaken, she's made the finals at Meeker at least once as well. Instead of making every attempt to preserve the working border collie, however, she has chosen to sell out to the evil empire in order to make a living. She told me once that by associating with the AKC and judging their "trials" she was in a position to create change from within. I didn't think she believed that when she said it and I still don't.

[Smokjbc]

I think the major challenge we face, if we are going to be concerned about the public's perception of the working border collies, is that these people featured are accessible. They (the journalists/tv producers/etc) have no idea where to go to be referred to when doing these types of segments and so will go to the most commonly known factor- the AKC/local dog fancier's club. There are plenty of USBCHA only trainers in that area- but because this one is well known to the common doggie sport folks, as opposed to the more isolated (by choice) USBCHA trial folks, then that is what the public is going to see. While I do see this as challenging for us, I'm not sure that it's THAT important to meet them halfway- I think the big trials and the media they get (Bluegrass, Soldier Hollow, Meeker, etc) do the best job at promoting what a working border collie does, however that media does not translate to what a person could do with their own pet border collie or other herding breed.

 

I wasn't offended by anything in the segment- it's just dumbed down "herding" for the masses. I don't think it does that much harm. I'd rather see a USBCHA only trainer featured with students that are trying to trial seriously rather than an agility nut that does "herding" so their dog can "unwind", but I think we are just a little further below the radar when it comes to public media. The real question is whether the issue is worth fixing and at what expense/compromise?

[TAC2]

ETA: Oh, and if this person has *ever* had a dog work at "a mile or two miles," I'll...oh, never mind. You know what I mean... (muttering to self in total disgust)

 

Okay, I'm a newbie here and but I just have to say I agree with Mojo. Taken in its context (and given a lot of the crap on TV anyway) - its really not bad for a children's show, though I agree, it would have been more interesting to add a real farm working BC too. BTW, If you haven't seen it already, check out the youtube video link

--- it's just too cute!

 

As for the comment above, I realize there is some animosity toward AKC "traitors," but in all fairness, go back and read "Sagacity" excerpt from Eminent Dogs, Dangerous Men 164-69 in the BC Culture Section of the USBCC website - down near the bottom about BC Bert working 2.5 miles away.

[Chesney's Girl]

I would venture to guess, since I haven't worked at that distance, yet (I plan to one day in my life have the opportunity to), that it's pretty much up to the dog to know the right thing to do at that distance. I doubt there is much handling going on at that distance.

[TAC2]

I would venture to guess, since I haven't worked at that distance, yet (I plan to one day in my life have the opportunity to), that it's pretty much up to the dog to know the right thing to do at that distance. I doubt there is much handling going on at that distance.

 

I'm adding the quoted text here since I think it is absolutely amazing what these dogs are capable of.

 

"Davey Sutherland is estate manager at Borobil, a 22,000-acre spread in the northern Highlands. Davey's unregistered Border Collies, Bert and Bob, are on identical commands; Bert's "Go Left" whistle is the same as Bob's. The Borobil hills are low, thousand footers, strewn with boulders. One day last fall, Davey brought both dogs along while gathering ewes. Davey lay Bert down, told him "Stay," and proceeded with Bob after the sheep. When Bob brought in the first hirsel, he missed a few, so Davey whistled "Go Back" and Bob found more, but still hadn't them all, so Davey whistled "Go Back" again. The sheep came off a steep ridge, Davey whistled Bob left and right, brought him on, told him "Go Slow." At such distances, mind, he was commanding a dot that was herding glints.

 

When Davey had the ewes down, he started for home but didn't find Bert where he'd left him. That was unusual, but Davey figured Bert had gotten frustrated and gone back to the farmhouse. When Davey and Bob got the sheep put away, no Bert. Before Davey could get worried, a neighbor phoned. "Are you missing a dog?"

 

Anxious to do his part, Bert had taken Bob's first "Go Back" whistle and topped the hill as the second "Go Back" sounded. The first sheep he found were in a neighbor's paddock, and Bert began working the sheep to and fro to Davey Sutherland's whistled commands.

 

The neighboring farmer said it was lucky he knew Bert. He would have shot a strange dog. As it was, the neighbor thought Bert had gone mad, chivvying the sheep back and forth to whistles only Bert could hear, from a shepherd 2 1/2 miles away."

[Chesney's Girl]

But what if your 2 miles away and can't see your dog? Then what? What if their in the woods just half a mile away? You still have to have a dog that knows what its doing.

 

But your right. The rightly bred working Border Collies, once trained are quite amazing dogs, and most are tough to replace.

[jdarling]

Here's an interview of a much different style. LOL! TV Interview

[Tea]

Many times have I sent my dogs out of sight to look for sheep while browsing loose. And the dogs are out of my sight and at a distance, we work in deep forests interspersed with grassland.

 

The dogs are taught over a period of time how to work. Then they depend on their wisdom and experience to help them do their job when by themselves.

 

The dogs that have more instinct bred into them have an easier time figuring this out.

 

But without the instinct, training and experience, I think it would be difficult.