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I think color is a factor for most people in sports or in herding. I am NOT saying color is the ONLY factor.

 

EX:

I only like black/white border collies so I will only go for breeding that have black/white or a good chance at having black/white. (While I have a TON of other critique for the parents and for the type of pup)

 

My sister on the other hand like the different colors of border collies(merles, red/white, etc) so will most likely go for the breeding that will include her prefer color that also fit her other criteria.

 

Either you like "color" border collies or you don't and this will impact on what you buy.

 

Sorry if I am rambling or not making sense I've been working for over 16hrs now and counting.

 

Stella

 

edit for spelling

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I think color is a factor for most people in sports or in herding. I am NOT saying color is the ONLY factor.

For hobbyists, yes, sometimes - depending, as you say, on what they like. For folks who are genuinely serious about stockwork (farm/ranch/trial and even goosedog) and quality breeding, color is not an issue but can be a preference (meaning that while they may like the looks of a certain color or pattern, they will take a good dog of any color or pattern over a not-as-good dog of any other color or pattern).

 

Either you like "color" border collies or you don't and this will impact on what you buy.

And, the sort of pup that people will buy will influence the sort of dog that people will breed and produce. And the sort of dog that people breed and produce will affect the future of the breed in one way or another. So, it is important what sort of dog people chose to buy because, sooner or later, it will have a profound effect on the breed - for better (breeding for quality stockworking ability, soundness, and temperment) or for worse (breeding for color, performance sports, conformation, or the pet market). All you have to do is look at the present state of many breeds, compared to their historical, purpose-bred ancestors, to see that this is true.

 

People can "vote" for the future of the breed with their pocketbooks, so to speak. Use your "vote" wisely.

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Just wanted to add that I have seen SAR people chose pups based on color. I can send you a link privately if you want to see some proof. Whether we admit it or not we are all human and sometimes make decisions with our hearts instead of our brains.

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Whether we admit it or not we are all human and sometimes make decisions with our hearts instead of our brains.

 

True. And few of us make every single decision in life based on truly "perfect" motivations.

 

I truly do think, though, that the more experience a person has in any discipline that involves dogs (stockwork, sports, therapy work, etc.) the less likely that person is to base his or her search for a new dog on color, or any other cosmetic characteristic. That's not to say that color preference won't play in somewhere along the line, especially with all things being equal among puppies in a particular litter, or likely candidates for adoption at a rescue.

 

Of course, there are exceptions to just about anything, but that's the general conclusion that I have come to for the time being!

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I think color is a factor for most people in sports or in herding. I am NOT saying color is the ONLY factor

 

Most people I know that do stockwork with dogs don't choose on color but only on what they want in a working dog. They may start out with a choice but if they stay in it will quickly realize that color does not make a dog beautiful.

All my dogs are b&w long hair. My favorite look of a BC is smooth prick eared dog. Guess the only color prefrence would be I really like black face dogs but would never hold out for either of those choices and only like BFD's cause I happen to own one (not picked by that) and really like him so he's made me partial to them.

 

I just don't know many people in my world that choose on looks unless how they look on the field working.

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I think a lot of working dog people would decide AGAINST a dog based on color. I also think it is generally true that you could take the same hypothetical litter, let's say they have working parents and are a pretty decent breeding, and three of the puppies are red and white and three of the puppies are black and white. And if you offered those puppies to sports people, the red ones would go first, and if you offered them to working people, the red ones would go last last last.

 

All other things being equal, I would choose the red puppy from a nice working litter, because I like red, as long as color had NOTHING to do with the selection of dogs for the breeding. But I know a lot of people would consider taking the red pup to be risky.

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I think a lot of working dog people would decide AGAINST a dog based on color. I also think it is generally true that you could take the same hypothetical litter, let's say they have working parents and are a pretty decent breeding, and three of the puppies are red and white and three of the puppies are black and white. And if you offered those puppies to sports people, the red ones would go first, and if you offered them to working people, the red ones would go last last last.

 

:D I don't know about sport people going for the red/white first! I am mostly a sport home and I would sooo go for the black/white! :rolleyes: So would most of my "sport" friends my sister is the odd one out and would go for the red/white like you.

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I think a lot of working dog people would decide AGAINST a dog based on color.

I agree. I know I personally would never take a merle puppy, even from a working breeding (for reasons I've discussed in threads like "merle explosion"). Like Melanie, I like red dogs because of the association with red dogs I've owned, but when I had a chance to pick a pup out of a litter containing B&W and R&W, I chose a B&W pup. (That said, the specific working line I really like best--4 of my 5 working dogs go back to it--produces red sometimes, so it's not inconceivable that I could end up with another red dog down the line, but I wouldn't choose from a litter bred specifically because it would produce red.) You would be hard pressed to find any working person who would want a mostly white pup either. I know of at least one red youngster from a very nice breeding who was sold on this spring because the big hat who had the litter wouldn't keep a red dog. I don't think that's an isolated case.

 

J.

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There are some lines where the reds have different traits (mostly negative) than the blacks. I would only take a red under duress from those lines, but I would happily take any form of black dog available from the very same litter. In that case, I think it comes down to knowing your lines more than being color biased.

 

I think livestock people, which are also often herding trial people, are like working horse people....we don't want to be saddled up on the "grey mare" unless she's signficantly better than everything else running that day. Having a red dog, or a merle, at a livestock oriented event is like being on the grey mare. You are going to stand out, and if it isn't *very* positive how you do that in terms of performance, then you are going to stand out when you'd rather just well...not :rolleyes:

 

Overall I think livestock people tend to avoid rarities. As we've learned from the natures of all animals, "odd" is just that for a reason. Nothing wrong with one, but breed two together, over and over again...and eventually Mother Nature will bite you square on the behind.

 

Sue was very right in what is popular now, determines what breeds again later. I hate to see the trend towards recessives (reds and dilutes) and merle . In Aussies it has reached the point that a solid colored litter (blacks and reds, or heaven forbid just blacks) has to be darn near perfect for the purpose intended or they will *not* sell. Merle is the color of choice...for pets, for shows (but you can do oc with a black if it has "lots" of chrome etc) So more and more, even working litters must remember to keep the "color variety" in their litters so that they keep up the marketability.

 

eta - there is at least one line of dogs that were workers, and used a great deal of merle. Some of those dogs were very nice, but most that I see anymore were only kept for breeding primarily due to their color. The color issue doubled I daresay, the speed of the loss of the line to the working population.

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:D If there are two border collie pups or adults who are similar in everything except color which would you go for? The black/white or the color?

 

Unless good quality breeding only applies to one color why can't someone choose a quality breeding (Quality breeding to me is breeding for working ability, health clearances, temperament, drive and built, and has produced quality pup) that has a higher chance of having my or your perfer color?

 

:rolleyes: I hope I am clear! I am not saying the only criteria in getting a dog/pup is color (either in herding or sports) but I do think that either subconsciously or consciously that color is a factor in your chose of dog/pup.

 

LOL Even my choice of cats and decor is mostly black and white.... Maybe its just me?!

 

If I were to choose solely base on looks I wouldn't have ended up with Troy-boy! I prefer rough coated black/white with a full white scruff, 1-2 blue eyes, NO FRECKLES, and semi-pricked ears. LOL Actually the pup would most likely look alot like Cressa.

 

Stella

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Stella,

I was recently on a puppy list for a really great cross out of lines I really like (same line I mentioned earlier). The bitch and dog were both black and white and lovely workers. There was a possibility of red pups in the litter because as a recessive gene it has been carried through the lines for generations, showing up occasionally. When I was asked if I was looking for a red pup, my reply was, "I think I'd really have to see the litter and see which pup speaks to me." So even though I am partial to red, and this was a cross that I particularly liked, I wasn't going to commit to a particular pup until I had seen all of the pups. I think most working dog folks are like me. If I particularly liked a red dog from a particular line, I wouldn't turn it down out of hand, but I also wouldn't choose the dog based solely on color.

 

If two dogs were presented to me who were equal in all ways except color, then I might choose a red over a black, but seldom are two dogs equal in all ways.

 

J.

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:rolleyes: If there are two border collie pups or adults who are similar in everything except color which would you go for? The black/white or the color?

 

I would go for the one that I connected with.

 

When we got Speedy, we actually were interested in getting a girl. Speedy connected with us, the girl was very aloof with us.

 

When we got Dean, the one I thought I would go home with - a black and white - was aloof and Dean made the connection.

 

So, I would have no way of knowing which puppy (if either) I would go for without meeting the pups.

 

Note: In this scenario, I am assuming that the breeder is responsible and I have chosen this litter based on good reason and am now at the point where the only thing left is to choose.

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My best connections with dogs has been with those that were chosen for me. I chose the litter, the breeder or someone else who knew me, chose the pup.

 

I believe that it's in any normal dog person's genes to fall in love with whatever puppy they get their hands on :rolleyes: We delude ourselves with our individual puppy selection skills... it's really about selecting a line, then a litter, than a lot of work and a little bit of luck.

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Wendy,

I don't delude myself at all! Like you I choose a particular cross and then take the pup that speaks to me (if for some reason I can't meet the pups, if the breeder is someone who knows me well enough, I'd let them choose for me). I don't go with a lot of preconceived notions about "the pup must be this, or that." I figure if there's some je ne sais quoi that attracts me to a particular pup in the first place, then I'll be all the more inclined to work hard with that pup--through good and bad--because of that connection.

 

J.

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oh I delude myself nicely. I do lots of puppy tests, debating, observing, etc etc etc...and then go back to the pup that sucked on my fingers first anyway.

 

My friends find it hilarious. They say it takes me 30 seconds to pick, then 10 weeks to debate it and give in.

 

Breeder/friend selections were much easier, and usually just as right.

 

Is it easier for you to pick from your own litters for other people? it is for me.

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If there are two border collie pups or adults who are similar in everything except color which would you go for? The black/white or the color?

 

The black one. I would choose against the color. Since I own a red dog and a pie-bald white dog, I have seen first hand how the sheep react differently to a dog of color versus that of a black dog. Some may not agree, but it is my preference.

 

Interestingly though, after a time of owning one, the particularliness of a red color loses distinction over time. In my eyes, it becomes just another dog.

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I would never choose a merle, having been told by someone who would know that heterozygous merles are also likely to have deficits related to depigmentation -- just not as severe as homozygous merles. I do think merles are pretty to look at, but frankly, any dog of mine is pretty to look at in my own eyes.

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No merles for me, definitely. I've passed up pups from breedings i wanted badly because i didn't want a red dog (i might relent on that one, but not on a merle). My eye is drawn to dogs with a fair bit of white on them but the practical side of me veers away from that (less choices of mates when you have to automatically exclude the white factored dogs). That leaves black and white, and more black than white.

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Robin,

Do you think Pip has too much white? LOL! :rolleyes: But you do have a good point--if you don't want to risk pups with a lot of white (and perhaps all white), then having a white-factored dog does limit your breeding choices.

 

Wendy wrote:

Is it easier for you to pick from your own litters for other people? it is for me.

 

I've bred just one litter, and the selections seemed to fall in place. Interestingly, and not color related, but rather appearance related, one of the people on my list wanted a female. There were just two females in the litter and as I also wanted a female, the pick was mine. The other person decided to choose a male pup instead because she didn't want a rough coat (both females were rough) and the male pup she chose was smooth. Pip the great white whale chose me. I was able to pretty much predict who on the list would choose which puppies, but I didn't really pick for anyone else.

 

J.

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Well I do mostly sports with my bcs. I have a black/white and a red merle tri with 2 blue eyes. Guess which one I picked out? Neither! The black/white was a gift for my birthdate (he was from a black tri father and a red mother- which consistently bred black/white dogs) from a working farm.

My second dog- the red merle, was bred from a black/white and a Tri Blue merle. She got EVERY combo under the sun (suprise)- red tri, red merle tri, blue merle tri, black tri, black/white etc. When i approached her interested in the litter because of its WORKING ability (cattle&sheep on lg working operations not small farms/ and obedience), she selected the dog that happened to match what i was looking for best- agile/fast - sport type- not overly sensitive- compatible to a pack setting. I am not even interested in red merles, and i didnt even know he was tri!

So- if you were to come to MY agility competitions- in the Erie/Buffalo/Cleveland/Pittsburg area, you'd find a majority (at least 80%) black/white or black tris. 2 blue dogs, and one red merle, and maybe one red dog. Most people think MY dog is an Aussie, as they are so used to seeing black/white or black tri border collies.

 

Shaneen

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Nearly all the BCS I see at agility comps where I live are black and white or tri. There are a couple of reds and a couple of merles but these are not a common sight.

 

The top handlers mainly go for working bred dogs and these are a mix of short coated and longer coated types and are mainly black and white and tri and many are definitely not what you would call pretty border collies. Their handlers have absolutely no interest in colour and looks and are looking for the attributes that will give them a competitive advantage. They are looking for their next national winner or Agility champion.

 

The top handlers with showbreds have are mainly black and white BCs. Mine is showbred because I didnt know any better and she was looking for a home. Having had expensive problems with a dog (Non BC) with ED, my basic requirements were elbow and hip scoring of parents and grandparents. Colour means nothing to me.

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