Introduction - BC Puppy Coming on Saturday

[TAC2]

Just a quick and brief run down of puppy development between five and nine weeks:

 

Week five, start weaning with soft mushy foods (baby cereal, kibble pureed with goats milk); dominance order begins

Week six, starting soft foods moistened, start giving pups individual attention, reducing bitch's feed to dry up milk this week.

Week seven, complete weaning, curiosity starts, hearing and visual capability completely developed

Week eight, first fear period starts, start recognizing name

Week nine, canine hierarchy develops, improved motor skills, start focusing on people over other puppies, time to separate litter mates, able to begin housetraining

Can be shipped (by air) at 10 weeks.

 

I suspect a lot of breeders let pups go at 6 weeks due to laziness. Preparing puppy feeds twice a day, keeping mom apart, keeping pups contained and/or out of trouble, providing individualized attention and most of all, cleaning up after the litter makes them want the dogs out the door. Raising a litter is fairly easy while the bitch is doing all the feeding and cleanup, but it quickly gets harder and more expensive when the human has to do the job.

[jdarling]

Win,

 

Are you getting your puppy from this breeder? If so, you might want to tell them that there is another kennel with the same name in Minnesota.

 

Jodi

[MrSnappy]

The coloring is interesting since they're not bred for color. The male is black and white the female red. The coloring is by no means symmetrical. It certainly wasn't a puppy mill, just a couple that likes dogs.

 

Not bred for colour? They mention colour all over the website, and attach the word "rare" to the colours a lot too. I see no black and white females - all their female dogs are "rare" colours themselves. Also not a single mention of working their dogs.

 

I think it's safe to say they breed for colour!

 

RDM

[SoloRiver]

The dam isn't red, she's lilac. There are, however, red flags all over this website. If I were you, I would run, not walk, away from this breeder.

[stockdogranch]

Hi, Win. While your choice of breeder is certainly just that--your choice--I will agree with RDM and Melanie that there are a lot of red flags with this particular breeder. First, three litters a year is a LOT, at least to me (for example, I train dogs to work livestock and compete at a national level (USBCHA). I bred a litter almost three years ago, and am now preparing to breed again--so rather than three a year, I'm breeding once every three years, if that). Also, as noted, it seems that they really *are* breeding for color, as all their females are "rare" colors. Their website mentions that their pups have "ancestors from Scotland and England," but that really doesn't mean very much--there are lots of dogs being bred for all the wrong reasons that have ancestors from the UK back in their pedigrees; that does not necessarily mean that these people are breeding dogs for the "right" reasons. You mention that you have been diligently reading the boards, so I would assume you've read the sticky "READ THIS FIRST" at the top that discusses why a Border Collie should be bred ONLY FOR A HIGH LEVEL OF WORKING ABILITY. Now, I know you said you were not going to work your dog on stock, and that's totally cool, but to purchase a pup from a breeder who does not breed for a high level of working ability only supports taking the Border Collie (further) down that slippery slope to mediocrity. The things that people love about the Border Collie are those traits that have been selected for in breeding for working ability, and it just so happens that doing so has produced dogs that are great at a lot of things, including being a very cool pet. There was a great thread a while back, I believe Melanie started it, the title of which was something like, "Sports breeding--can anyone make a case for it?" I think it's in the Politics section, and if you do a search, you should be able to find it. It would make interesting reading at this point for you (maybe someone with better computer skills than I can find the link and post it).

 

So I know I'm really being a wet blanket, as you came on here thrilled that you had found a pup, and I'm sure just wanted to hear lots of great congratulatory things and how cute she is and all that. And by now you're probably at least a little bit emotionally attached to that pup, and after all, who the heck are RDM and Melanie and I to tell you that there might be problems with this breeder? We're just people who have been around BCs for a long time, and care very deeply about the future of the breed *as a working dog.*

 

A

[SS Cressa]

Not bred for colour? They mention colour all over the website, and attach the word "rare" to the colours a lot too. I see no black and white females - all their female dogs are "rare" colours themselves. Also not a single mention of working their dogs.

 

I think it's safe to say they breed for colour!

 

RDM

 

Just to father(sp?) your point. The kennel most of her dogs come from breed for and I quote

 

We do love our dogs

at S**** C*** R****

 

We breed for Tri Colored, Reds, Split face, and Standard Patterns

We get them with Blue Eyes, Brown Eyes, and Hazel too.

Some of our dogs have Wales Scotland and Ireland on their papers

 

LOL I am kinda disturb I have never seen a kennel that came right out and said basically we breed for color! 0_0

 

On the side note other then their stud have his hip checks do they have any of their other health clearances? What about the girls?

 

How are they at herding/agility/or etc... The male like agility but how is he doing? (Not sure if I make sense)

It said he quiet in the house and truck (LOL) but how is he outside? Sorry I just thought it was a weird statement. Also what are the girl doing? any training? other then looking pretty

 

Stella

 

Cute pup tho!

[Sue R]

I also went to the website and share the same concerns as voiced above.

 

As much as these folks "love" the dogs, they are breeding for the "rare" colors that appeal to the pet/sport market and not to produce high-quality working ability dogs.

 

As for ancestors from Scotland, England, and Ireland - that can be said about any Border Collie, because they originated in Scotland and were bred throughout the UK and Ireland. Even having recent generations imported is no guarantee of quality.

 

What Anna says is a succinct explanation of concerns about this breeder and this sort of irresponsible breeding, if this is indeed the breeder of your pup.

[Jack & Co.]

The things that people love about the Border Collie are those traits that have been selected for in breeding for working ability, and it just so happens that doing so has produced dogs that are great at a lot of things, including being a very cool pet. There was a great thread a while back, I believe Melanie started it, the title of which was something like, "Sports breeding--can anyone make a case for it?" I think it's in the Politics section, and if you do a search, you should be able to find it. It would make interesting reading at this point for you (maybe someone with better computer skills than I can find the link and post it).

 

A

 

Here is the thread that Anna mentioned.

[jdarling]

To even call this breeder a "sport" breeder is a stretch, at best. Sport breeders generally have some sort of "success" with their dogs, and have some sort of goal in mind for the litters they are producing. (Granted, most of us wouldn't agree with any of their goals or the purpose behind their breedings, as can be seen from that thread.) From the website, it doesn't seem like this breeder does anything with her dogs, other than produce candy colored puppies.

 

In 2006 we were very fortunate to purchase Jake from [another "breeder"] in Bakersfield, California. Jake is a split face with two beautiful blue eyes and an intelligent, focused personality. He's athletic but also quiet in the house and truck. Jake has ancestors

from Ireland and Scotland on his ABCA pedigree. Jake has been started on some agility and loves it. Many of his relatives successfully do agility and fly ball as well as herding. Owners of his puppies continually contact us saying how happy they are with their puppy, how smart they are and what great family dogs they make.

 

So basically what this says is:

 

"Here's Jake. He's pretty. He does nothing, but his relatives do. He's bred nicely because his ancestors come from a different country and he must be worth it because he's registered with the ABCA."

 

And the most amazing thing -- people are happy with his puppies because they are so smart! Wow! How unique! A smart Border Collie puppy!

 

Sadie came from Oklahoma City in 2005. She is a chocolate and white. Bred to SCR Just Jake she has had mostly chocolate and white puppies with a few black and white. Sadie is expecting a litter in early November. Her puppies are exceptional beautiful and well conformed with gorgeous heads and nice ear sets. Sadie has a very strong herding instinct. This will be her last litter for a year as she's had two litters back to back.

 

"Sadie has a very strong herding instinct." What on Dog's green Earth does that mean????

 

We returned [the "breeder"] in Bakersfield, California again in 2008 to purchase SCR Lucy. Lucy is a Tri-Color Border Collie who also has ancestors on her papers form Ireland and Scotland. Lucy is just a puppy herself so won't have any puppies available until 2010.

 

They already have plans to breed a puppy in a couple of years ... why? Because it has a uterus!

 

Sad.

 

J

[LyndaB]

Poor Win - but these people here know what they are talking about, and I would take their advice.

 

So sorry!

 

The red flag for me was the 6 wk issue - and the colour does nothing for me anyhow - walk away.

 

:hug:

 

Just a thought - why are their pedigree listings only available on request? My pup's breeder had easy availability to all her pedigree charts.

[jdarling]

Most people don't know you can go to sitstay and create an HTML file for your dog's pedigree and put it up on a website. Alternatively, they don't think to take a photo of the pedigree and post it that way, either. I wouldn't put too much stock into the fact that the pedigrees aren't up there. With how proud they sound of the fact that there's imported dogs in them, I am sure they would love to plaster them all over the web -- if they could figure it out.

[Indydog]

Oh, that's nothing! Our Portie would have had that bed in shreds and the plastic bag into confetti! And all in under 30 seconds

BTW - love the stenciling on the wood floors, very pretty.

 

Thanks. The stenciling is acutally a clear plastic sheet we got from home depot. It makes clean up easier and protects the wood floor from the pen.

[beachdogz]

I am so glad you are listening regarding the 6 week thing. I got sort of panicky when I read that. In our state, it is ILLEGAL to sell a dog under 7 weeks of age. You should check what your state's requirements are. Most breeders won't even consider selling under 8 weeks, and many of the good ones keep them a little longer. The reason is that those last two weeks (between 6 and 8 weeks) are CRITICAL to the dog's social/behavioral development. They learn so much at this time from mom and from interacting with their litter mates. I charted behavior problems in my obedience classes for years, and I can tell you that most every dog with a true behavior problem was gotten at 6 weeks of age or (gasp!) under.

 

Re two dogs - I agree with others who said that you should wait and then get a second dog. It is really nice to raise the first one exclusively and you will learn so much. Also, some people have had sibling rivalry problems when getting two from a litter (although others have not had such an issue.) When you are ready for the second one, I have found this (although this is just my personal opinion): Two dogs are not any more work than one dog. However, when you add the third, you notice it! It's certainly not impossible...many of us have lived with multiple dogs...but over two is a lot more time and energy.