Dog Food

[DJF]

I was wondering what dog food most people feed. I am feeding evo right now but I don't know if my dogs have the correct kind of energy for working. I compete with them, use them on the farm, and all that, but I don't know if the "no grain" dog food is right. I used to feed a dog food that had some grain in it and found that my dogs had adequate endurance and were able to think clearly and perform at a high level.

 

I don't know if the current dilemma is due to the change in location, exercise or food, so I was interested in the food that others are finding to work for them.

 

Thanks!

[Chesney's Girl]

While I don't feed EVO, I do not feed my dog grain, and I find him to have adequate stamina and endurance. I feed my dog raw and he doesn't get any kind of carbs (grain). From the reading that I have done and nutrition classes I have taken, carbs burn hot and fast, and when the carbs are burned the dog seems to "hit the wall" until the body breaks down stored protein to use for energy, which at first is harder since the dog isn't used to it. Once the dog is used to burning protein only for energy you don't have a dog that will hit that energy wall. It might be a fact of the dog not used to burning protein for energy and this is the lack of stamina you are seeing in your dogs, or it could be as simple as they are not as well conditioned.

[D Strickland]

I was wondering what dog food most people feed. I am feeding evo right now but I don't know if my dogs have the correct kind of energy for working. I compete with them, use them on the farm, and all that, but I don't know if the "no grain" d.........

Thanks!

 

I've been feeding RAW ( raw meat and bone ) for 6 years now. Every once in a while I'll throw in some Taste of the Wild dog food ( it's grain free ).

 

I've tried switching back to kibble 3 times in the last 4 years and, even though my dogs would eat the kibble, I saw a change in the way they worked and learned. After about 2-3 weeks they would loose that focus and energy I love them for so I had to go back to RAW.

 

Stools are smaller, eyes and ears are clean, breath is fresh, teeth are white, focus is great, and their energy is awesome. No kibble can duplicate that.

 

Stay away from pre-packaged raw food as they are EXTREMELY expensive.

 

I rescue BCs once in a while ..... I took the last one I rescued to my vet. My vet said that this approx. 4 yr old dog needed to have her teeth cleaned because they were horrible..... so I said OK and went home. Spent 8 days feeding her a diet of meat and bones and went back to the vet. My vet got mad because she thought I took her somewhere else to get her teeth cleaned !!!! So now my vet doesn't like RAW because it's taking money away from her practice. LOL

[DJF]

Do you have a recipe for raw or do you vary it?

[Chesney's Girl]

My feeding of raw is usually a variety of protein sources which can be anywhere from chicken to lamb to venison (if we can be lucky enough to find it) and occasionally fish with good omega3s. Most of the raw meaty bones my dogs get are chicken bones and lamb bones (that are not weight bearing) and the organs they get are mostly liver (most important) kidney, spleen, green tripe, lung, and trachea. The ration of meat, bone and organs for me is usually 65% meat, 20%-25% meaty bones (like chicken quarters) and 10%-15% organs.

 

If you do a search on the forum, there is lots of information on raw here.

 

Good luck!

[bsms99]

FWIW - I've never fed a dog anything except dry dog food, typically Purina. If I have leftovers, I'll add 'toppings'. If there was any harm to them, I've never seen it.

[Shetlander]

If you do a search on the forum, there is lots of information on raw here.

 

You can also search diet, kibble, dog food and get lots of information if you are thinking about continuing to feed kibble and looking for a good brand.

[Chesney's Girl]

FWIW - I've never fed a dog anything except dry dog food, typically Purina. If I have leftovers, I'll add 'toppings'. If there was any harm to them, I've never seen it.

 

But since you say you have not fed anything else then how can you compare if your dogs really did do their best on that food? Maybe you could have helped your dogs be even healthier. Just a thought

[Bo Peep]

I'm a "kibble gal" I feed Dog Lovers Gold. My dogs are doing great on it. Firm stools, maintaining a great weight- I'm very well pleased. I just don't like the mess of RAW. Call me lazy.

[LyndaB]

I don't understand how they can get the full spectrum of vitamins needed on a raw diet? My friend does raw, and then adds joint supplements/etc - why not get a good quality kibble which provides all of this.

 

We are using GO! Natural - which apparently is cereal-free and full of the vitamin and dietary requirements needed for good health.

 

I have always fed my collies kibble, and they have all lived good, healthy and long lives, with excellent teeth and never had bad breath! My faithful buddy died suddenly last month, he was 13 and was extremely fit and strong - the vet couldn't believe his age - and it was cancer that took him. I don't think any diet on earth could prevent that? Even so, just that morning, he was running alongside the ATV, doing his job. Therefore I'm quite happy with a kibble diet.

 

However, I have an open mind and would like to learn more about raw diets, but as I say, am not completely convinced as yet.

[Shetlander]

I don't understand how they can get the full spectrum of vitamins needed on a raw diet? My friend does raw, and then adds joint supplements/etc - why not get a good quality kibble which provides all of this.

 

I don't feed raw but one big benefit I can see is having control over the ingredients in your dogs' food. Who knows where everything in commercial food is from any more? It may be produced in the US but with ingredients from all over the world.

 

Also, some dogs like my Quinn can not handle processed food -- no matter how holistic and fantastic. I know because I had Quinn on a wide variety of holistic and fantastic kibbles. He is on a home made diet doing quite well. Others have opted in this type of situation to feed raw.

[Chesney's Girl]

I'm a "kibble gal" I feed Dog Lovers Gold. My dogs are doing great on it. Firm stools, maintaining a great weight- I'm very well pleased. I just don't like the mess of RAW. Call me lazy.

 

If you are pleased then great, but you can't say for sure that your dogs are as healthy as they ultimately could be, maybe they are, but until its given a try you don't know . The OP isn't satisfied with what kibble is doing for their dog, which is why I made the comment about feeding kibble.

 

I don't understand how they can get the full spectrum of vitamins needed on a raw diet? My friend does raw, and then adds joint supplements/etc - why not get a good quality kibble which provides all of this.

 

Most of the vitamins and minerals listed on the bag of dog food are present in different amounts of different kinds of raw meat and the organs you feed. If you feed a whole animal over time (say a month) then your dog is getting all those vitamins and minerals present in dog food. Usually in kibble it is fortified with those vitamins the dog needs because when cooked and processed the composition of the vitamins and minerals can be compromised.

 

Supplementing is only needed if you don't have access to a variety of food. If you are feeding meaty bones and there are ligaments attaching a joint bone you feed, there really is no reason so give joint supplements (unless there is already a problem, which in that case the supplement would be needed feeding kibble too). I think that's over kill and more work.

[LyndaB]

but you can't say for sure that your dogs are as healthy as they ultimately could be, maybe they are, but until its given a try you don't know .

 

Same could said be to you though!..... is your dog as healthy as it could be if it were fed kibble instead?

 

I'm still not convinced. From what I have read so far, it is a matter of personal preference.

 

Thanks for the info you provided though, it makes sense what you say - however where are the scientific facts/benefits of raw opposed to kibble?

 

I can only go by the wonderful condition of my dogs and don't feel they could be any better. If there were scientific, fact-based results of the raw diet, supporting that it is a superior method of feeding, I would consider it - however I'm still not any more persuaded by just basing it on opinions of individuals.

 

One of my dogs in the past used to have great difficulty in digesting bones - and in fact I stopped feeding any kind of bones afterwards because of that. I suppose that is why I'm a little wary of feeding a raw diet.

 

I'm still keeping trying to keep an open mind though

[bsms99]

Here's an anti-raw link...sounded fairly reasonable:

 

http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A...090301/1183/LIV

 

One that is not anti-raw:

 

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/barf.html

 

I don't eat what chimps eat, and I don't feed my dogs what wolves eat. I think the key is to observe your dog and adjust as required. If the dog has a good coat, plenty of energy and muscle eating dry, why change? Trust me - a lack of energy/listlessness has NOT been a problem with any of my dogs. But if you run into problems, pull BARF out of your bag of tricks. If you have a high performance dog (serious athlete type), a mix of both might make sense.

[LyndaB]

Here's an anti-raw link...sounded fairly reasonable:

 

http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?A...090301/1183/LIV

 

One that is not anti-raw:

 

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/barf.html

 

Very helpful thank you, I'll have a good read. I totally agree with your comments too.

 

Again, so far, I see it all as a matter of preference - no dog on the BARF is suddenly living to 20 or developing anything over and above those on kibble, or vice versa.

 

Apologies to DJF for kind of taking over the thread!

[Liz P]

While I don't feed EVO, I do not feed my dog grain, and I find him to have adequate stamina and endurance. I feed my dog raw and he doesn't get any kind of carbs (grain). From the reading that I have done and nutrition classes I have taken, carbs burn hot and fast, and when the carbs are burned the dog seems to "hit the wall" until the body breaks down stored protein to use for energy, which at first is harder since the dog isn't used to it. Once the dog is used to burning protein only for energy you don't have a dog that will hit that energy wall. It might be a fact of the dog not used to burning protein for energy and this is the lack of stamina you are seeing in your dogs, or it could be as simple as they are not as well conditioned.

 

Looks like you have been reading some of my old posts Yes, carbs provide the initial burst of energy, but FAT is what dogs fall back on. Countless well backed studies have shown that all canine athletes have a minimum protein requirement to keep muscles and connective tissue strong. Dogs fed diets too low in protein have a significantly higher rate of injury and return to working condition more slowly than dogs fed adequate protein. Dogs who compete in sports like flyball, agility, and dog sled sprint races generally do just fine on diets with moderate levels of carbs (but NOT at the expense of protein). Dogs who work all day on a farm (hours at a time), do SAR, run long distance dog sledding races, etc need to get more of their calories from fat.

[Chesney's Girl]

Same could said be to you though!..... is your dog as healthy as it could be if it were fed kibble instead?

 

But see here's where I can't agree with you. We had a sheltie before I had my Border Collie and I can come to the conclusion that from what I have seen with her health and the health of my dogs now, I will not go back to feeding kibble unless it be completely necessary. Chesney and Tucker were fed kibble (canidae and then EVO) for the first year and a half of their lives, which is adequate time to see the effects of what a food will do for a dog. When I switched them to raw the improvements were hard not to notice. Their teeth became clean again, their coats blew out and grew back in healthier than before, their energy levels didn't increase but their stamina (mental and physical) increased, and they lost their doggie smells. For me, to see those changes in dogs that young and most kibbles will present a healthy dog, proved to me that there are better ways to feed a dog than high quality kibbles.

 

But to his their own, I was offering helpful suggestions to try to let others see that there might be something better than what they are doing now. Whether you improve your dogs health or not, it doesn't effect what I do to help my dogs be at the healthiest they can be in their life.

 

Looks like you have been reading some of my old posts Yes, carbs provide the initial burst of energy, but FAT is what dogs fall back on. Countless well backed studies have shown that all canine athletes have a minimum protein requirement to keep muscles and connective tissue strong. Dogs fed diets too low in protein have a significantly higher rate of injury and return to working condition more slowly than dogs fed adequate protein. Dogs who compete in sports like flyball, agility, and dog sled sprint races generally do just fine on diets with moderate levels of carbs (but NOT at the expense of protein). Dogs who work all day on a farm (hours at a time), do SAR, run long distance dog sledding races, etc need to get more of their calories from fat.

 

Ahh Good addition Liz. I have actually in the last year went back and re-read some of Chris O's old posts on the Yahoo Rawfeeding list. There is more information on that list than one would know what to do with.

 

And FWIW Raw feeding is different than BARF in my mind. BARF tends to include the use of veggie mush to off set the over feeding of bone. Raw feeding is a simple way of feeding healthy raw foods, it doesn't require the inclusion of veggies because the amount of bone is more tolerated by a dog and not making them constipated.

 

"If the ingredients are known ingredients that you as a human would like to eat, then it's a good food," he said.

This is a quote from the first article... What I don't understand is why you would compare a humans diet needs and tastes and what they can tolerate to that of a canine. I know Chocolate and wine are good enough for human consumption but I would never think it to be healthy for my dogs. Plus, if people are worried about bacteria from raw feeding their dogs, the ratio of dogs being fed raw and being sick from salmonella or E.Coli is far less than people having to take their dogs to the vet and putting them on these high priced prescription diets because their dogs have allergies.

 

I think the hardest thing people have about accepting the myths about feeding a dog raw is they are trying to compare their dogs to what or how people eat. Dogs don't have the same digestive abilities as humans and vice versa.

 

Try reading some information on this Yahoo group from people who have been doing RAW feeding for years with multiple generations of dogs, I think you will find the information and research that these people have done, interesting.

Raw feeding Yahoo Group

[Chesney's Girl]

Also for those that want to compare BARF fed diets to that of simply RAW fed diets, here are some RAW sites, not barf.

 

http://www.rawlearning.com/

 

http://www.rawfeddogs.net/

 

And my favorite for the people who are convinced cereal is best for their dogs.

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/

 

Sorry none of them are scientific, but since I can't find any scientific advice that proves kibble is better for my dog based on what I see with the results of my experiment of feeding raw, I'll stick to the opinions of people who have seen the same awesome results I have with multiple dogs over decades.

[LyndaB]

And my favorite for the people who are convinced cereal is best for their dogs.

http://www.rawfed.com/myths/

 

 

I don't think I have said anywhere that cereal is best. The kibble I feed contains NO cereal. (Here is my feed: http://www.petcurean.com/index.php?page_id=1# )

 

However, I have already learned something from this discussion, in that 'Raw' is different to 'BARF' - in my ignorance I hadn't known that it was two different feed regimes. Great thread guys.

 

Although I would like to add, that when I took my elderly dog to the vets for his yearly check-up (we came from England, so he was a new vet for us) he could not believe Tanna's age. He also called in his veterinary assistants to take a look at Tan's teeth. He had superb teeth, no plaque and very healthy, and the vet said he had never seen such good teeth in a dog of his age. He had been fed kibble all his life and only ever given rawhide chews or so called 'dental' chews.

 

I shall look forward to reading all these links though!

 

Until I find scientific evidence which supports a certain feed over another - based on MY experiences - I'm still with the kibble.....

[Mark Billadeau]

The best food is the one that your individual dogs do the best on. Every dog, like every human, has individual body chemistry. This means there isn't a one food that is best for all. Most scientific articles on raw feeding focus on the public health risks due to bacterial shedding.

 

Some other reading:

 

The Nutritional Requirements of Exercising Dogs

Richard C. Hill

The Journal of Nutrition Vol. 128 No. 12 December 1998, pp. 2686S-2690S

Commercial diets. Sled dogs appear to require a high protein (>30 or 40% of energy), high fat (>50% of energy) diet. Most extruded diets contain >25% of energy as carbohydrate. These extruded diets must, therefore, contain either <30% of energy as protein or <50% of energy as fat. High protein, high fat canned diets added to extruded diets before and during periods of heavy exercise may improve the stamina of working dogs, but increased cost can be prohibitive. Alternatively, adding beef to extruded diets increases dietary protein and fat because beef contains 25-40% of energy as protein and 60-75% of energy as fat (Anonymous 1997). Greyhounds, however, appear to require a moderately high fat (30-50% of energy), moderate protein (24% of energy) diet. It is possible, therefore, that a commercial extruded diet with this formula may give better performance than a high protein meat-based recipe.

Working Border Collies likely have dietary requirements between sled dogs and racing Greyhounds.

 

Optimal Nutrition for Athletic Performance, with Emphasis on Fat Adaptation in Dogs and Horses

DAVID S. KRONFELD PAMELA L. FERRANTE AND DOMINIQUE GRANDJEANÃ

J. Nutr. 124:2745S-2753S, 1994.

 

Protein quality of various raw and rendered by-product meals commonly incorporated into companion animal diets

K. R. Cramer, M. W. Greenwood, J. S. Moritz, R. S. Beyer and C. M. Parsons

J. Anim Sci., doi: 10.2527/jas.2006-225

 

Raw and Rendered Animal By-Products as Ingredients in Dog Diets

Sean M. Murray, Avinash R. Patil, George C. Fahey Jr.3, Neal R. Merchen, and Denzil M. Hughes*

The Journal of Nutrition Vol. 128 No. 12 December 1998, pp. 2812S-2815S

 

A Comparison of the Nutritional Adequacy of Home-Prepared and Commercial Diets for Dogs

Erin L. Streiff, Bettina Zwischenberger*, Richard F. Butterwick, Elisabeth Wagner*, Christine Iben* and John E. Bauer3

J. Nutr. 132:1698S-1700S, June 2002

Purported risks associated with feeding HPD include the consumption of high energy density diets without increased nutrient density. However, the present study found that both HPD (home prepared diet) and CD (commercial diet) were not different in energy content. In spite of energy content similarities, potential nutritional concerns with HPD were that some macrominerals, fat-soluble vitamins, including antioxidants, and trace minerals, potassium, copper and zinc were below AAFCO recommendations. Thus, these nutrients should be carefully evaluated when considering feeding HPD.

 

Mark

[Wendy V]

Chesney,

 

I thought you did a wonderful job explaning raw and its benefits, raw vs. BARF, raw and vitamin suplements, etc. Chris O. on the rawfeeding list is a master communicator as well. All the information is there if people are interested. If not, then so be it.

[Mark Billadeau]

Lysine Content in Canine Diets Can Be Severely Heat Damaged

Pamela A. Williams, Suzanne M. Hodgkinson, Shane M. Rutherfurd and Wouter H. Hendriks

J. Nutr. 136:1998S-2000S, July 2006

The protein quality of a food is the product of its amino acid content and the nutritional availability of these amino acids. Heat processing has been shown to have a negative impact on the nutritional value of the amino acids in animal feeds (1,2). In foods that are heat processed or stored for long periods of time, the free -amino group of lysine can react with the carbonyl group of other compounds such as reducing sugars. The complex that is formed (Maillard complex) may be partially absorbed but cannot be utilized by the animal (3). Moreover, a proportion of the complexes formed can revert back to lysine during conventional amino acid analysis, which does not occur in the digestive tract of the animal. This results in an overestimation of the amount of lysine that is available to the animal if it is determined using conventional methods. A method in which the lysine content with a free -amino group in foods is measured [such as the O-methylisourea (OMIU)-reactive lysine assay] provides a superior estimate of the lysine available to the animal (4).

 

The production of commercial pet foods can involve heat treatments including sterilization, extrusion, cooking, and baking. During these heat treatments and the subsequent storage of the food, Maillard complexes may form, thereby reducing the availability of lysine for the animal. In addition, most pet food manufacturers use by-products of the meat, fish, and milling industries as primary ingredients, which, because of the processing required in their manufacture, can include lysine with a blocked -amino group. Although some pet foods are formulated using large proportions of non-heat-treated ingredients such as meat, lamb, rice, and corn, the manufacture of pet foods still promotes a reaction between the -amino group of lysine and other compounds. Although pet foods are extensively heat treated, little research has been conducted into the effects of the various heat processes on the nutritional value of pet foods.

 

Bottom line, extrusion lowers the bioavailability of the lysine in commercial diets AND the current lysine measurement used on dog food does not distinguish between bound and free (bioavailable) lysine.

 

Mark

[Shetlander]

The best food is the one that your individual dogs do the best on. Every dog, like every human, has individual body chemistry. This means there isn't a one food that is best for all.

 

Exactly. Quinn was diagnosed with IBD last year and after conventional treatment only seemed to be making matters worse, I took him to a holistic vet. I thought for sure she'd put him on raw but she didn't feel his very messed up system could handle it. Instead, he is on a premix with lots of uncooked grains (oats, barley, rye) and cooked meat. The improvement was immediate and dramatic. His issue wasn't grains or much in the way of allergies (other than potatoes), but rather processed foods of any type.

 

I think we sometimes need to be careful not to get caught up in what "should" be best for our dogs.

[Chesney's Girl]

Mark,

 

Thank you for your information. And I couldn't agree more with what you stated. Every dog should be fed with what they do best on. My reason for stating what I said that sparked the discussion was that you can't say your dog is doing best on one thing if you have not tried another. They can be doing good, but there is a possibility they could do better. That said, I only tried two kibbles with my dogs, maybe I should have tried 5 or 6 more, but I found something that my dogs did significantly better on then the two high quality kibbles they were fed.

[Mark Billadeau]

Until I find scientific evidence........

BTW, everyone by now should know this kind of statment will peak my interest and likely a response with links.

 

Mark (geek)