TREE is KILLIN me

[Boon]

Hey Hey,

 

About 3 weeks ago I was throwing disc with Blue in our back yard; all was good till an errant throw on my part had the disc end up in the Pecan tree. No big deal, I have a case of 100 of the same discs we train with and change out all the time when they get a few too many teeth marks. Well he fixated on the disc in the tree, and showed little interest in continuing our play so I shut it down and retrieved the disc from the Tree.

 

Since then when in the back yard he is obsessed with the tree:

 

First week it was “mild” just trotting around it looking up, I could call him off easily so didn’t seem like a big deal. We could still play and he was fine going after disc.

 

Second week it got “medium” he would still trot around it looking up but if I wasn’t visible to him he would not break off. We could still play disc but he was definitely distracted. But any other place we would play he was fine, progressing very well and having a good time.

 

Third week is “HOT”; it is like a drug and he cannot help himself. I have no IDEA what to do, it’s to the point it makes me angry. Yesterday I had to physically pull him off, I put him on the ground and yelled “OFF” but the second I let him go he went right back to it. It’s almost like the more he senses I am angry the more he wants to do it. He is a very smart dog but I cannot figure out how to break this “habit/obsession”?

 

I’ am loosing my mind over this, any suggestions would be appreciated!

[Jack & Co.]

Most pecan trees around here are loaded with nuts. Any chance the tree is also full of squirrels?

[afrancis]

I first thought TREE was the name of your dog!

Did he see you retrieve it from the tree or did you do it when he was elsewhere? Could it be that he still thinks the original frisbee is up there? I know from experience that they have incredible memories; Skye will remember exactly where a found ball is that I've told her to leave on any one of our walks, no matter how much time has passed, and will instantly be off to find it.

If he didn't see, try putting the frisbee you're playing with up and taking it down while he watches to help him put two and two together.

Alternately if he did see you take it down, try playing hide and seek with him and the frisbee. Slowly at first, try hiding it behind bushes, on a chair, different places each time. If he goes back to the tree, show him where it is and make it into a game. Maybe you can work it into your pre-frisbee routine.

Just a thought -- maybe it would re-direct the obsession.

Ailsa

[mbc1963]

Sure sounds like he thinks the disc is still up in the tree. Any chance you can put another one up there when he's not around, and then make a big deal about taking THAT one out of the tree when he can see you do it? (I also wonder if there's a disc scent left up there?)

 

Good luck. Sounds frustrating!

 

Mary

[Lenajo]

So put a visible disc in that tree, then teach him that "treed" discs are never for playing. Only the discs in your hand are for playing.

 

In fact I'd start teaching him that all over the place. That way you don't have this problem again...with disc in the the car, the discs in the bag, etc.

[Alaska]

Sure sounds like he thinks the disc is still up in the tree. Any chance you can put another one up there when he's not around, and then make a big deal about taking THAT one out of the tree when he can see you do it?

That would be my suggestion. Sometimes I'm using a tossed treat as a reward in agility training and the dog loses the treat on the ground and gets obsessed with finding it. Increasingly frantic searching ensues. So I point out the treat, dog eats it, and we resume training. But sometimes, even after I point out the treat and it gets eaten, the dog is still stuck in the frantic "I know a treat fell on the ground around here somewhere" thought pattern and can't move on. I just walk over, drop another easy-to-find treat in the right area, make sure the dog finds it right away (eliminating the "frantic obsessive searching" stage), and THEN we can move on.

 

Lenajo's suggestion is worth doing too, but I think it addresses a different problem. If you dog doesn't know that the only discs available for play are the ones in your hand, then you do need to train that. But I'm betting in your case it's just a temporary crossed wire in the brain that needs to be reset.

[bc4ever]

I first thought TREE was the name of your dog!

 

LOL! Me too!!!

[Root Beer]

If this were my dog, I would incorporate the tree into the game so that the dog would learn to make a new association with it and the tree would become a non-issue. The tree is always going to be there. Even if you train your dog to ignore it, it will still be there. If another disk gets stuck up there later, you might have to deal with this all over again.

 

Do you know exactly which disk got stuck? (If you don't know which disk got stuck, you can try another one)

 

I would try taking the disk out (without the dog), and somehow rig it up so it is "on" the tree, but low enough for him to reach.

 

Then I would take him out on leash and have him sit where he can see it. I would cue a stay, but make sure he can see the disk.

 

Then I would release him to the disk so he can "get it" himself on your cue. (This is not a self reward since the you are sending your dog to interact with the tree)

 

If he brings it to you and plays, you can make this work nicely. You can even throw it a few times and then put him in a sit stay, put it on the tree, and send him to get it. So, sometimes you throw it, sometimes you put it on the tree. The tree becomes part of the game that you include from time to time.

 

I would actually do this for a couple of days and after that, I would place the disk on the ground near the tree instead of putting it on the tree and do the same thing.

 

If the dog could play a bit after retrieving the disk from the base of the tree, I would use sending the dog to the tree to get the disk as a reward for playing away from the tree.

 

Now, if another disk ever gets stuck, you knock it down, cue him to get it where it fell, and life goes on. Might be worth a shot.

[Lenajo]

I would not incorportate the tree as part of the "game" at all - beyond making it a place inactive frisbees go to be ignored.

 

I've had a tree addict Border Collie and it sounds funny, but it's not. It started out with a real squirrel, then an out of reach "maybe" squirrel, and he was climbing up the tree and flipping off. One good session of someone going "cool, he climbs and flips" encouragement and the habit was born. And what a habit... no squirrels required. If given any chance he would run out to the big trees and start running, yes running..up the side to about 10 feet up, and then back flipping off. The more he did it, the faster he got, the harder he flipped, and the worse the landings got. His feet would bleed, he would land on his head and bloody his head and face. He broke out teeth, he would limp and cry...all the while screaming to be allowed back to the tree as fast as he could.

 

We never resolved it. I finally sold him to a treeless feedlot operation where he could work cattle all he wanted without a tree in sight. Away from big leafy trees he was a perfectly normal dog.

 

The hardest lessons are the ones we learn with experience. OCD behavior should never be encouraged, even for a moment, and even as part of the "fix" of the problem (pun not intended but appropriate)

[Root Beer]

I would not incorportate the tree as part of the "game" at all - beyond making it a place inactive frisbees go to be ignored.

 

You and I often differ on training approaches when it comes to behavior. In fact, I had a feeling you would have a problem with my suggestion, but I felt the OP had a right to hear it since it's a good choice for some people and dogs.

 

I've had a tree addict Border Collie and it sounds funny, but it's not.

 

Who said it sounded funny? I certainly didn't. Maybe you didn't mean that I thought it was funny, and if you didn't I beg pardon.

 

It started out with a real squirrel, then an out of reach "maybe" squirrel, and he was climbing up the tree and flipping off. One good session of someone going "cool, he climbs and flips" encouragement and the habit was born. And what a habit... no squirrels required. If given any chance he would run out to the big trees and start running, yes running..up the side to about 10 feet up, and then back flipping off. The more he did it, the faster he got, the harder he flipped, and the worse the landings got. His feet would bleed, he would land on his head and bloody his head and face. He broke out teeth, he would limp and cry...all the while screaming to be allowed back to the tree as fast as he could.

 

That sounds like a terrible experience and I can understand why you wouldn't want to consider involving a tree in the training process with another dog.

 

I would like to point out, though, that what I have suggested is significantly different from what happened in your situation.

 

The hardest lessons are the ones we learn with experience. OCD behavior should never be encouraged, even for a moment, and even as part of the "fix" of the problem (pun not intended but appropriate)

 

I agree - the hardest lessons are the ones we learn with experience. Had I learned to actually incorporate the items that tend to overstimulate my dog who is subject to fixating on things early in life instead of trying to teach him to ignore those things as if they didn't exist, he most likely would have learned to deal with them and they would not have remained issues throughout his life. He's making nice progress at the age of 7, but oh if I had known how to do it when he was 2!

 

Sounds like you and I both learned important lessons, but different ones. As you say, the hardest lessons are the ones we learn with experience.

 

Whether or not the OP's dog is OCD is an important consideration. I've known an OCD dog who would have been well beyond using the technique that I described above. Her obsession was her reflection in the floor and had she been my dog, I would have sought medical help for OCD.

 

Based on what the OP described, my first assumption would not be OCD. I would try the game that I suggested as a first step. If I found that the dog was obsessing on the tree at that point, I would then approach the problem as possible OCD. If I had success pretty quickly, then I would continue to handle it with training games such as the one I described.

 

Before I say what I am about to say here, please understand that I realize that OCD is a very serious mental issue. Often medication and serious behavior modification and management are needed for true OCD.

 

That said, Border Collies often "obsess" on things for one reason or another and the dog does not have OCD. I've seen it plenty of times. Some Border Collies do have OCD, but others have problems with fixation that can be solved through training. It depends on the dog and what is actually going on.

 

I am not talking about making the dog crazy obsessed with the tree, but with learning to understand that the tree is part of reality, and that he or she can interact with it on cue and it's not a big deal. Of course, if the dog can't do that, my advise to the OP would be to seek medical help for the dog.

 

ETA: Lest anyone think it, I am in no way saying whether or not the OP's dog has OCD or that she should or should not seek treatment for OCD.

[Lenajo]

My point, very simply, is there is a fine line between obsession (as described in the op dog's behavior) and true OCD. I think *all* Border Collies have the potential for OCD in the right (wrong) hands and/or environment. It is the price of the level of intelligence/lack of ability to rationalize combined they possess.

 

In treating any potential or current OCD, the use of the target behavior is to be avoided ime. To use the "tree" to descrease the fixation on the tree would be like using a full cigarette pack to distract a smoker in the throes of full nicotine withdrawal.

 

Basically it *might* be helpful, but likely it won't, and at worst it will make it all much more difficult if not revert the smoker immediately to light up.

 

As for us disagreeing...at this point I've decided I could say the sky is Blue and you would come up with a 4 page diatribe as to why it is not. Pointless. In so many ways. I disagree with methods and ideas, not you. I believe in correction, you don't. Live with it.

 

But then again, I didn't tell the guy to correct his dog, I told him to teach it to ignore frisbees not in his hand. How he does that is irrelevant to me -just needs to get it done. I'm a results trainer first and foremost.

[Root Beer]

Basically it *might* be helpful, but likely it won't, and at worst it will make it all much more difficult if not revert the smoker immediately to light up.

 

And here we disagree again. I would say it will "probably" be helpful, but it possibly won't be. At worst it will show that there is a deeper problem that needs to be handled differently. At best, it might fix the problem nicely.

 

As for us disagreeing...at this point I've decided I could say the sky is Blue and you would come up with a 4 page diatribe as to why it is not. Pointless. In so many ways. I disagree with methods and ideas, not you. I believe in correction, you don't. Live with it.

 

Yes, that goes both ways. I could say the sky is Blue and you would come up with a similar diatribe as to why it's not.

 

I actually don't see it as pointless. The world is full of people who disagree and I feel there is value in learning to have objective discussions with them on points on which we disagree.

 

Were we discussing corrections in this thread? I wasn't.

 

But then again, I didn't tell the guy to correct his dog, I told him to teach it to ignore frisbees not in his hand. How he does that is irrelevant to me -just needs to get it done. I'm a results trainer first and foremost.

 

You're the one who brought corrections into this. I didn't. We obviously disagree on more than just the use of correction in training.

 

I gave the OP a suggestion that has worked for me. I hope that whatever he tries works for him. I never said that what you suggested wouldn't work - I simply described what I would do and why.

 

I am also a results trainer. Do you really think that the techniques that I recommend to people are ones that I've tried and found failed? Sometimes I do suggest something I haven't tried in some form or other and I'm clear on that. In this case, I have used what I suggested (different scenario, but same principal) and found that it gave me very surprising great results.

[Boon]

Thanks for all the input! I understand people have differing views on how to train or correct certain behaviors, and I took both sides into consideration. I do believe that as with my kid’s my dog needs to be handled on an individual basis. I.e. My older son responds to positive reinforcement while my younger son needs *cough* “iron fist in a velvet glove”.

 

Anyway here is what I have tried: (with a little success, but success none the less)

 

First I would stand there while he was pacing the tree, then call him off and make him lay till he seemed relaxed. Then I would do short disc toss’s near the tree, he was distracted but not as bad as earlier. I do not think it will be possible to incorporate the tree in anyway; it really has power over him.

 

Next I took him to a friend’s house; he has a huge field that backs up against a pecan orchard. I then made sure to sail a few discs into the pecan trees, and he could care less. He actually waited for me to free the disc from the tree and then was business as usual.

 

That afternoon we got home and the minute I opened the door of the truck he bolted to the pecan tree in the yard and started his pacing. I could call him off, but he was like an addict wanting so much for me to just let him do his thing. So I sat by the tree so he couldn’t pace and had him lay down with me, but the whole time I could tell he wanted me to leave. After about 10 minutes of sitting there by the tree with him I got up and walked to the center of the yard and sat down again. It was strange, I could tell he wanted to sit with me but that damn tree had him. I then laid down patting the ground (during this time I wasn’t calling him off, I wanted him to choose) well as I was laying there he broke of the tree and laid down with me! (Baby Steps I Guess?)

[Shetlander]

(Baby Steps I Guess?)

 

Sometimes that is how we progress. Sounds like a very frustrating situation and you are being very patient while understanding the behavior needs to stop. I've never dealt with that kind of obsession (knock wood) so am very interesting to hear how this training goes. Please keep us updated.

[Beth G]

When our frisbees get stuck up in the tree, I used the hose on high power (put a couple fingers over the stream)to knock them out.

[Boon]

Things are getting a little better, I have placed a wheel barrow between old shed and tree so he cant circle it but still hard to pull him off. I spoke with my vet and he had me make him a quick video of the behavior.

 

He seemed to think I may be overreacting, but the video really doesn’t do the behavior justice. He said Blue was probably bored because of small back yard and was just finding something to do. I disagree, we have 8 acres in the front that we have play/disc time (and there are pecan trees there too), the only reason he is in the backyard is to take care of “business”. Thing is in any other scenario one call and he comes running immediately but when in the back yard that’s not the case.

 

I put the video I gave to my vet on youtube:

 

 

The other thing I have noticed is that when in the backyard there seems to be a lot of anxiety, I think because he knows I don’t want him to do what it is he wants to do?

 

Anyway we a progressing, I have just been taking him out front lately to take care of “business” so less anxiety for both of us.

 

Work in Progress

[Beth G]

Yeah they can really obsess over the one that got away. Part of their breeding for the job I guess...

[2 Devils]

It almost looks like he is looking maybe for something to eat. Are there pecans on the ground? Maybe he is actually feeding himself or some other critter is leaving "gifts" around the tree that is of interest.

[Boon]

It almost looks like he is looking maybe for something to eat. Are there pecans on the ground? Maybe he is actually feeding himself or some other critter is leaving "gifts" around the tree that is of interest.

 

Yeah that first part there was something he was chewing on, but thing is in any other venue there could have been a prime rib on the ground and a simple that'll do would have him come running.

[Chesney's Girl]

The way he slinks around the tree in the second part of the video is the way Chesney looks when he is trying to be sneaky looking for cats. Chesney is terribly obsessed with cats that it drives me crazy! It might be just one of those things that won't get worse than it is not but you will constantly have to call him off the tree and not let him out there without supervision. It might go away in time, or it might not, but the call offs do get easier with more practice and working on him keeping an ear for you at all times. Best of luck!

[Bo Peep]

They say an elephant never forgets- I think they should change it to a "border collie never forgets". Usher spotted a squirrel at his favorite hang out- the doggy bar. He keeps going to the same tree looking for the squirrel. It was there once, it's GOT to be there again.

 

We lost a tennis ball in a big tree and I'm too short to reach it, so we just walked home and got another- it didn't seem to bother him. ANY ball will do. Yet, I feel your pain about the obsession. I think you are doing the right thing about calling him back. Is there another place that you could play disc with him and maybe (lol) he might forget? I'm sure he'll go right back to the tree. Variations do help a bit. I'm sorry I couldn't be of more help. Most my dogs would chase anything.

[Boon]

Well for those of you who are checking on our progress, we have had somewhat of breakthrough! After a nice day of disc play at the park (catching 65+ yarders!!) we get home and the minute I open the door of the truck he bolts to the tree. I let him pace it for about 30 seconds then ran to the tree and yelled off, had him lie down then I started running around the tree. He was lying there watching me run around the tree, I was smacking the tree yelling mine, this is my tree! After about a minute Blue was looking at me like I lost my mind, I stopped walked up to him and said “your turn” and walked away. I looked back thinking I would see him pacing the tree but he was at my heel After that I went inside leaving him out, looking out the window he did go to the tree but just sniffed it then jogged around the yard. Knock on wood I hope this is really a breakthrough!!

[Shetlander]

Knock on wood I hope this is really a breakthrough!!

 

It just might be, though he may need one or two reminders that the tree is yours. I had a similar experience with Quinn. He wasn't obsessing about fence fighting with the poodles behind our house, but the behavior had gone on way too long (my fault of course) and there was a hole under the fence that the little dogs were sticking their snouts through. I saw potential for all kinds of tragedy and that was what finally got me to get serious. One time of me being "ugly" (in voice only) about the fence fighting and Quinn is a reformed dog. After I made my point, I could almost hear him thinking "Jeez! Why didn't you tell me it was such a big deal?" Not that he hasn't gotten in a few brief bouts since then but he pulls out immediately and those slips are very few and far in between.

 

Just one time of making something really clear to our dogs will go a long, long way. Please keep us updated on Blue.

[Cassie_the_BC]

Our five month old Border Collie is also very obsessed with a tree in the yard. She's worn a circle around the base of the tree and the base of the tree is discolored from her constant jumping. She even tries to eat the bark. She doesn't like the electric swiffer we use to vacuum the kitchen floor so I started hanging it on a nail at the base of the tree during the day. Now she's not so crazy about that tree anymore and leaves it alone. That mean ol' swiffer now "owns" the tree.