Rock needs new food - advise?

[Kyna]

Yay!

 

Success!! I am afraid to say it, so knock on wood. The transition to California Natural is complete, lamb & rice. I still give him the Missing Link - for the same reason I take supplements - and yogurt. He has been good since I started the transition so I think we have found his food.

[Sue R]

Digestive issues are never pleasant, and you always have the worry that the dog is not getting the nutrition it needs. I'm glad you found what worked and also very pleased that you have really worked on this until you solved the problem.

 

Best wishes!

[Kyna]

Help!

 

The California Naturals worked for a while. Then, not so much. Rock started pooping blood (diahorea). It was frightening. He had a course of antibiotics and we put him on Hills W/D which is their gastro food. Not only did he loose a kilo (i.e. from a slim 19.3 kg to 18.3 kg) he started getting scabs on his skin - he was also on four cups a day and still not gaining weight. With the skin condition we changed him to Metacals hypoallergetic formula plus bran - originally we thought it was colitis but now the vet thinks it is also allergies. We would like to get him on better quality food but we would like his diaorehea to stop! He seems to have done okay for a few weeks and now his loose stools are back and he hasn't gained an ounce of weight.

 

I am going to talk to the vet again this week, we are now regulars in her office, but I really don't know what else to do. We have long stopped giving him any nibbles of chicken or human treats and the only dog treats he gets are hypo-allergetic - he used to love a chewy after dinner but we have stopped that, the missing link, the yogurt, everything. He appears happy and energetic but we are worried about his nutrition and his overall health.

 

I really am not sure where to proceed from here - any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

Sincerely,

Kyna

[urge to herd]

Get thee to a specialist. An internal medicine vet. General practice vets don't have the depth of expertise. If there's not an internal medicine person near by, (and I'd be willing to travel at least a couple hours) then see if your vet can set up a phone consult with some one at a veterinary teaching hospital.

 

Good luck - I know it's hard when you can't figure out what the problem is.

 

Ruth

[Jedismom]

Did your vet test for Giardia?

[SoloRiver]

Is it possible he has inflammatory bowel or ulcerative colitis? Crohn's? I second the rec for a specialist.

[Kyna]

Thanks for your replies,

 

I have an apt tomorrow with the vet and we'll talk about the option of going to a specialist - it may be about time.....

 

We do test for Giardia every time he has an episode.

 

The thing that gets us is he does well for 3 to 6 months and boom, upset tummy.

 

As an aside I do think he has allergies as his skin seems much better on the hypo-allergetic food but now he has loose stools. But he obviously has tummy problems too.

[Jimmyd65]

Layla has been through what you're describing. Things started to change when she was spayed at 7 months. Overnight her stools were loose for 2-3 days at a time. We spent mucho $$$$'s at the vet only to be told there is nothing that can be done... She has Colitis!! I don't totally disagree with him and I suggested changing food and keep changing until we found the solution. Our solution is Orijen 6 fish with a broken up slice of Pet Botanics (lamb & rice roll). We add warm water to make the meal more enticing. We've had great success for 3 months now. Every dog is different and hopefully you'll find the right solution. Don't give up...

[Kyna]

Jim - thanks for you suggestions - don't worry - giving up isn't an option

 

I just had a really interesting appointment with our vet. In preparation for our appointment she chronicled Rock's history for the last year (we have had him for 2.5 years, we got him at 1 year old and we moved to this town and starting seeing her 1 year ago).

 

Turns out Rock gets an upset stomach every time I go out of town. His routine is disrupted and he is left on his own longer (in the house). So he likely has colitis caused from what? Anxiety? Allergies? Perhaps both. If it is allergies, to what? This last bout was likely anxiety and wasn't as bad as other episodes.

 

We have previously run a full blood panel, checked for Gardia. It could possibly be whipworm - that is the one other thing we haven't ruled out.

 

So. We are going to do a course of whip worm treatment which will take about two months. In the meantime he will stay on the Metacal-Hypo-allergetic, bran buds and metamucil. Then our options are skin allergy tests (4 hrs north) or colonoscopy (4 hrs south). If it comes to that we will likely go south because the colonoscopy will likely reveal allergies as well as colitis.

 

Until then the vet doesn't want to try any new food because she doesn't want to create any more sensitivities or provoke any allergies until we know what is going on. She is fine with him going back on Origijien or California Naturals because he has already had both but I decided on staying on the Metacal (or is it metacam). She said that if it is also allergies he should be on a hydrolysed diet - not sure what that means but will run it by my friend Google.

 

She also looked at his weight, he did loose about a kilo over the last year, perhaps we only noticed it when he went on the W/D but we moved from the city to a small town and I am at home so he does get in a lot more exercise in the day. The vet said he is a fit dog and not under weight.

 

He is an anxious little dog which was really evident at the vet today - I took him alone for the first time, without our 12 year old dog, and he freaked out a bit. I am 5 months pregnant so he is in for a bit of rollercoaster. We have already started preparing the gipper for the baby. Our retired neighbor is down to one dog that is a bit of an invalid and has offered to help out with walking the dogs when the baby comes, the baby isn't due until January so we are going to start walking together in November/December. I am also doing more leash work with them - they are awesome off leash but could use a little work on leash - I will likely even start practicing with a stroller this winter. And we are slowly changing a few things, i.e. where the dog beds are and putting their food dishes away when they are not in use. I am not entirely into the hole nursery thing yet but I do want to get the room set up earlier rather than later so their is less disruption in the house for the dogs. Once the room is set up we will let the dogs have a look around but that room is now and will remain off limits for both dogs. As aside we were in town a few weeks ago and went to Ikea for baby stuff and came out with only dog stuff.... Rock's sensitivities just reinforces how important it is to work on a smooth transition for the dogs.

 

I know, I am a geek, but I really find this very interesting.

 

Thanks!

Kyna

[urge to herd]

Very cool stuff you're doing, preparing everyone for the baby - good job.

 

As far as the anxiety goes, our Buzz had clostridium perfingens overgrowth frequently when he got stressed. It doesn't sound like Rock has c. perfingens - it makes dogs really sick, fever, lethargy, bloody diarhee, very painful gut, etc etc. The reason I bring it up is that every time his stressors went up, he got sick. We finally put him on a maintenance dose of flagyl, and added probiotics to his diet. It didn't totally eliminate his outbreaks, but it sure reduced them.

 

And good for the vet, too, for looking at the whole dog and pointing out the connection to you being out of town. Sounds like you're in good hands.

 

Ruth

[Kyna]

Thanks Ruth for your positive comments.

 

Is it okay to have a maitenance dose of an antibiotic? (Flagyl is an antibiotic right?) What type of pro-biotics do you use? Rock was getting yogurt but I stopped everything except vet food.

 

It is really hard to know how to proceed. My vet wanted to put Rock back on the W/D (gastro food) but he got a skin rash from that - she thought that an omega-3 supplement could sort it out - but if he has allergies that wouldn't help. So we came to a compromise that we both thought was reasonable. Of course I'll be back if he gets sicker. She spent over an hour with me today talking about options - she is a real investigator which I appreciate and she knows I'll go home and do my research.

 

As for the baby - I have the time now and it is good motivation to work on new things with the dogs. I have had fabulous advise from Mom's on baby stuff and terrible advice on dogs. The best ones so far are to start ignoring the dogs now so they are used to it and that my dogs will herd my kids and isn't that great and that a herding dog staring at children and watching their every move is normal. When I heard the latter I said my dogs will not herd my child, nor will I let them focus on the child as that is an expression of prey drive - that actually really bothered me as I have heard several stories on dogs being overly interested in kids that result in bites (and on one occasion the dog being put down). Rock is very interested in small fast moving children, in my opinion too interested so I am doing a lot of eye contact work with him - i.e. he has to check in with me before he makes any decisions (eating, leaving or entering the house, being let of leash etc.). I have solicited input from 4 dog trainers on preparing the dogs for babies and my husband and I talk about the different paradigms and are picking and choosing how we proceed. Isla has a fabulous trainer who worked with me when she was a puppy (11 years ago) - best $100 I ever spent on a private lesson, with that lesson came a lifetime of phone support - she will be no. 5 and I will be calling her sometime in the next week or so.

 

I am really open to advice on the baby front, I can even take it in stride when I think it is silly, but when I hear bad dog advice I get annoyed. But I suppose I know more right now about dogs than babies.

 

Our older dog, Isla, is terrific with children and my only worry for her is her attachment to me. She loves my husband but she seems to need me to walk her at least once a day or she never really settles down.

 

Anyway, success for Rock's tummy with be 6 months without loose stools, considering we have 2 months of whip worm treatment we are on the 1 year plan

 

Thanks!

Kyna

[jenkshipley]

Otherwise he is healthy - he has had his regular check-ups as well as blood and stool samples.

 

Has he been tested for giardia? This sounds like either giardia or maybe inflammatory bowel disease which some lines of Border Collies definitely have and not a food issue.

 

I don't think the food is causing the problem since you have tried different foods and he continues to have diarrhea.

 

I would switch to a single source protein food for at least awhile and use a protein that he has not had before - Fromm has some good choices and so does Natural Balance. Duck and potato might be a good thing to try. You might eventually be able to switch back to a different food, but this might help while you are trying to get him regular.

 

I would add a probiotic supplement (Total Biotic or Primal Defense) and an enzyme supplement (Bert's Zyme is good and inexpensive) in each meal. I would add L-Glutamine to each meal (you can order online) and put a scoop, not more then a scoop, of organic canned pumpkin in his food. When he has diarrhea I would add slippery elm to his meals.

 

Make sure your vet has tested for giardia and you may need to test more then one stool sample a week or two apart to get an accurate result.

 

Feeding straight kibble is like you living on cereal for the rest of your life never having anything fresh to eat. Even if all the necessary nutrients are there, it is a very artificial and unnatural way to eat.

 

If the supplements and the pumpkin help and his bouts of diarrhea stop, and you are uncomfortable with raw food for your dog, it would be a very good idea to add some cooked ground meat, keifer or organic yogurt, pulped or cooked veggies (table scraps) and a raw or cooked egg to his kibble at least a few times a week.

 

Best,

Jen

Flute, Enna, Fever and Lava

[jenkshipley]

Make sure your vet has tested for giardia and you may need to test more then one stool sample a week or two apart to get an accurate result.

 

 

The problem with testing a dog for giardia after they have diarrhea, from what I have learned in dealing with my own dog's problem with the parasite, is that the active giardia is gone from the body after the diarrhea occurs and only dormant cysts which can be missed on a giardia test remain until they become active again.

 

If this were my dog, I would be suspicious, expecially with the bloody diarrhea that this was a parasite that was being missed on testing. I'd do a five day course of Panacur or Safeguard and repeat another five day course after three weeks. Some parasites are hard to detect on tests and the medication will not harm your dog. It also just may clear up whatever is going on.

 

My own dog who had tested positive for giardia, had a reoccurence of the very serious symptoms she had been having when she tested positive a few months later. We retested and she tested negative, however we decided to treat her again, this time went for a five day course of the medication I mentioned and repeated for five days three weeks later. She has not had any of the previous symptoms or problems since.

 

 

Best,

Jen

Flute, Enna, Fever and Lava

[Kyna]

Hi Jen,

 

Thanks for your comments - it seems I am doing most of what you have recommended:

 

The whip worm treatment (it will take two months because the vet wants to give him two - 3 day treatments and they need to be 1 months apart) is Panacur, so hopefully that will address any other potential parasites.

 

But my hubby is away and knowing Rocks anxiety I am waiting until he is back and settled to start the treatment - this is on the vets advice. Although Rock seems to miss my hubby his stools seem okay - he just acts a little mopey in the evenings (I got home and hubby left but Rock seems to be okay) - I guess I set his routine so even though he gets walked and loved while I am away it is a different routine that perhaps upsets him (?). Right now he is on the metamucil, bran buds and Medi-Cal hypo - which is actually Duck and Potato I am very nervous to change him to a different food or add anything right now. I was going to give him the two months & Panacur before I started anything new.

 

One issue is finding a high fibre hypo food, hence the metamucil and bran buds.

 

He was getting pumpkin pretty regularly but that was one of the things he was on when he had really bloody stools so I am nervous to reintroduce that right now too - I doubt I will give it to him again. Our older dog gets kibble, pumpkin, oils, glucosamine, yogurt, sometimes kelp.

 

I hope the Pancur is the answer! Could that have been the problem for +2.5 years? He had loose stools at 1 year old when we got him and is 3.5 years old. Does Giardia really work that way - i.e. dormant and re-occur? That could explain why the older dog and local dogs don't seem to get Giardia - I assumed if it was Giardia other dogs would have it too.

 

Thanks!

Kyna

[jenkshipley]

I hope the Pancur is the answer! Could that have been the problem for +2.5 years? He had loose stools at 1 year old when we got him and is 3.5 years old. Does Giardia really work that way - i.e. dormant and re-occur? That could explain why the older dog and local dogs don't seem to get Giardia - I assumed if it was Giardia other dogs would have it too.

 

It could be possible, but hard to say. Giardia is definitely cyclical. The good news is that the Panacur will take care of giardia as long as you make sure to repeat after three weeks if that is what it is and it won't harm your dog in the process.

 

My dog, Fever, was sent to me by the breeder with giardia. She had diarrhea from the day I got her at 10 weeks. My vet tested her for giardia, she was positive and was treated with Flagyl. However, we now believe (my vet's office and myself) that the giardia was never actually removed completely from her system. Although she did test negative in between she had a horrible flare up this past November, her protein levels dropped very low, she was losing fluid from her intestines into her abdomen and ended have very bad diarrhea. It turned out that she had a very heavy load of giardia. She may or may not have inflammatory bowel disease, giardia and IBD can look very similar on an ultrasound and I have not spent the $$$ to have another ultrasound done now she seems to be stable. She has not have a flare up of severe diarrhea (knock on wood) or low protein since March when we finally treated for five days and repeated in for five days three weeks later with Panacur. Since none of my other dogs have ever shown symptoms or been positive for giardia and they are all tested now every time they have a check up, we believe Fever never got rid of her original infestation. Giardia can be tricky. There is something else, similar that I can't remember the name of offhand that is also an intestinal parasite that also sometimes is hard to get an accurate test for. Maybe someone else knows the name of what I am talking about.

 

I would not give my dog Flagyl long term or even at all if not needed. It can cause damage and put pressure on the liver and it has been shown to be only about 40% effective against giardia.

 

I have kept Fever on an enzyme supplement and a probiotic supplement on a permanent basis and she gets L-glutamine daily. I am in the process of switching her back to a fully raw diet, she also, unfortunately has epilepsy and is on an anti-seizure medication. My homeopathic vet is hoping a raw diet may help reduce the incidence of seizures and allow us to keep her on a low level of medication since she has a weak immune and digestive system and the medication can cause digestive upset. So far she is handing the switch well despite her very sensitive intestinal system. For a long time, I used a grain free, high quality protein kibble (Orijen) and added some cooked or raw pulped veggies, ground meat, eggs, yogurt, cottage cheese, etc. to her diet.

Keep us posted!

 

Jen

Flute

Enna

Rising Sun's Hot to the Touch - Fever

Soon to be Ignited's Molten Rush - Lava

[Thisizbrian]

I have been using flint river ranch kibble since my baby was 3 months old.