theshine Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 The story is, my friend and his wife, are having issues with their 3 y/o BC and their 9 month old baby, which ended up with the BC biting the baby a couple days ago. From what he told me it was more like a nip, no broken skin but a bruise, and it's on her face. Dog was laying at moms feet, baby crawled up to mom, and dog snapped and made contact. He has told me the BC has been very fearful of the baby since day 1, but usually runs and hides from the baby. Background on the dog is, they've had him from a puppy, bought from a petstore, and by their own admission they haven't socialized him, doesn't sound like at all really...they live in an apartment and the dog does get walked, but I think that's about it. My friend has also told me that the dog is reactive toward visitors, barking, growling, raised hackles, etc, as well, but hasn't bitten any other time. So anyway, he told me last night they are probably going to get rid of the dog...his wife says she's called rescues and been told they don't take owner surrenders or biters, and even the no kill shelter told her that a dog that has bitten a child will be put down. My suggestion would be a behaviorist, but I don't think they can afford it....anything else I should tell this guy? Recommended reading? Any chance this can be improved with something simple like training/exercise, nilif, and a no kids home? They are hoping to rehome...thoughts? I actually considered taking this dog on a trial basis for about a nanosecond, but I have kids, though not babies, but I wouldn't want to get in over my head. They told me he likes other dogs and I offered a playdate with my bc to hopefully get the dog out of the house a bit, would something like that help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaisingRiver Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Sounds to me the dog was guarding the mom. I would think the dog would be ok with non-child family where it won't ever have to compete again. I also think the dog could be rehab'd w/ current family - but having kids of my own, I can see how they would want the dog out. I can also understand rescues not wanting to take the dog on. River bit at my friend's dog, Moto, when I was dog sitting him and River was standing by me outside and Moto came over to say hi and get some petting. Same situation, just dog instead of child. It was black and white to me what was going on in that case. River was scolded because it was unnecessary behavior and she's never done it or anything like it since. She still doesn't like dogs climbing all over her and lets them know - but never guards me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Yikes! Supervision!!!! They know the dog is scared and reactive and they are allowing baby to crawl around in the vicinity? Poor dog needs some help and it sounds like they won't have time to do it.Did they help prep this dog for the new arrival in any way? Sorry< I know they're friends and all but geez... They might want to FIND the funds to hire a Behaviour Consultant. It's not going to get better without some help. All the 'scared'dog books apply: Help For Your Fearful Dog- Nicole Wilde The Cautious Canine- Patricia McConnell Website: http://www.aggressivebehaviorsindogs.com http://www.fearfuldogs.com I think he would be ok in the right home...adult, scared- dog savvy. There is no quick fix to this... a lot of time and effort with counterconditionong/desensitization and there is no guarantee this dog will truly be totally happy around kids. From the description of how little was done as this pup grew up, I kinda wonder if they'll really put forth the effort now. Just my take... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 I've got a friend with a well-loved dachshund, who has bitten her son twice. First time, the baby was (accidentally) left unsupervised with the dog. Baby was about 18 months. Baby stuck finger in dog's eye or pulled whiskers... no one is sure, because they had their eye off both the dog and the baby at the time. The dog nipped at the baby's face. Second time, 3-year-old boy jumped up on bed on top of the dog, without warning, and awoke the dog from a deep sleep. Dog bit the boy in the face, this time breaking the skin. After the first incident, my friend told her doctor how awful she felt - like a bad mother, etc.. THe doctor told her he sees things like this ALL the time, with babies left unsupervised with dogs. After the second incident, which required a trip to the ER, my friend's home had to be visited by animal welfare and the police and all... so they could evaluate the dog. Baby weiner sat there looking pathetic as the visitors came through the house. Apparently, no one saw the situation as dangerous, because the dog was non-reactive and not aggressive. Anyway - I'm not saying if this is all good or bad. My friend recognizes that in both cases, the dog was acting in defense of itself. She loves the dog and I don't think she'd consider getting rid of it, since both bites were not inappropriate reactions to being treated the way the dog was treated by the child. I don't know what would happen if the husband and wife didnt' love the dog so much. It is tricky, though! I certainly would be sure that the dog was protected from the baby, so he didn't develop a more denfensive posture than he has now. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Yikes!Supervision!!!! They know the dog is scared and reactive and they are allowing baby to crawl around in the vicinity? Well let's be realistic. When you live in an apartment with a crawling baby and a dog who is clearly terrified of the baby, how exactly do you keep them safely apart at all times? It's probably not as easy it might seem to get a handle on a situation like this, so while it might seem like they are just setting everyone up for failure, they probably don't have many other options. I was at the dog park the other day and a woman was trying to get her dog to hang out with me and my dogs so she could take her kid to the jungle gym across the street. "We live in an apartment" she told me, "and there's nowhere really to let her crawl/run around." And her dog LIKED her kid - apartments are just not set up to provide lots of individual space for its inhabitants. The best thing to do would be to remove the dog from the situation and place it in a child-free home. There is no reason that a dog who is not good with kids can't go on to live a long and happy life somewhere else - certainly I have placed an enormous number of dogs from similar situations without a problem. The bigger problem is the dog's general reactivity to strangers / lack of socialization. This sort of dog is harder to place than one that does not like kids. Possibly the best way to assist them is find a rescue who DOES take owner surrenders and can put the dog in an environment that is much less stressful than its home environment. I know that if I put Tweed in a home with a crawling baby, the poor dear's head would explode with terror. It's taken him 8 years to accept that idea that children can approach and pet him and it's kinda cool, but I have no doubt he'd bite a baby that crawled up to him. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 The books and sites bc4pack mentioned will help them get on the right track, but I feel a behaviour consultant would also be a good place to start. I don't want to dump on your friends and I hate to say that the dog should be re-homed, but they did have 9 months to prepare for any issues like this. I am well aware that my dog DOES NOT like children. Don't blame her really. But, I never put her in a situation where either of them would be at risk, she doesn't mind being kept in a different room while kids are around at all. If they didn't have the time to socialize the dog and/or child proof him before hand, I have a hard time believing they will find the time to help him now. While I hope and pray that they would find the time, some people just figure it's easier to get rid of a dog they don't have time for anymore. If they can't dedicate the time to help him, hopefully they could at the very least dedicate some time to find a good adult home who knows how to handle reactive dogs. Jeeze, if he wasn't so far away (and I need another reactive dog like I need a hole in my head), I'd take him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 but they did have 9 months to prepare for any issues like this. I am well aware that my dog DOES NOT like children. Don't blame her really. But, I never put her in a situation where either of them would be at risk, she doesn't mind being kept in a different room while kids are around at all. I wonder how you are supposed to prepare for issues like this. I mean, I know there are resources to assist, but the dog can't read them and I don't know that any amount of prep is really going to prepare a dog for an infant or toddler crawling up to or on them. And I'm not convinced that dogs who don't like and/or are terrified of kids should be forced to live in a situation with them. Especially a situation as confining as an apartment. If they didn't have the time to socialize the dog and/or child proof him before hand, I have a hard time believing they will find the time to help him now. While I hope and pray that they would find the time, some people just figure it's easier to get rid of a dog they don't have time for anymore. I agree they probably don't have the time or resources to do it now. But I don't necessarily paint all people who rehome their dogs with the same brush and I think that often, people who have a dog that is terrified of children, and is a danger to those children, are better off placing the dog in a home without kids. Not only is the child at risk, but the dog is too - a bad enough bite and the dog usually gets the needle. But the dog is probably incredibly uncomfortable in this environment, which is not at all fair to the dog. Many times in threads on these boards where someone has a dog that is bullying and injuring another dog we tell people to rehome one of them, because it's not fair to the persecuted dog to be in an environment where he is constantly afraid. Isn't this the same? The PC idea that we should keep dogs for life is usually the right idea, but sometimes that idea is unfair to the dog in question. This dog could be immeasurably happier somewhere else. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theshine Posted October 12, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Thanks for the replies, I'll suggest those books to them....they do know now that they made some mistakes with this dog early on, I'm just not sure they're going to be able to do what it takes to turn the situation around...I know he wants to rehome (Buddy is the dogs name), but it's her dog primarily so she may be willing to read and work on the situation...personally I think the dog needs to be in a no kids, BC savy home. Anyone want a project dog? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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