Filling Out - Boy Dogs Mostly

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Ted suddenly grew a brain about three weeks ago. This week I've noticed that he's really getting some physical substance to him, too. He's two and looked like a puppy forever. Even his little face was babyish. Now he's getting a heavier looking head, longer skull (he's "teething" again - tearing stuff up left and right - what the heck?), and he's gained some height and most of all breadth.

 

I just realized I haven't had a baby boy dog in ten years! And my last one matured while away at training - I sent him scrawny and puppyish and he came back with this giant muscley build like a tank!

 

When did your dogs mature? Just trying to chat because I'm stuck here in bed for a few days.

[Genie]

I hope you feel better soon.

 

I've always neutered my males around 6-9 months, so they haven't done any more filling out after the initial puppy growth spurt and I think that's due to when they were neutered. I planned to have Zeb done at a 12-18 mo, but he totally lost his brain between 6 & 7 months, so I had it done early.

I think for most pet dogs that are neutered, the filling out that people expect is just extra fat padding. If they're intact, I do think they bulk up with muscle as they mature.

 

ETA: As for growing a brain (LOL!), I think that they mature mentally around 2-3 years, depending on the dog.

[Dixie_Girl]

Jackson seemed to mature at about 12-13 months. At about 10 mos. I rushed him to the vet because I thought he had an exotic wasting away disease. The vet said, in any other breed, maybe, but for a BC, this is normal. They are growing and full of energy at the same time so they just don't have time to gain weight! LOL By 18 mos. he was how he is now. Very muscular and "brawny". Skips always been dinky. He is 2 1/2 and still has not bulked up. Still a scrawny little thing. Neither has been neutered. However, Skip is pushing things!

[Laurae]

Taz is four, intact, and still looks like a puppy...

[Liz P]

I had a male from a late maturing line who continued to fill out until he was nearly 4 years old. If left intact male BCs tend to continue to fill out until 2.5 to 3 years old. Neutered young they may never look masculine.

[Alaska]

Taz is four, intact, and still looks like a puppy...

Kepler is 3 1/2 and still looks, thinks, and acts like a puppy (minus the bad habits). He's super enthusiastic, super attentive, super sure he's the only dog that REALLY matters in our universe, and super skinny, with fine features that cause nearly everyone to refer to him as a girl. Neutered at ~8 months. I call him "Puppy-for-Life".

 

And I love him to death, BTW. He's a very pleasant and easy dog to live with, except...well. we won't go there now, will we?

[1sheepdoggal]

Hey Becca, hope your feeling better soon. Boys that I have had, have usually been between 2 and 2.5 when the boyish looks and baby brain start to fade to Im a big boy now. Im not sure if it is due to hormones/testosterone but Im sure it plays a roll. Right now, Hank is going on 6 months and he is gangly and what we like to call "The Rubber Dog" everything is loose and clumsy. We are hoping he lives through this stage, as his clumsiness is a danger to himself as he bounces, trips, slides, falls on his face and runs into things and launches himself off the porch and couch...awe hell, he is in perpetual launch mode at the moment, its the only move he knows right now.

Most days, his puppy antics are a hoot, but still I wish he were 2 already!

[MaryP]

Sorry you're not feeling well, Becca. I hope you are back on your feet soon.

 

Charlie just turned 3 two months ago. The dog he is at 3 is very different, mentally and physically, from the dog he was at 2. So, I guess I would have to say he matured somewhere close to 3 years old. I recently had to measure him to see how tall he was. I was surprised that he was taller than when I had last measured him, which I thought I had done when he was fully grown. I think I measured him when he was about two, or close to it. When I recently measured him again, he was at least another half an inch or more taller. He has also filled out noticeably. He no longer has that long, lean, baby-ish body and face/head. He's a good weight, still, but he's just "bulkier" overall. He looks like a grown-up now, I guess.

 

Skittles turns 2 tomorrow, at least that's about when we think his birthday is. The verdict is still out on him.

 

Milo is 9 and I don't really remember when he seemed to fill out. But, I moved to FL shortly after he turned 3 and he put on a little weight after moving here. I think that was partly a result of him filling out. The pictures that I took of him when we first moved look really different from the ones that I took a year later. Besides bulking up a bit, he got more furry. He is SO MUCH more furry now than he was as a young dog.

[Ooky]

Right now, Hank is going on 6 months and he is gangly and what we like to call "The Rubber Dog" everything is loose and clumsy. We are hoping he lives through this stage, as his clumsiness is a danger to himself as he bounces, trips, slides, falls on his face and runs into things and launches himself off the porch and couch...awe hell, he is in perpetual launch mode at the moment, its the only move he knows right now.

 

 

This is exactly how Odin is right now. I try to be so careful with him but lately he keeps taking the most spectacular falls just rounding a corner going down the stairs. He even gave himself a limp in his front leg that I can't get to go away, so he's going to the vet on Friday. But structure-wise, he also is super gangly and bendy at almost 7 months. He looks tall and his toes point out like a dork. I really like it but am looking forward to him filling out some and stop taking so many CHevy-Chase-as-Gerald-Ford-style prat falls. His dad was really big and broad-chested for a BC, and I kinda hope that Odin will be the same.

 

I remember my family's dog (husky) filled out to his adult shape BOOM - right at 2.5. It was weird because it happened while I was away at college for maybe 10 weeks and it was almost like, what'd you guys do with the other dog?

 

ETA feel better soon!

[Bo Peep]

I've only had 2 male BC's that I kept. One was a rescue and was in tact and 3 and all grown up, then there's Usher. He still is very much a puppy at 2 years and almost 2 months. He puppy plays with other dogs and people think he's about 8 months old. LOL. He's clumsy at fetch, falls over a lot. But I notice changes in his face that look more like a mature adult. Usher is at the correct weight, you can feel his ribs, but can't see them. I only wish I would watch MY diet as well as I do the dogs.

[Chesney's Girl]

Chesney will turn 4 in February and I think in the last few months to a year he has really started to mentally grow up. As far as filling out, I think it was right around or just after his 3rd birthday that I noticed him not looking so scrawny puppy like, I guess Chesney was just a late bloomer. He is very much the correct weight for him, well muscled and lean. I can easily feel ribs, hips/butt bones, and his spine. It's crazy how one minute they look like a puppy then you take another look at them and their all grown up!

[Sue R]

Celt, neutered at six months (and I'll never do that again with a male), never filled out and is often mistaken for a bitch. If I had a nickel for everytime Jack Knox or other clinicians called him "her" - well, you get the picture. He also seems quite appealing to some intact males but he's not that kind of dog and finds their attention quite disconcerting. I often wonder if Celt would have had more self-assurance and confidence if he'd been left intact until he was mature.

 

Bute, on the other hand, was not neutered until 18 months. He is still a scrawny, narrow, homely little guy. I suppose we could have waited longer but he was getting some male habits that we wished to avoid and (with his genetic flaws) wanted to avoid any chance of unintentional reproduction.

 

Sounds like the Teddy-boy is changing from a Peglet to a stud-puppy. That litter's turning out real nice.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I often wonder if Celt would have had more self-assurance and confidence if he'd been left intact until he was mature.

 

Nah. Ben's foster mom was forward thinking in that respect and allowed us - actually, she begged us - to leave Ben intact until he was almost a year old. He still had confidence issues very similar to Celt's on sheep (remember they are related on one side). Ben took until he was about five or six years old to look and act like a grown up dog, but at that point he was ALL male and never looked back. He was even able to mount willing females and tie - kinda weird.

[stockdogranch]

I've got a male who will be 10 in November. When he was a pup, I left him intact to see what kind of working dog he would become, leaving my options open. At 18 months, I realized there was nothing worth passing on, so had him cut. He still has never quite developed a brain , and has severe issues with confidence on his stock. He is a pet. He was also the skinniest, gangliest, string bean of a guy till he hit 18 months. Then he filled out and is quite the handsome guy. That's the last male dog I've had. Oh, and my 14 year old, who was cut at a year, has always tied with my girls when they are in season,

 

A

[bcnewe2]

I had Mick cut at 18 months. He's was filled out by 2, but only just found his big man brain this year and he's going on 5. I know his brother and he's still intact. He's gangley and tall, Mick is neither.

 

On a side note. Do you think it's ok for a neutered dog to be tying with the girls in season? Mick does that all the time with Dew. I worried at first but then decided it was like safe sex. Then got to worrying about Dew having a false pregnency.

I like to worry!

Kristen

[Bo Peep]

One thing about having them cut early- they don't remember sex (never had it never will) reminds me of my ex-husbands statement for steers- "changes their minds from ass to grass"

 

Usher has never even though about "tying". I had him neutered maybe a bit too young. Right after his first b-day- Happy Birthday, Dude! LOL. Thinking back, I would have waited a tad bit later. I don't know why, he's a little leggy and such, but what a wonderful boy. I really prefer females, but THIS guy has really won my heart!

 

Oh the worry about false pregnancy- never had one. So, can't give any advice there. Best of luck. It's been a long time for me with a baby boy, too. Hope you're on your feet now.

[Sue R]

Well, my Celt has never had interest in the ladies, whatsoever. Bute, on the other hand, would like to think he's God's gift to the girls but lacks both the equipment to make it count (thank goodness) and the experience to know what to do with it. Although, he wouldn't mind figuring it out if we'd let him.

 

Thanks, Becca, for the Ben/Celt-specific input. Celt is now almost six and sometimes has much better days listening and appearing a bit more confident. However, as in recent days, a couple of good days are usually followed by a couple of brainless (and hearing loss) days. He'll never have power. If the cattle are reasonably cooperative, he's okay. If they are contrary, and he doesn't get his dander up but instead gets his insecurities going, he needs lots of help from me.

 

Poor dog - all sorts of good instincts and no power/confidence to back them up. I was hoping that maybe there would be a quick fix, like letting a dog like him mature before neutering. Maybe it would work for some dogs.

[bcnewe2]

Mick had never mated before he was cut. the first time I found the 2 tied he was as freaked out as I was. Dew let out a scream, I went running to see what they had done to the poor bunny that I thought I heard. There they were, with that deer in the headlights look. Now he's and old pro and she's a reg. hussy. I don't encourage it but since I own no intact males I don't keep an eye on them in the house when she's in season. They get caught in compromising postions all the time! I hope my 16 year old son is better behaved than them!

 

I just thought or started worrying about the false preg. issue. Hadn't even thought of it till this time. Like I said, I like to have something to worry about and I guess my brain thought I didn't have enough!

 

Sue, I have one of those type dogs. She is beautiful to look at while running but let her get in a situation where she needed something to back her up and she just didn't have it. I found she was better if I took her to where the stock didn't know her. I thought that might bring her power up at home but it never made a difference. She's my best lounging buddy now, but thank doG I got dog(s) that now have something to back themselves up with. It makes my life so much easier than to have to sweeet talk her up all the time. The other day I was letting Dew help feed quite a few ewes, one was getting pushy. I haven't worked on her gripping at all. I reverted back to weak dogs, grabbed a leg and said really exciting like HERE...BITE. Boy, did she match my excitment. That ewe didn't challange her or the feed again. I learned to ask in the manner that I want it done.

 

I do think I helped the power issue develope by putting to much training pressure on Raven when she and I were frist learning. Sometimes it's better to let them make mistakes and get in there and rough up the stock a bit, at least for the dogs with questionable power. Seems to help them figure out they really are in charge. I didn't spay her till she was way over 5 so if that helped I hate to think what she'd have been being fixed early. I don't think it matters as much for the girls.

 

sorry for the off topic chat.

 

Kristen

[MrSnappy]

I often wonder if Celt would have had more self-assurance and confidence if he'd been left intact until he was mature.

 

This was the advice I received from both my trainer and my vet, so I waited until Briggs was 2 years old to neuter him. It never made a difference - he was still shy, lacked confidence and was dog aggressive. The only difference was that he stopped marking once he got neutered - and he marked *everything* before that.

 

My most self assured dog is Mr. Woo and he was neutered before I got him, and he was not a year old when I got him - his personality is all confidence. Tweed is weird and was neutered at 4 months, but Tweed would be weird *anyway* He didn't lift his leg to pee until he was 5 years old. He doesn't get mistaken for a female though. Mr Woo does, because of his orangeness and ridiculous tail.

 

I love those leonine manes that intact males sometimes get. Since I have two Aussie mixes, all we get are pants!

 

RDM

[Bo Peep]

I'd like to hear some real SOLID advice about early neutering. I always heard that it was in the best interest of the dog (testicular cancer, etc..) to neuter ASAP then I hear about "filling out". With the females, I did it before first heat, unless they were looking pretty good on the trial field (LOL) Really, by 3 you should decide if they are working or not. JMO-

And RDM- Tweed is a lovely dog, I'm sure a pain in the butt at times, but you being the "food lady" will love this dog forever, despite all quirks. Usher gets mistaken for a female because he's so handsome I imagine Tweed is also, judging by the photo's.

[martySQ]

So, I had been thinking the same things in regard to my girl baby Bess who is now 6 months. I was wondering when to get her neutered. I know about the chances of cancer and all, but wondered when her body was matured, and if 6 months was really the best time to neuter or not.

[Sue R]

Sue, I have one of those type dogs. She is beautiful to look at while running but let her get in a situation where she needed something to back her up and she just didn't have it. I found she was better if I took her to where the stock didn't know her. I thought that might bring her power up at home but it never made a difference. She's my best lounging buddy now, but thank doG I got dog(s) that now have something to back themselves up with. It makes my life so much easier than to have to sweeet talk her up all the time. The other day I was letting Dew help feed quite a few ewes, one was getting pushy. I haven't worked on her gripping at all. I reverted back to weak dogs, grabbed a leg and said really exciting like HERE...BITE. Boy, did she match my excitment. That ewe didn't challange her or the feed again. I learned to ask in the manner that I want it done.

 

Too bad that I can't just go up and grab a cow! I do try to help him out but if I use my stick on a cow to nudge or poke, Celt flies back off the pressure and gets all brainless. Lots of anxieties. When he does manage to realize that he has "tools" to work with and, that when he uses them right, he becomes a much more different, more confident, more assured dog and, of course, the stock recognize that and respond to it.

 

He can be fine on new stock that don't realize that he's weak. Stock that is clever and tests him, and realizes that he doesn't have confidence and strength, has won the battle and know it.

 

I do think I helped the power issue develope by putting to much training pressure on Raven when she and I were frist learning. Sometimes it's better to let them make mistakes and get in there and rough up the stock a bit, at least for the dogs with questionable power. Seems to help them figure out they really are in charge.

 

Well, me too, in terms of my getting yelling if he was getting too "enthusiastic". I'm sure I didn't help his confidence level and anxiety.

 

sorry for the off topic chat.

 

I am very grateful for it. Anything and everything that I can learn and do to help him (and myself) progress.

[Ooky]

I am also happy for the tangential info. Not stunting the power with too much training pressure or calling them off for overenthusiastic stuff sounds like the sort of first experience thing you don't get many chances to get right. I'm planning to put Odin on sheep for the first time this fall, so it's really good info for me to hear before I start. So I don't get to feeling bad about the sheep at first if he chases them a little, or try to control his behavior too much at first (am I interpreting that correctly?). I can't know if he'll have an issue with power like the dogs you describe but he has such a gentle friendly personality I just can't imagine him being real tough stuff. And he was neutered early -- too early, in retrospect, but it was recommended by the vet and I didn't know all I do now. Of course I want someone else to "work" him the first time or two since I don't have ANY idea what I'd be doing, but he's my dog and I think pretty quickly I'd want to work with ruin him myself, if he can move the sheep at all.

[in2adventure]

Hey Becca, hope your feeling better soon. Boys that I have had, have usually been between 2 and 2.5 when the boyish looks and baby brain start to fade to Im a big boy now. Im not sure if it is due to hormones/testosterone but Im sure it plays a roll. Right now, Hank is going on 6 months and he is gangly and what we like to call "The Rubber Dog" everything is loose and clumsy. We are hoping he lives through this stage, as his clumsiness is a danger to himself as he bounces, trips, slides, falls on his face and runs into things and launches himself off the porch and couch...awe hell, he is in perpetual launch mode at the moment, its the only move he knows right now.

Most days, his puppy antics are a hoot, but still I wish he were 2 already!

 

This is Grady to a T! He'll be 7 months on the 15th. I was watching him run on the lake front today and thought how wierd he looks. He falls down stairs, runs into door jams, falls off the couch, gets his feet tangled in everything and even fell of the bed once and got lodged between Lucia kennel and the bed I couldn't help but laugh at him.

 

He is also in launch mode. This scares me a bit because it's definately NOT what he does best. Poor guy, if he survives the first year without injury I'll be amazed

[Bo Peep]

So, I had been thinking the same things in regard to my girl baby Bess who is now 6 months. I was wondering when to get her neutered. I know about the chances of cancer and all, but wondered when her body was matured, and if 6 months was really the best time to neuter or not.

Well, for the first thing........ your baby girl "Bess" will not be neutuered. She will be spayed, or however you spell it. I had my gal spayed way too long and lost her to cancer at 15. I can show the ugly pics, but you DO NOT want to see them. Get her fixed ASAP- Just my feelings. Females don't seem to change much and if after 6 months, I , personally would get her spayed. JMO