Jade created new commands...

[JaderBug]

Jade has created her own new commands for "get the kitty." "Get the kitty" actually comes in handy when I can't find the cat, but she needs to get an 'off' switch for it.. She likes 'get the kitty' so much that she seems to have created her own commands that make her do this. They are my everyday actions, but apparently now they mean 'get the kitty.'

 

Here's a list of new 'kitty' commands:

 

"That'll do!"

"Go away"

Shutting a door

Closing a drawer or cabinet

Getting up

Coughing

Sneezing

Plus any other random occurance

 

Any time one of these things occurs, her eyes light up, her ears perk up, and she takes off like a rocket to go torpedo the cat. It's particularly annoying when the cat is on the bed because Jade is starting to push the bed off the box spring.

 

How do I get her to leave the cat alone in general? What is considered OK for dog/cat behavior? Is following the cat around alright? Staring from a distance? The cat doesn't seem to mind (most of the time).

 

What do I do to erase these commands?

[Ooky]

Here's a list of new 'kitty' commands:

...

Shutting a door

Closing a drawer or cabinet

Getting up

Coughing

Sneezing

Plus any other random occurance

 

That doesn't sound like a command, per se!

 

I also laugh because I am often stuck with the opposite problem - cat getting in dog's face too much. Dr. Benway loves to do things he knows will get a rise (and understandably so) from Odin. Including rushing the dog to elict wild chasing, trying to steal food, waking him up by pouncing on him. Maybe Jader just wants the cat to chase/play with her?

 

How is your kitty with this treatment? I'm lucky in the sense that Odin is 1) the stronger animal and 2) he really likes Benway 99% of the time. Also, it's practically impossible to get a cat to do anything, unlike a dog. If your cat is feeling harassed, though (I don't know that she is, I've just had many that would feel harassed by such treatment and would have been miserable if subjected to it), then I would be really firm with Jade that the behavior is unacceptable. However it is you do that for stuff you really want to take a stand on. In my case, I growl/lunge at Odin and occasionally will do a brisk collar-shake. And be prepared to have to do it frequently until she realizes you won't put up with it.

 

I know I'm not really in any position to give advice about dogs, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But I have coordinated my cats around other dogs when we lived with them and my cats with my rats, and the way I saw it is "no one has the right to make any one else miserable (or endangered) in this house, whether you like it or not." If the kitty doesn't mind Jade so much, then I could see taking a more relaxed approach.

[Chesney's Girl]

For me personally I think dog ignoring a cat and vice versa is the best dog/cat interaction. It drives me crazy because Chesney is SO fixated on cats that he shakes. I can tell him enough and he will call off easily and lay by me, but he can't fight the urge to stare at them, and to me that is not acceptable so he has to be put away if we have a cat visiting.

 

As far as commands that have morphed into a different or unintentional meaning, once she goes and does it, I would go follow her and make it very clear that was not acceptable and to listen better. Also you can come up with a sharp correction that you use when you even see her thinking about going and getting the cat. If you also have space and time you could always tether her to you so that she really understands that just because you are doing certain routines doesn't mean they mean to get the kitty. I would refrain from having her "get the kitty" until she really understands that only "get the kitty" means get the kitty and not everyday occurrences.

[vanillalove]

I also laugh because I am often stuck with the opposite problem - cat getting in dog's face too much.

 

That's because he's an Ocicat and they are friggin' nutjobs! They don't fall into the same category as other cats at all, haha!

[bcnewe2]

and the way I saw it is "no one has the right to make any one else miserable (or endangered) in this house, whether you like it or not.

 

Wonder if that works with unruly teenage boys? I've tried the collar shake, he just gives me that dumb stare thing!

:D

Maybe he's got some Ocicat in him?

 

Seriously, I don't think bothering a cat is acceptable at all. Even if the cat is ok with it, the next one might not be and the outcome could be ugly. I raised Mick with his own kitty. He loved his kitty. Then at about 6 months old I let my son get a new kitty. This one was a ferral rescue kitty, very young but wise to the world. He hated Mick right from the start. Mick didn't understand why it was ok to play with his kitty but not that kitty. Ended up very badly. The new kitty grew into a real jerk (not that I blame him, if I had a Mick on my butt all the time I'd get rather bitchy too) and would growl. It finally ended up that the new kitty attacked Mick (again not that I blamed him). That started Mick down the horrible road of hating all cats. I can almost control him but if he's off lead, it's a race to get to Mick before he gets to a cat. And he's serious about it. I think he'd kill a cat if he could get a hold of one. I've tried all kinds of things. He knows it's not allowed but will do it anyways.

Recently he totally freaked me adn himself out. He's a working dog. Nothing stands in the way of his stockwork. Cats, food, other dogs, dogs in heat....nothing. We were working at a friends. He was tired and hot. Doing chores and they weren't done. One of their cats jumped right into his path and he for a moment forgot that he was working. Started to chase the cat, then realized what he had done. He quickly got back to work and looked real sheepish for his faux pax but I was totally discusted and let him know it.

 

So for the matter of cats, I think I'd be putting a stop to any kind of over the top interest in cats. No staring, no fixating of any kind, just in case you run into a cat that's not into it. You could end up like us. A true to the bone cat hater.

 

The sad thing is my son is a cat person and I feel like a real jerk with 4+ dogs then telling him NO he can't have a cat!

 

Kristen

[Shetlander]

So for the matter of cats, I think I'd be putting a stop to any kind of over the top interest in cats. No staring, no fixating of any kind, just in case you run into a cat that's not into it.

 

I agree. Even if you find it useful for some reason to have Jade "get the kitty," she appears to be too much into that game. Worse, you are not part of the picture in her mind as demonstrated by her going off after the cat on her own. There is a lot that can go wrong if the behavior is allowed to continue. As far as how to stop the new "commands," make it crystal clear to her that you will not tolerate cat chasing and pestering. Be firm, be consistent, don't ask for the behavior at other times and hide that you find her behavior amusing (if you do).

[JaderBug]

OK so I haven't been letting her trail after the cat so far this morning. Obviously, she's not terribly happy about it (she's whining about it, but she'll just have to whine). She's been laying in the office with me, listening to everything the cat is doing... is that acceptable? Now the cat has walked into the office to hang out by the window... I can't really keep Jade from staring at her from across the room (can I?). So I've started playing ball with her (ball trumps the cat).

 

Is listening to the cat run around the same? what about when the cat comes into where Jade is (and Jade is being good?)

[Debbie Meier]

No keening up on cats period, I learned that the hard way, though I never allowed or encouraged the dog to "Get the Kitty" I did not disallow him from keening up on the cat, it really sucks when the cat is out watching the dog, (yeah, our barn cat likes to spectate) you send the dog to flank around the ducks and the dog flanks around the cat. It becomes an issue when the task with the stock is more difficult then the perseved task with the cat or when I won't let him do what he wants to with the stock. I know I'm not the only one with the problem, lots of growns at a trial when a cat stolled off acrossed the field, more then one person commenting on that they know their dog is just going to go after the cat rather then go out on it's outrun.

 

In my case as I'm getting more handle on my dog I can isolate the cat out as not the living breathing being I want moved at the time and refocus the dog on one group of sheep or another, or even put him on the chickens vs. the ducks, unlock from the chickens then go get the ducks. But, if the cat is in the vacinity he still won't leave the cat on his own, he will try to put the cat "with" what ever other stock we are working with, annoying, if only I could roll back the clock and be more diligent with what I allowed my dog to work, but I guess that's what my pups are for. I'm sure there will be another regret that I will get to isolate out when I start working future pups, trying to learn from my mistakes on these pups.

 

Regarding all the commands, in your example Jade seems to be offering only one behaivor for every command, the one she enjoys the most, the more you allow it the harder it is going to be to get her to present the proper behaivors to the proper command, she may be developing the habit of offering the behaivor she most wants to do rather then what you most want her to do, and you are not developing the habit of showing her what you want by not allowing the incorrect behaivor that she offers. You could have big problems with this when you get to the trial field, eventually you will want her to go right and stop, for example, if she has been allowed to do what she wants when you give a command if right and stop is not in her play book at that momment your not going to get it, not until she decides it is what she wants to do. The only way you will be able to get the job accomplished is to manipulate the job into what she wants, it doesn't cut it when you are being judged on a specific course with the expectation of keeping the sheep on a specific line and not have the dog loop the loop around the field. You can pull it off when you can lead sheep or in the venues that offer titles and judge based on the dog exhibiting herding traits, or if you are running novice in some of the point/time venues, but beyond that it's pretty tough to get anything done when the dog runs the show.

 

BTW, from my expirence dogs that have been allowed to run the show at home and away from stock often times will decide that they will not work stock unless it is their way, the handlers are left to take what ever the dog gives them and are left allowing incorrect work because they have no way to get change. Trying to hold the dog to a higher standard in the training pen then out of the training pen will just get the dog wanting out where there are less requirements or they will drive harder to get what they want with the stock and refuse to be shaped into what you want. I have come to believe that the sooner we introduce requirements, standards and expectation to our dogs the more successful we will be when it's time to go to start our training on stock.

 

Deb

[bcnewe2]

I guess it's ok. My wish is that they'd totally ignore cats all together. But if all she does is stare at the cat, you are still in control. So better than nothing. Just make sure she's not doing more when you're not around. You could walk out of the office or where ever when the cats around and spy on her to see if she's still only starring.

 

Good luck, it's a hard battle. I do agree with Liz, firm, consistant and no asking her to get the cat, ever. To tempting to freelance when you're not there.

Kristen

[Chesney's Girl]

If Jade can be relaxed in the same room as the cat and doesn't stare at the cat then she can stay in the room. If not then one of them has to leave the room IMO. Listening to what the cat is doing is all fine too if she isn't in the "ready to spring" at any moment attitude. Like if you move she jumps up thinking it means she gets to get the kitty. Relaxed and sleeping means no attention on the cat, which is best.

[Ooky]

That's because he's an Ocicat and they are friggin' nutjobs! They don't fall into the same category as other cats at all, haha!

 

 

You got THAT right!

 

I complain a lot, but secretly I'm the Dr's biggest fan. And while I agree that in many cat-dog relationships the best you can hope for is complete ignoring of each, I wouldn't trade their relationship for the world. It really makes my day to see Benway rub up against Odin or him to lick Benway's face. Sometimes I do wish I could control Benway a bit better, but you could collar shake him all day long and I gaurantee all it would get you is a claw in the nostril and one very self-satisfied evil little monkey.

 

Jaderbug, I wish you luck in getting Jade over the hump of kitty withdrawal.

[Shetlander]

I can't really keep Jade from staring at her from across the room (can I?)

 

Sure you can. When she is staring or listening (obsessing), she is practicing a behavior and putting herself in a state of mind that you don't want (excited, wanting to chase and pester the cat). I will interrupt my dogs for things like hard looks or being too intensely interested, when I don't like where that may be leading. If you want relaxed behavior and ignoring the cat, then I would work on getting that. Listening and getting excited thinking about the cat just ratchets up her desire to chase.

 

If the cat comes to Jade, given how intense she's become about this behavior, I would probably insist that Jade stay low key (in a down, polite, brief sniffs) and not engage in play even if that is what the cat seems to be initiating. And if the cat was too attentive, I'd probably shoo it away from Jade. I've had dogs play with cats but they were closer in size and the dogs were not obsessed with the cat and could easily be redirected to other activities.

[afrancis]

...I will interrupt my dogs for things like hard looks or being too intensely interested, when I don't like where that may be leading. If you want relaxed behavior and ignoring the cat, then I would work on getting that. Listening and getting excited thinking about the cat just ratchets up her desire to chase.

 

Just occurred to me that you could work with Jade to exercise her ability to ignore other things too. I'm thinking of RDM's famous shots of dogs with cookies at their feet. I've done this with Skye and asked her to "Leave it". The whole time she is refraining from eating said morsel, her eyes are averted. This seems to me to be a great exercise in self control. Of course, she did the same thing by necessity when we've had squirrels in the house....

Ailsa

[bcnewe2]

I don't think you can compare food to cats. My dogs aren't motivated by food what so ever. They have self restrain with sheep and almost everything we do. I can redirect all off them off behaviors that I find offensive but Mick and his cat thing is beyond me. I had him at a Jack K. clinic and we sorta addressed the issue. He was better and is a bit better than he used to be, but he's still to weak in that area. I choose to not own cats because of it. Recently I was farm sitting for my friend. they have 3 cats. The cats are dog savvy and I didn't invite Mick into the area I fed the cats. It went fine. Till the time that the cat jumped right into his driving path with the sheep. I think it's was so ingrained in Mick, he wasn't even aware of what he was doing.

I had Dew in with me and the cats. It was a reg. obsession. Nothing I couldn't call off. or control, but Mick stimies me to this day.

We manage it but I do feel bad for my cat loving son.

 

I also don't think Jade is destined to attack the cat. Just a behavoir that you don't want to encourage. She is all about the kitty but not taking it over the edge. Why not nip it in the bud now on the just in case clause. She could be hurt if she ever did that to a dog aggressive cat. BTW, I"ve had lots of cat owners tell me their cat will teach mick to leave them alone. The last time I let that happen I choked the cat out of his mouth. Wasn't a little cat either. I felt horrible that I let the lady talk me into trying that. Won't do that again.

 

Kristen

[Ooky]

I also don't think Jade is destined to attack the cat. Just a behavoir that you don't want to encourage. She is all about the kitty but not taking it over the edge. Why not nip it in the bud now on the just in case clause. She could be hurt if she ever did that to a dog aggressive cat. BTW, I"ve had lots of cat owners tell me their cat will teach mick to leave them alone. The last time I let that happen I choked the cat out of his mouth. Wasn't a little cat either. I felt horrible that I let the lady talk me into trying that. Won't do that again.

 

YIKES! That cat owner was not real smart on that one, I guess. Benway has dominated every dog I have ever known him to meet, even supposedly cat-aggressive dogs, but I would never "offer his services" that way.

 

I have no doubt there are individual animals from BOTH species that cannot tolerate or live with (or it wouldn't be smart to try it) the other species. My heart cat Mesto couldn't live with dogs, for instance. He was terrified of them and never himself, even around very cat-polite dogs like our Calvin (family dog). It sounds like Mick really can't be trusted around cats, which in my mind doesn't make him a "bad dog" any more than Mesto was a bad cat. It sounds like you know your guy and his limitations, and since you own him NOW, his needs come first. As it should be!

 

But I do think that the more common situation is that they can at least live together safely (even large dogs) and mainly ignore each other, and I also agree nothing about Jade's situation sounds terribly dire in the grand scheme of things. I have probably been influenced in this opinion by owning two very dog friendly cats in my life, Benway and Maggie. Maggie was my cat originally and then my mom's cat when I went to college. She was a blue point Siamese so also an oriental cat breed, but she loved dogs. She got along smashingly with our LabXGolden we had before Calvin, and her and Calvin really were best friends. It sounds corny, but they both respected and loved each other, and it was evident in both their actions consistently. Calvin was PTS for dementia, but he never forgot who Maggie was.

 

I apologize for going off about this, but my mom just put Maggie TS this week at the very old age of 19, and I just can't help thinking about her when reading this conversation. Her love for dogs was exceptional, it's true, but when you see an animal relationship like hers and Calvin's I think its pretty cool, and definitely better than when they merely tolerate one another. It makes me reeeally happy that Lobo and Odin get along just fine, on the positive side of neutral, and that him and Benway are such good friends. Well, not even friends, but more like brothers who squabble sometimes. Odin is def. the younger brother and only recently lets Benway lay down with him -- before he was scared because Benway lays down the hammer so hard in other situations

 

But in both the good situations I've experienced, it is VERY true that the dog is not the one who is so interested he/she's always the one controlling the interaction. Obsessiveness isn't particularly friendly whether its dog-on-smaller dog or dog-on-cat. And in my mind it means the animal is reacting to, rather than interacting with the smaller weaker animal. I didn't recognize this right away when Odin was "herding" Lobo at 12-13 weeks, because nothing had escalated yet and I clearly didn't understand anything about what a "Working-bred" dog really was. It is SO much more apparent, at this age (30 weeks), why that behavior could have turned so bad. Later, trying to teach him to not "herd" small dogs was MUCH more difficult.

 

In my situation, which granted is not everyone's, I know the cat and the dog as well as anyone on Earth, and am an at least ok judge of what they might do to one another. I have let Benway have more leeway in telling Odin off than I would ever allow Odin, and as a result he is extremely respectful of cats. If we meet one on the sidewalk he looks to me for guidance (because hes not allowed to go off the sidewalk) and will walk right past within feet without any sniffing or looking - no LEave-it needed, which is frickin amazing considering how he is with people, kids, and other dogs. I thank Benway and Lobo's training more than my own on this one. Benway, for his part, is actually really gentle with him, in the grand scheme of things with a definite "nutjob"!

 

Ok, sorry to go off like this. It's a subject very near my heart, especially now with Maggie's demise, I guess. End of an era, and all that.

[bcnewe2]

I apologize for going off about this, but my mom just put Maggie TS this week at the very old age of 19, and I just can't help thinking about her when reading this conversation.

 

I'm so sorry for you loss. We had a cat that lived to around 20, He was a very special cat. He lived with all sorts of rescue bc's and lots of cats. He was quite the diplomat. Mick's first kitty was part siamese. Something about those cats, they worm right into your heart. I always thought it was the talking that made them so special. The guy that lived to 20 was there in the beginning with Mick, I"m so glad that his issue didn't come out till after that cat was gone.

 

And in my mind it means the animal is reacting to, rather than interacting with the smaller weaker animal.

 

This is a good way of explaining the difference. I've always thought it quite strange that Mick was raised with cats and has turned out like this. I can speculate on why but doesn't matter. What matters is he's not at all OK with cats.

 

I was very happy to see his sister not have an issue with cats. I heard that his mom was horrible with cats too. Wonder if it's a bit genetic.

 

Till Mick crosses over the bridge we won't be having another cat. No matter how bad my son wants one. I feel like it's torture to the cats.

 

The cat lady might have been a nutjob but it was me that let Mick go. Shame on me.

 

Now, tell me what's an ocicat?

 

Again, I'm sorry you lost your childhood cat friend.

 

Kristen

[Ooky]

I've always thought it quite strange that Mick was raised with cats and has turned out like this. I can speculate on why but doesn't matter. What matters is he's not at all OK with cats.

 

Yeah, this is my greatest fear. I knew there was at least some possibility of this when we got him, because in some ways you just never can tell. It's in my mental best-interests to sort of figure it's not too weird of a situation, in general, that it all turns out great in dog-cat households, or at least just fine. Thinking of my friend's houses, and Benway and Lobo's take-no-crap personalities, I'm thinking we have a good chance. ? Can you tell I'm so hoping his good attitude remains, I would hate to have a separated house.

 

Now, tell me what's an ocicat?

 

My favorite-est cat breed ever! My heart cat was a plain old rescue black am. shorthair X, but ocicats are darn cool. Here's a link, they are seriously like the BCs of cats - read the "breed temperament" section. I have the hardest time getting pics of Dr. Benway, because he's like a shark - always on the move. I will try to get more recent pics of him and Odin too - its tough because they both stop what they're doing whenever I pick up the camera

 

Dr. Benway, the evil jerk-face. Who I love. He is a chocolate ocicat (similar to BCs, they come in a variety of colors).

 

 

 

 

HEre is DH holding Benway because I was complaining he never holds still. You can see the anger!

 

Wish I had pictures of Maggie and Calvin that were scanned in. Sorry to hi-jack your thread, Jaderbug.