Aggressive/Reactive dogs:

[stockdogranch]

This is triggered from the thread about the dog biting his owner, as well as (what seems to me to be ) quite a few other posts relatively recently about highly reactive dogs. I'm wondering if anyone has a sense of where these dogs are coming from...are they from puppy mills, or BYBs, or sports bred, conformation bred, working bred, or what ? It just seems that there are more and more of these types of posts in fairly recent history. I guess what I'm wondering is if there's any connection to any particular type of breeding, that is, for some specific traits (perhaps other than working ability?) that is inadvertently producing these dogs "with a screw loose," as it were. Or is it just lack of careful breeding? I guess my bias is that I don't think I see this type of behavior in well-bred working dogs. Or is it in the dog's early training or lack thereof? Any thoughts?

 

A

[Flamincomet]

I think it has a lot to do with the lack of careful and responsible breeding.

I know, and have seen, many relaxed and calm conformation bred border collies, as well as the not so calm ones.

I can also say the same of sport bred border collies.

And working bred border collies.

 

Autumn

[mbc1963]

I've heard from enough BC owners with "shy" or "skittish" dogs - just walking in my local area - to make me think that maybe this tendency is genetically related to the same tendencies that make good sheepdogs: watchfulness, dislike of unexpected changes in motion, etc.. My dog has come miles in dealing with people. He generally lets them pass with little or no notice when we're walking. BUT... if we meet a person he likes, and that person is with another person Buddy doesn't know, he'll still react (barking and shying away) to the unknown person. Frankly, I think it just pisses him off when things don't happen the way he expects! That'd be similar to mindfulness of moving sheep, I'd think.

 

Having said that, though, my dog was a Puerto Rican street dog for about 2 years before he came up here. Can't offer any info about breeding or puppy-milling, but his reactivity has been similar to the reactivity of numerous other "well-bred" dogs I've read about in books and on these boards.

 

Mary

[Wendy V]

Poor breeding and poor raising, along with the incredible pressures the dog faces with having to fit into modern suburban/city life. Perhaps not all homes are suitable for owning dogs, much less border collies.

[Maralynn]

I've got a dog reactive/agressive dog. He is a nicely bred working dog that lives in a pretty much ideal situation for a BC.

 

I think his problem comes from an early lack of socialzation (he had none for his first 1.5 years) and some handler error on my part when I first had him out and about with other dogs in the vicinity. He does get along fine with my other dog and has no issues with people. And the dog agression is getting better with alot of work on my part.

 

I thnk part of the problem comes from the fact that it is a sensetive high drive breed that learns quickly - they aren't nearly as forgiving as your average Golden Retreiver.

[Tranquilis]

I'm not entirely sure that there are more reactive dogs... I wonder if it isn't a selection/confirmation bias kind of thing - People who do have reactive dogs seem more likely to post about their troubles, looking for assistance, and when one owner of a reactive dog posts, others whom do happen to have reactive dogs post in sympathy or to assist with their lessons learned... and then someone else says "Hey - That helped, lets ask for help, too!" Before you know it, there's a rash of posts and threads on reactive dogs - Not that there were any more than previously, but its just that they've all broken cover at once.

 

Or not.

 

Until I've got some solid evidence, though, that's the theory I'm working under.

[bcnewe2]

I don't want to sound like I'm bashing anyone in particular but I'm wondering if it's the same as Maralynn and Wendy have mentioned.

 

Then add to that people are getting dogs to be replacement kids or at least treating them that way.

You've got people who rush to the doc with their kids for every little thing, is it the same with dogs. Picking apart every little detail and trying to "shape" behaviors that to me would be best knocked right out of the dog from the beginning.

What I accepted early in my dog life as acceptable behavior would now not be tolerable. I don't have standing plans on how I wouldn't accept it but it's like training sheepdogs, makeing the right very comfortable and the wrong very uncomfortable.

People are afraid of "hurting" the dog. Feelings and physical. Long ago these things weren't accepted, the dog got a smack on the hind end or a pop on the head. Not advocating beating the dog, but I think some things need more than "shaping". Could just be the words people choose to use, or the words I choose to use. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

I have some food guarders....at least amongest themselves. If I find one trying to bully the other about food, They get what ever punishment or correction they need. Sometimes it is punishment. Not time out either. Not beat the dog but the message I send is clear.

I also have a "reactive dog on dog male" I simply refer to him as a dick. He's not allowed to pick on other dogs. He does and gets corrected for it and we move on. If I were to pick apart his behaviors I think I'd have to put him to sleep. He's bad. But him and the situation works for us. Probably wouldn't have when I first started.

 

I had a dog way back when I first started with BC's that we were his 7th home at 18 months. He was a food guarder, people aggressive and wouuld snap at you if he thought it would help him get what he wanted. He was way worse than what the other poster described. I totally freaked out about him. Then I found a good stockdog trainer that I took him to. Within one session the dog had a new attitude and no he wasn't beat, but he knew then what was acceptable and what wasn't. So did I. He lives with my daughter now. Hasn't bit anyone in the last 10 years. BUt left to his own devices I'm sure he'd be dead now. It's seems sort of funny now. Back then I said he was just waiting/looking for us and that's why he had so many homes. I saw no red flags that we were his 7th try at a home. Now I'd be saying, what the heck is wrong with that dog and probably wouldn't even take a look at him. Good or bad, it's what my history has taught me.

 

I'm sure there are poorly bred dogs out there with genetic issues that should be out of the gene pool but I also think dogs are dogs and unless you treat them that way, they're gonna try to get one over on you. Not all dogs but those leaning towards being pushy and dominant will try if given half a chance.

 

Just my 2 cents.

Kristen

[PSmitty]

I think it's a combination of things, mostly as Wendy said, some poor breeding and some poor raising.

[Belleview]

Right on Wendy (and, Hola.)

 

I've become friends with a lady who comes from a successful agility background as a competitor & trainer, who is really serious about learning to work her well bred dog on stock. Thru knowing her, I've been around more sport homed BCs & their owners in the last year than in my previous 15+ years with working dogs. One thing that constantly amazes me is how so many of these folks will not correct their dogs for ANYTHING. The dogs jump on me with dirty feet, bark & snark needlessly at other dogs. They are not *corrected*, they are leashed, crated, and maybe given a "cookie." The dogs are never required to learn any simple self control.

 

Another point that I think Wendy makes is that many of these dogs suffer from a real lack of meaningful exercise, owing to their urban surroundings. The most I see many of them getting is a few turns around some agility equipment and maybe a leash walk. The dogs rarely get good long runs, off leash, no heeling or obedience harping, just being dogs hanging out with other dogs.

 

I think this kind of dog raising can make even potentially nice & well balanced dogs annoying and obnoxious, and likely makes the not-so-well balanced & high mainenance ones dangerous in the wrong hands & in the wrong situations.

 

Lori Cunningham

Milton, PA

[Lenajo]

I have a few I would class as reactive during their youth, but nobody seemed to notice it but me and we worked through it.

 

Socialization buries it pretty deep - early, consistant socialization to not only tolerate, but enjoy, the close quarters and contact that modern dogs must endure.

 

And they you have to accept what the dog is genetically. Some dogs won't ever be social butterflies, and forcing it on them frightens and pressures them until they go defensive, or worse - offensive.

 

I think too many people want all dogs to be Golden Retriever Robots that love the dog park and mauling children.

 

The answer lies somewhere between breeding, socialization, training/raising, and management. (eta management would include the exercising, putting the dog only in sensible situations, etc)

 

Too many owners want to use "breeding" as an excuse for a dog who can't tolerate their inept training and management. Then we get into personal resposibility failure - we dump the dog on someone else rather than own up and do what's right.

 

 

I've got a dog reactive/agressive dog. He is a nicely bred working dog that lives in a pretty much ideal situation for a BC.

 

I think his problem comes from an early lack of socialzation (he had none for his first 1.5 years) and some handler error on my part when I first had him out and about with other dogs in the vicinity. He does get along fine with my other dog and has no issues with people. And the dog agression is getting better with alot of work on my part.

 

I thnk part of the problem comes from the fact that it is a sensetive high drive breed that learns quickly - they aren't nearly as forgiving as your average Golden Retreiver.

[Pippin's person]

I suspect that it's not specifically more reactivity in BCs but more reactivity in dogs generally and, like Tranquilis and Kristen said, a rather altered way of dealing with reactivity than in the past. I have a well-bred working dog who can be reactive to people and dogs--maybe some of the issue has been in his raising, but overall, I don't think he was poorly raised or under-socialized.

 

Some of it is probably his DNA, but I wonder a lot about the other issue that Wendy mentioned--the particular pressures dogs generally face as they live increasingly constrained lives (I'm talking very generally--not with reference to any specific dog--there are no doubt countless individual differences).

 

It's not just that they don't roam free much anymore--but they are left with so few choices to make and so little responsibility for those choices (or so few consequences if "responsibility" is too anthropomorphic). What I see in the occasional companion obedience classes I teach or in many other areas is how rarely many dogs are faced with making any particularly meaningful decisions about their lives.

 

If I look closely at the nature of the decisions my dogs make in the course of a normal day (e.g. more than just what toy to pull out of the toy bag or what part of our fenced in yard they should poop in), they are not particularly meaningful decisions. And I think our dogs have it pretty good--they are trained regularly, they exercise their minds with daily training and various activities at least a couple of times a week, etc. Still.....

 

One of the things that I think became so appealing to me about working my dogs with sheep (besides feeding my own desire to be regularly pwned) was I could see them making decisions about things that had apparent consequences. I'm still very much novice to understanding when to intervene in those consequences, but it does strike me how much honing "decision-making" is a part of training a sheepdog. Other activities are similar--I see it in top agility handlers and dogs; no doubt would be found in SAR work too and in other places where the dogs have to make decisions that entail consequences.

 

Even writing like this strikes me as a symptom of the problem--but I don't think it's only a matter of breeding and raising--it's also a matter of the general environment in which dogs live. I think the book "Merle's Door," makes a similar point quite movingly.

[juliepoudrier]

Anna,

I agree with Tranquilis that we probably see a lot more here (a bias) because of the nature of this forum (where people feel comfortable asking about problem behaviors).

 

I think it's a combination of nature and nurture, which is being exacerbated by the incredible jump in popularity of border collies among all pet owners and the associated breeding practices that go with meeting public demand. So you have a lot of poorly bred dogs (meaning a lack of some sort of meaningful breeding direction) going into the hands of unprepared owners, and the next thing you know, there are all sorts of aggressive/reactive dogs out there.

 

J.

[Cynthia P]

In the old days (i feel so old) there weren't rescues etc, people had more respect for dogs and let them be dogs. If you were a farmer with an aggressive dog it wouldn't be around very long.

 

We see the same thing in draft horses. High strung draft horses...that shouldn't be. In past days they would have been sent for meat, not an option in very many places now. Those genetics leave and do not get carried on. No one was feeling sorry for them than, they just didn't work out.

 

cynthia

[Shoofly]

I think maybe's it's a square peg in a round hole problem. Modern, apartment or suburb living, dog park attending life isn't what these dogs were made for. They were made for wide open spaces with sheep, and one person, not a crowd. Up on "the hill", no one cares if your dog doesn't like children or people fawning over him. A really brilliant trainer told me one time that he could forgive a lot faults in a dog that had the right work in it.

 

I don't understand why people have to insist on forcing a dog to be what he's not bred to be. I mean, toy dogs are *bred* to be good pets and lovely companions so why not use some common sense and get a dog that is designed to be what you want? No one asks a Maltese to round up cows and sheep, so why should border collies be forced to live a life that better suits the Maltese?

[Debbie Meier]

IMO, for the most part it is the people not the dogs, there still are some dogs that just can't take pressure and break down/attack for little to no reason, but I think for the rest of the problem dogs the owners have failed to lead or to fairly show the dog the right path. For some reason people want their dogs to like them rather then respect them and the owner cater to them, they take on the subsurbient role allowing the dog to assume the alpha, the dog, in most cases has not choice but to take control of the situation and ends up exhibiting natual behaivors that are later considered problems. Then the owner tries to take over and lead, they are not confident in that role, are unfair and inconsistent and the dog fights back either by lashing out at the unfairness or trying to maintain their alpha position.

 

I strongly feel that what we see on TV has a lot to do with what we feel is aceptable, I cringe when I see commercials with dogs flying around houses, jumping on owners at will, demanding food and attention & behaiving poorly. Watch the dog commercials, tv programs and even cartoons, most exhibit bad behaivor as the norm. Go out to a dog park or to a dog event, dogs are pulling on leashes, lunging at strangers wanting attention, barging in on other dogs spaces. The people that have well mannered dogs do not want to submit their dogs to the crazyness, so there are no proper examples to be seen.

 

For many people the best thing they could do is put their beloved spoiled rotten pets in a kennel run and leave them alone, feed them and water them and don't take them out except when they are going to dedicate training time or 100% of their attention to the dog. When they get board with the dog and no longer have time to supervise them put them back in the kennel run. But, so many people have been taught that leaving your dog in a kennel run is unfair or cruel they can't get themselves to do it and would rather continue letting their dogs rule the roost and end up rehoming them or sending them out to be PTS.

 

I see that Autumn was here, I have to wonder, how is Ghost in a kennel run, does he back up away from the gate on his own when you enter, does he wait to exit until you give him the ok, when you feed him do you make him stay back until you set the bowl down and then wait for you to ok his approch, does he sit still next to you when you snap a leash on or do you have to wrestle with him to get a leash on, just those little things could make a huge difference in his relationship with her. Also, putting him into a run and limiting the interaction to simple requirements sets up consistency, you have fewer requirements so you can stay consistent and be successful at reshaping the dogs relationship with the handler.

 

Deb

[Lenajo]

Most people shouldn't own more than a 10 lb brachycephlic undershot dog that is physically exhausted running from one end of an apartment to the other, gets out of breath if it thinks about biting, and if it did bite is too undershot to do any damage.

 

Sad...but true.

 

 

I don't understand why people have to insist on forcing a dog to be what he's not bred to be. I mean, toy dogs are *bred* to be good pets and lovely companions so why not use some common sense and get a dog that is designed to be what you want? No one asks a Maltese to round up cows and sheep, so why should border collies be forced to live a life that better suits the Maltese?

[1sheepdoggal]

Anna, I use to ask myself the same thing, but at this point Ive seen so many of them I quit wondering and just shake my head anymore. I think more than anything, Lenjajo pretty much hit the nail on the head, as it being a conglomeration of things, but with emphasis on how dogs are handled, trained and raised. I know several times I have posted to just nip some thing in the bud quick and simple by putting a boot to a dog, or jerking a knot in one, and been met with "Oh the Horror! Id NEVER do that to my dog!" Well, I dont give any advise to posts like those any more, but ya know what? I can turn any of my dogs loose in any setting and trust that they know their manners and limits, I can take food and give food without fear of getting bit or growled at, I can pretty much do what ever I want to any of my dogs, within reason of course, and so can anyone else and know that they have been raised to respect me and others, dogs and other animals alike. And it doent just go for BC;s. I also have a very large GSD and a Std. Poodle at home, and can expect, and expect being the opporative word here, to get the same compliance from any of my dogs. Anyone who has ever seen me with my dogs knows they are not afraid of me, they are not cowards, afraid of an outstretched hand, and are not aggressive to anyone or anything. That said, being as I aquired most of them as pups, Id have to say that more than anything it was their rearing that made them the dogs they are. That I had a clear and consise idea embedded in my mind about what I would and would not put up with, and the quickest and simplest most effective way to get my point across to the dog about what was and was not acceptabe. I dont go for all the clicker and conditioning training. It takes to long and doesnt send a message right off the bat to my dogs. I dont want them to have to guess or try to figure out anything. I want them to know right now what I expect, and it saves a lot of time and problems in the end. However, I think that those of us that use stockdogs, and those of that have and have had for many years, mulitple dogs and do training and handle dogs daily, have more of the upper hand, and more experience than that of the average dog owner. I think we have seen a lot more and know how to handle it better, and so have an advantage there. So I feel that a goodly amount of the problems some folks have, is a lack of experience, to much tolerence, to may different training methods that can boggle the mind, and not enough consistancy in the begining with a dog, because they dont want to hurt or scare or be mean to the dog, then, when all that being good and kind and nice to the dog start to show the holes in their raising and training, then they are willing to go back and do what ever they need to do straighten the dog out, or.,.,.,PTS or re-home it. Sadly, some dogs never get to be the great dog they could have been, and will carry baggage forever because some one didnt want to break their spirit, or whatever. True, some can be blamed on breeding, but even a badly bred dog can be taught respect in most cases, So, much like the new fangled way some folks raise their kids these days, we have applied these simalar techniques to our pets, and just as we ( we, being a general we) have more kids being locked up these days for shooting or raping the little old lady down the street, for a lousy 20 bucks and a stereo system, if those kids has just had a boot firmly planted up their ass when they were young.....well, I think the same goes for dogs. Do we blame parents for breeding badly, or do we blame the way the kid was raised? I understand we are not talking children here, and dogs are not children, but I think a lot of how we do both, raise our kids and our dogs, can apply and with very simalar results. JMO

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've actually seen, from the rescue side, what appears to be a real rise in cases of biting dogs and other "square peg round hole" situations as Robin put it.

 

I'm with the people who point mostly to "nurture" though I also agree that there's a rise on thoughtlessly bred dogs. First, I'm not a pro in the sense that I've not been educated formally or trained, and have about a 90% success rate with dogs that are really aggressive in their original homes, just by offering the kind of structure that Border Collies are bred to crave.

 

Second, I've seen pups that I know are out of solidly bred lines, ones I'd use to improve a dog of "iffy" temperament - and I've watched them become reactive, nervous, shy, sulky, or snappish in certain hands. Some people just shouldn't own Border Collies until/unless they mature as trainers.

 

I agree that too many people put pressure on their dogs to be Stepford Dogs, when they give the dog any thought at all. Border Collies aren't hard to handle, but they do need to be treated sensibly - somehow many people have lost their ability to be sensible when it comes to dogs.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

My 2 cents as an owner of a reactive dog...

I think some of it has to do with breeding and lack of socialization.

 

Daisy is crossed with malamute, she came from some guy in the country. No doubt an accidental litter or perhaps he's a byb, but I doubt it as he pretty much just wanted to get rid of the pups. I had no clue what a byb was at the time, nor did I have any idea what bad breeding and lack of socialization could do to a dog. That being said, the litter recieved minimal socialization up until we got her and then not to much until her shots were complete (she did not even have the first set until 9 weeks). So there goes the important socialization periods.

 

I am not trying to make excuses for why my dog is the way she is. If I had realized earlier potential problems, I would have changed a lot of things, but sometimes people just don't know any better. I am just glad that I was smart enough to realize there was a problem and pro active enough to find out how to fix the problems. It is a lot harder to deal with now with a dog who is 4 (this week! happy birthday Daisy!) than it would have been if I had seen the red flags when she was a pup. But you live and you learn, I would never in my wildest dreams give up a dog that I had taken in, especially a dog with problems. She is my resbonsibility and we are learning together. I am also thankful for forums like this one that has members way more experienced in the world of dogs and most importantly border collies that I can learn from. I think we see more "reacitve" dog questions because of forums like this, not because there are more reacitve dogs, but because people are seeing problems that can be solved with a little training and people are seeking out advice, instead of giving up.

 

julie

[dinah_kay]

I thnk part of the problem comes from the fact that it is a sensetive high drive breed that learns quickly - they aren't nearly as forgiving as your average Golden Retreiver.

 

 

I think this is a great point! I am a owner of a reformed reactive dog, lol. I do think having a high drive compounds issues easier than in some other breeds. In certain situations I still have to keep a close eye on him, but honestly I think that is only because I know his personal history. I know people who don't know his history think I am overly cautious in certain situations since they have never seen him misbehave, but in the back of my mind I am always managing just to be safe. At this point in my dog's life he has a longer history of "normal" behavior than the does of "reactive" behavior, but I still try to be very aware of the situations I am putting him in just in case.

 

I really am not putting this out there to start an argument, but I feel strongly, at least in my dog's case, that his behavior stemmed from a reaction to his first adult rabies booster. He had been perfectly normal up until that point, and then within 10 days of his first adult rabies booster he became highly reactive (his reactivity was triggered by other dogs not people.) After going through lengthy histories with the vet behaviorist, medicating, and a ton of other things, the one thing that really made a lasting difference was treating him for vaccinosis.

 

Of course I am not saying this is the cause/answer for all reactive dogs. I do think early socialization plays a big part too, but in the case of my dog homeopathic treatment for vaccinosis was the one thing that finally made a lasting difference in my dog.

[Dixie_Girl]

I don't get the socialize, socialize, socialize, phylosophy(sp?). I got Skip, Jackson, and Cheyenne as pups. We live out in the boondocks. Can't see any of my neighbors. I never took them to dog parks, etc.. But still they have never met a stranger. Any one who comes to my house is greeted with enthusiasim and an attitude of "oh, we're so glad you came to see us!" Holly was kept penned when people came over that she didn't know at first. So she could watch how to act. She is now the same. So, I would tend to think the "majority" of aggresive behavior is more learned than anything else. Not saying there isn't some that just ain't wired right, but I think it's mostly how WE react to things. Dogs are dogs, and they are very good at it. But they make lousy people.

[Shetlander]

I know several times I have posted to just nip some thing in the bud quick and simple by putting a boot to a dog, or jerking a knot in one, and been met with "Oh the Horror! Id NEVER do that to my dog!"

 

What exactly do you mean by "putting a boot to a dog" or "jerking a knot in one"? To be honest, I find it hard to know how to respond to those kinds of phrases. It could just be colorful expressions or something I personally would never consider doing to a dog. When you mention kids who needed "a boot firmly planted up their ass when they were young," I'm assuming you weren't recommending kicking children (which I don't condone) but rather disciplining them (which I wholeheartedly agree is vital to their development as decent human beings).

 

I won't claim my dogs are perfectly mannered. The Lhasa is a toad, but 9 times out of 10 he is lovely with people and I watch him like a hawk so the 10th time, I can intervene before he does something obnoxious. I can do anything to him without fear of being bit and I can't imagine my other two dogs biting anyone over handling or food. When reading the other thread, I was thinking how awful it would be to live with a dog who might actually bite me. Raising a dog up the way I feel is best and being able to nip behaviors before they develop into problems is the main reason I put up with puppies.

[Lenajo]

If the dog is not a resource guarder, shy, etc...basically of a 100% stable temperament genetically then you can get away with a lot of mistakes and misses during the early years. Some dogs are just hard to ruin

 

The risk you take though, if you don't do the early stuff, is that the dog will have some missing/off genetic stuff that will be virtually impossible to deal with as an adult.

 

Socializing early hedges your bets.

 

If you are a breeder, then you need to be aware of what you started with. Training and socializing does not breed itself forward. The baseline temperament will.

 

 

 

I don't get the socialize, socialize, socialize, phylosophy(sp?). I got Skip, Jackson, and Cheyenne as pups. We live out in the boondocks. Can't see any of my neighbors. I never took them to dog parks, etc.. But still they have never met a stranger. Any one who comes to my house is greeted with enthusiasim and an attitude of "oh, we're so glad you came to see us!" Holly was kept penned when people came over that she didn't know at first. So she could watch how to act. She is now the same. So, I would tend to think the "majority" of aggresive behavior is more learned than anything else. Not saying there isn't some that just ain't wired right, but I think it's mostly how WE react to things. Dogs are dogs, and they are very good at it. But they make lousy people.

[Maralynn]

I don't get the socialize, socialize, socialize, phylosophy(sp?). I got Skip, Jackson, and Cheyenne as pups. We live out in the boondocks. Can't see any of my neighbors. I never took them to dog parks, etc.. But still they have never met a stranger.

 

I think it makes a difference how you raise your pups. I would imagine that yours have been raised in a home with good pack structure and firm but fair rules. And they trust you and they've never had a reason not to trust a stranger

 

As far as I could gather, Kipp was raised by a person who didn't know how to deal with a BC pup and left him crated/kenneled much of the time, or he was left to his own devices. His breeder took him back because he wasn't getting treated right. With all that backgorund, Kipp still seems pretty solid mentally and does learn quickly - new things may bother him a bit at first but he gets over it. If Kipp had grown up in a household like yours he probably wouldn't have the reaction issue.

[Kyrasmom]

I think dogs have always been reactive but people were less phobic. If a dog growled because you stepped on him while he was sleeping, you learned to be more careful. Parents were more vigilent and taught children to respect dogs. Now the dog can do no right unless he's the most exceptionally patient pooch on the face of the earth and what were deemed "normal" dogs are now reactive or even aggressive and people need to learn to be ALPHA.

 

I know there are problem dogs as I have one of them....but I really think the majority are just dogs being dogs and people thinking they should be robots. They need structure, they need rules, they need consistency, but they also need to be dogs because otherwise they'd be people and I don't much like many of those.

 

Maria