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Pros and cons of having dog "started"


CJ_&_Mitch
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I am a novice handler training a novice dog. Have been getting some suggestions to send him off for 4-to-6 weeks of training, then I get trained to work him after he's trained. Would be very interested in hearing how others feel about this practice. Looking for good reasons pro and con...

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A pro is that, with a good trainer, this can be a nice way to get a good start on a young dog. It may sound pricey but, compared to travelling to lessons and taking much longer time to accomplish the training when the lessons are spaced apart, it may be a much cheaper alternative in the long run.

 

It may very well also give your dog a much more solid start or foundation than lessons, especially if you are working the dog in between at home and (like us all) making mistakes that you will have to undo.

 

One con is that you, as a novice, also need to be getting training along with your dog, and so need to make provision for that.

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Pros: the dog gets a good start, which means that you will avoid some/most of the newbie training mistakes that you could regret later.

 

Cons: As Sue said, you will still need training, so getting the dog started is not a substitute for your training. A second con is that you might not know enough to find a good trainer, suitable for your dog.

 

If you know of a trainer whose training style and philosophy suits yours, it can be a great way to get a jump start on your dog's training, which will benefit you both in the long run. But I would caution that as a newbie, you will need to be careful who you choose to train your dog--research is very important to insure that you choose a trainer who is going to improve your dog, not make things worse with strange training methods, etc.

 

J.

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I agree with both Sue and Julie. I would also add that it kind of depends on your goals, too. Do you have livestock and need a dog? Or do you have a dog and want to learn to work it? If you already have livestock and are just looking to get a dog functional as quickly as possible to help you with your stock, then it's probably more expedient to have the dog started, and then a few lessons for you to know how to work with the dog. But if learning to work a dog is your goal, then it's a good thing, I think, to see how that works from the ground up. However, if that's the route you're going, I would make sure that the trainer you are working with is very knowledgeable, as you want to learn to do things right, and not mess up the dog in the meantime. If you are just working on your own, things are likely to get messed up somewhere, no matter how many books you read and videos you watch--there's just no substitute for having a good mentor. Either way, a good trainer is key, whether you are having that person put a start on the dog, or having that person teach you and the dog together,

 

A

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I am a novice handler training a novice dog. Have been getting some suggestions to send him off for 4-to-6 weeks of training, then I get trained to work him after he's trained. Would be very interested in hearing how others feel about this practice. Looking for good reasons pro and con...

 

 

Been there done that! For me the Pros were--my dog got a great start that I had not enough knowledge to give her. I went up to see her work every few weeks and through some watching saw some of the work done with a young dog. I did alot of research before picking a trainer--taking lessons with my old(er) border collie with this trainer, seeing the facility and getting a feel for the program. And the key is that it IS a program. Any person , even a great handler, can take your dog for training, but unless that trainer actually puts quality time in, you have wasted money and gotten your dog off to a bad start. I left my dog there for more than two months , but that was my choice. I have not stopped taking lessons with her since and I am trialing her and I love it.

 

The cons for me--none.

 

 

All the posters I think have given you great advice.

 

Good luck!

 

Carolyn

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Carolyn has given sound advice - make sure you check out a trainer thoroughly. If possible, talk to some people who have had dogs trained by that person. *Anyone* can call themselves a trainer and talk a good game, and there are some people out there taking in dogs that will do more than just not get your dog trained, they'll make a mess of it. The funny thing is, some of those bad trainers are asking and getting way more per month than a really good trainer too, so don't let the cost per month fool you.

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Lots of great advise, but I keep seeing the words "good trainer" and "experience". I agree with Robin's statement:

 

Anyone* can call themselves a trainer and talk a good game, and there are some people out there taking in dogs that will do more than just not get your dog trained, they'll make a mess of it

 

and I have personally had the experience of seeing this type of "trainer" on more than one occasion. Which leads me to ask the question, for the OP's benifit, as well as others that are reading along, can you all put some definition as to what to look for in a person who would be considered to be and makes a "good trainer" with "experience. I think a lot of us know what those words mean, but some may not, and it would be good to outline what exactly a good trainer really is when looking for one, how much experience should one have in order to be considered, and what the persons expectations should be when interviewing them. What are good questions to ask, what would be considered good facilities, etc.

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One other thought about an alternative to having a dog started (and I think that, for a novice, having the dog started but making sure you are also getting instruction is a great idea) is a top-quality clinic (that invites dogs and handlers of all experience levels). One thing about a clinic is that it will allow you to see dogs and handlers at all levels of proficiency, and often shows you the "why" of how certain things are done the way they are (in other words, what might not make sense to you as a novice may make more sense when you are also able to see the bigger picture of why that foundation is important to a dog that is further along in training).

 

Words like "good" and "experienced" are subjective - people might be more willing to offer advice or comments in private through email or PMs if you solicit advice (and give your email address for feedback). Be specific about your location to help people pinpoint resources in your area, also. Not everyone is willing or able these days to travel very far for lessons or clinics. My lesson trip is almost 300 miles round trip, and any clinics I can attend are that far or further. That amount of travel time and/or expense is not doable for everyone (and it's an effort for me).

 

Money spent in putting a good foundation on yourself and your dog is well worth it in the long run. Shortchanging the foundation will backfire on you and cause more problems for you and your dog (and your stock) down the road. As Robin noted, costs charged are not a gauge of quality instruction.

 

Best wishes!

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Not so much a pro or con, but a suggestion: Decide what your goals are. If you are keen about trialing soon, then having someone else start your dog may be the right choice. I've read alot of good advice here on ways of doing that right.

 

If you need a right-hand-dog to work on your farm, then buying a trained dog or sending off a pup is also an economic and efficient way of getting that right-hand to start work sooner.

 

On the other hand, if you prefer the 'journey' to the post, then get out there with a good trainer, and do it all yourself! My opinion only but it's way more fun and way more satisfying. Heck your first dog may not be 'perfect' but you'll learn alot along the way.

 

You know yourself better than anyone and if you don't think you'd enjoy the struggle, then go for the trained dog. If you like a challenge, then do it yourself. (with good help of course!)

 

Nancy in Ontario

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and I have personally had the experience of seeing this type of "trainer" on more than one occasion. Which leads me to ask the question, for the OP's benifit, as well as others that are reading along, can you all put some definition as to what to look for in a person who would be considered to be and makes a "good trainer" with "experience. I think a lot of us know what those words mean, but some may not, and it would be good to outline what exactly a good trainer really is when looking for one, how much experience should one have in order to be considered, and what the persons expectations should be when interviewing them. What are good questions to ask, what would be considered good facilities, etc.

 

I would use some common sense in looking for someone, and find someone who has done what you want. If you want someone to train your dog, find someone who has trained dogs and get some references and watch those dogs work. Keep the expression "the proof is in the pudding" in mind, and ask for some pudding. :rolleyes: Don't buy a trainer based on what is said, or on what look like qualifications. There are plenty of Open and non-Open handlers out there who don't train their own dogs, or maybe have half trained one dog themselves. If you want lessons in writing checks to buy dogs, go to these people for lessons. If you want lessons in training your dog, or want your dog trained, find someone who has done just that, and *successfully*, for other people. If you want lessons in how to be a wildly successful novice handler, go to a novice for lessons. But don't expect that novice person to get you to Open. If he or she could do it, chances are they would be there themselves.

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The first thing I would want to know would be if you have any stock handling experience. Do you know sheep and how to handle them? I would not be so interested in how much dog experience you have had but how much hands on livestock experience. There are a lot of variables as to whether you should do it yourself with help or have the dog started and then work with supervision. Also what type of dog you have. Biddable or hard etc.etc.. I would remember one thing real clear. It only takes a moment to teach a dog a bad habit and a lifetime to try to "fix" it. The advise on choosing a trainer wisely is great advise. I know lots of trainers that are terrible teachers but great trainers and handlers.

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I am a novice handler training a novice dog. Have been getting some suggestions to send him off for 4-to-6 weeks of training, then I get trained to work him after he's trained. Would be very interested in hearing how others feel about this practice. Looking for good reasons pro and con...

 

I have done it both ways with a couple of dogs over the many years. CJ & Mitch, there are many opportunities for training of all types where you live...as others have stated you need to be clear with yourself and the prospective trainer, what your goals are. Otherwise you may get pigeonholed into one track or another that may not be what you ultimately want.

 

The biggest con I can give you is that the dog may or may not work well for you when you get it back. It may only work well for the trainer. That is something to consider based on the dog's personality and temperament.

 

With my current latest dog project I am opting for the "journey" method with monthly lessons instead of sending my dog out for training (at least for now). That said my current dog has a fair amount of talent and I know a bit more, having worked with several dogs prior.

 

Conclusions: dogs are different as the people who own them and the trainers who work them. With one of my dogs it worked very well to send him out. With another dog it wasn't very productive. As others have stated you must be very careful to find the right situation both for you and your dog.

 

Good luck!

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We did that with our Aussie. She loved her trainer and did well. Now the trainer has turned her over to me and cut us loose. I am struggling with semi dog broke sheep and my girl is learning bad habits because of me. If I had to do it over again, would do it the same way. Just me. Probably not the best way to start though. N

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I learned from the best, I think- Kathy Brunetto. She was my mentor. She gave me a lot of great advice. I was as green as green could be. She told me, you'll always ruin your first dog. She was pretty close- I ruined the first 2- LOL. Then, she had me herd the sheep myself, without a dog- gave me some "sheep sense"- very smart.

 

If I had it to do over again, the 3rd dog would have been a trained dog, with some knowledge under my belt. I'd hate to spend all that money for training and ruin the dog.

 

Here's a little game you can play on the computer

http://intermountainstockdog.com/minisheep.htm

 

Also, put signs on your steering wheel that say "come bye" and "away" so you don't get flustered. I know this sounds silly, but when you are first getting started, it REALLY helps!!

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We did that with our Aussie. She loved her trainer and did well. Now the trainer has turned her over to me and cut us loose. I am struggling with semi dog broke sheep and my girl is learning bad habits because of me. If I had to do it over again, would do it the same way. Just me. Probably not the best way to start though. N

 

 

Of course I don't know your exact situation, but but I would say if your trainer "cut you loose", and by that I think you mean you are left to your own devices to carry on with your dog, then that to me would be a problem. When my dog came home after training, I worked her at home by myself to get a feel for her and (hopefully) get her used to working for me with my not so great whistles. Tested the waters so to speak. Then it was on to lessons once a week, as close to that schedule as I could keep it. In our lessons, depending what was happening any given moment, I was told what to do in a "training" session with my dog and also how to respond to the same action in a trial( which is often different from one another) to correct whatever the dog was doing at that moment. Always the two were differentiated and the info came hard and fast, as the dog was working.

 

I feel everyone is different and there are many different goals for all. For me I have had that experience of training ( using the term somewhat inaccurately) my old(er) dog and she made a fine ranch dog. I wanted more than I had the tools for so went the way I went with the next dog. Seeing the numbers of Open handlers who sent young dogs to my trainer to start reinforced to me that having a trainer work with my dog was an ok plan. We all need to do what we want the way we want to and enjoy the dogs.

 

Carolyn

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You are right about having fun. We had another practice/lesson today. Outruns were much better and helpful hints from trainer were great. I don't think we screwed up too bad as my girl was in better form today. That is what makes it so much fun; being with my dog and among friends. N

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Thank you all for your responses. There were some really good questions that challenged me... and help me figure some things out.

 

1. I am a pet owner who accidentally got a talented BC from a rescue group. I have no livestock experience, no land, no sheep... just a dog who needs to work and a desire to be as good as I can be with and for him.

2. Because he's a surrendered dog (who went thru 2 foster homes before he got to us), I am reluctant to send him off again to some other "home"... and then...

3. I worry that he might not fit back into our "pet home" after living/working on a ranch full time for a lengthy period of time.

Right now we have to straddle the two worlds.

4. I'm also not driven (at least not yet) to compete. If we get there, well - that would be fun. But right now it's more about the process than any goal.

 

Since I can get to sheep fairly easily (compared to a lot of people) and to good quality trainers willing to work with us "as is", I'll probably stay on this route -- at least for now.

 

Thanks again!

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'm a pet owner like you, so I'll just speak from that perspective. Quinn doesn't show exceptional talent and I can't get him to lessons very often. Though his instructor has suggested several times that I consider competing, I just don't see that as realistic for my situation. I thought seriously about boarding Quinn for a month with the instructor, but decided against it for three reasons:

 

1. Quinn has had health issues that make me uncomfortable boarding him

2. He is my companion first and I'd miss him (possibly selfish but certainly true)

3. As much as he loves working sheep, he lives a very soft life with a doting owner. I don't know that the 30 minutes a day on sheep would make up for the other 23 1/2 hours as a kennel dog.

 

Now if it wasn't for the health issues, I might have worked through my concerns on items 2 and 3. But like you, I look at sheep herding training as a process or a journey more than a destination for my subdivision dog and me, so maybe not even then. :rolleyes:

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Your decision sounds like a wise one. I would miss my girl too. She would excell with the trainer if I could afford a month or two at her place. But, I would miss her terribly and that isn't worth the effort. For now we will work at home. After the ASCA trial this weekend with no legs we need lots of that. N

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