intersting stats on rescue

[ItsADogsLyfe]

I was just going through some sites online and found this interesting statistic. This was on a rescue site.

 

"1) Roughly a quarter of Border Collies entering rescue (though this varies with the region) are those that have not displayed strong enough herding instincts to make themselves efficient herding dogs on working farms. Rather than trying to work against the natural abilities (or inabilities) of the dog, the working family gives the dog over to rescue so that it can be placed in a more appropriate, pet home."

 

So if this is accurate then 1/4 of dogs in rescue are washed up working dogs? It goes on to say that a "larger proportion of the dogs are given up because they bit someone, almost inevitably a child" So this means to me that the majority of border collies end up in rescue due to being reject working dogs or biters? Here is a link to the website if anyone wants to look at it.

 

http://www.bcrescue.org/bcwarning.html

[Pearse]

I was just going through some sites online and found this interesting statistic. This was on a rescue site.

 

"1) Roughly a quarter of Border Collies entering rescue (though this varies with the region) are those that have not displayed strong enough herding instincts to make themselves efficient herding dogs on working farms. Rather than trying to work against the natural abilities (or inabilities) of the dog, the working family gives the dog over to rescue so that it can be placed in a more appropriate, pet home."

 

So if this is accurate then 1/4 of dogs in rescue are washed up working dogs? It goes on to say that a "larger proportion of the dogs are given up because they bit someone, almost inevitably a child" So this means to me that the majority of border collies end up in rescue due to being reject working dogs or biters? Here is a link to the website if anyone wants to look at it.

 

http://www.bcrescue.org/bcwarning.html

 

Those aren't statistics. They're guesses. In addition, they're bad guesses. You left out number 3 reason; "By far the largest percentage of dogs are turned in because they are "hyper" and far too difficult to handle."

 

So number 1 reason 25% of dogs can't herd. Number 2 reason, >25% bit someone. In my math, 25% + >25% > 50% but reason (3) says "the largest percentage" are too hyper. That all adds up to >100%.

 

They also don't say that a quarter of all dogs are "washed up" working dogs. They said that a significant number of dogs "have not displayed strong enough herding instincts. What's the difference? Your interpretation suggests that these dogs were bought/bred by stockmen and then surrendered. Their website does not. From what they say, those dogs could be the product of back yard breeders (or back barn breeders) who couldn't sell their pups to working farms.

 

I'm not saying that you assumptions aren't correct, but there are no numbers to back up the assertions made on the web site so those aren't "statistics" and, in my opinion, what you are saying isn't exactly the same as what they are saying (at least the way I read it).

 

I also think that their assertion that "the herding instinct, if strong, is overwhelmingly incompatible with a household containing children" is total nonsense as is

 

a child is basically a sheep without much wool - a sheep in wolf's (kids) clothing if you will. A child running across the backyard or out the front door is, to the dog, a sheep that has decided to break from the fold. Seeing the child "making a break for it", the Border Collie's natural instinct kicks in and it streaks out in front of the child to cut off its escape

 

and also

 

Can't I train the dog not to herd the children?

No. The instinct, if present, is exactly that - an instinct. It is neither trained nor learned. The behavior can be modified or channeled into other activities (which is why Border Collies make such wonderful Frisbee dogs)

 

A Border Collie most definitely can (and should) be trained not to chase (and it is chasing not "herding") children, horses, deer, rabbits, poultry, squirrels or anything else you don't want it to chase, and the notion that Border Collies "herd" children is idiotic. Border Collie pups will chase anything that moves. Unless discouraged from doing so at an early age, they will continue to chase anything that moves. My Border Collies are much more likely to run from running children than after them.

 

Then there's this:

What are the two most common reasons people get Border Collies?

1) I heard they were really smart dogs and I wanted a smart dog so it would be easy to train.

 

2) I heard they were great with kids and make wonderful family pets.

 

Though these thoughts may have some validity to them under certain circumstances, for most Border Collies and owners, these ideas are fallacies.

 

Whomever wrote this needs some basic education on Border Collies as a breed. I understand that their primary goal is to prevent idiots from adopting dogs surrendered to rescue, but surely their secondary goal is actually placing these dogs. Misinformation will not help do that.

 

Pearse

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I would take anything on that web site with a grain of salt. It was indeed written by someone who was just guessing.

[bc4ever]

Wow!! I didn't realize what a pain in the butt, and how dangerous a breed I had living in my home. If I'd read that page before getting Scooter, I wouldn't have even considered getting him! Luckily, I had prior knowledge of BCs and their personalities. What a bunch of hog wash!!

[Laurae]

Isn't that site run by He Who Sues?

[MrSnappy]

What are the two most common reasons people get Border Collies?

1) I heard they were really smart dogs and I wanted a smart dog so it would be easy to train.

 

2) I heard they were great with kids and make wonderful family pets.

 

Though these thoughts may have some validity to them under certain circumstances, for most Border Collies and owners, these ideas are fallacies.

 

 

Whomever wrote this needs some basic education on Border Collies as a breed. I understand that their primary goal is to prevent idiots from adopting dogs surrendered to rescue, but surely their secondary goal is actually placing these dogs. Misinformation will not help do that.

 

I'm certainly not going to argue with the, erm, question of the validity of this source. However, my experience with owner surrenders over the last 10 years has been that 1) people bought a border collie because they thought a smart dog would be an easier dog and 2) they heard border collies make excellent family pets. I can't really argue that these things come up SUPER often when dogs are being surrendered.

 

This has come up before, and many breeders here of stockdogs have completely poopooed the idea that border collies are not good with children. But for two years we tracked owner surrenders and something like just over 50% of the dogs we got into rescue in that 24 month period were from homes where the dog had either bitten or threatened to bite the family child or a child close to the family. I am extremely reluctant to place most of our dogs in homes with young kids. If they have a history of behaving badly with young kids, they go to adult only homes. If they have an unknown history with children (or unknown at all) they also go to adult only homes. This is because the potential for me to be sued for placing an "aggressive" dog in a home with children is so high, I err on the side of extreme caution. The only dogs that go to home with small children, from my rescue, are dogs that have a demonstrated history of being good with kids. I can't afford the risk of doing it any other way.

 

Further, it might surprise you to know how many applicants with children tell me that they want a border collie because they heard they were the ultimately family dog (where do people hear this? In my experience, the average family with two working parents and kids to drive to soccer, ballet, baseball, hockey, tutoring etc. do not have the time to devote to the busy and bored border collie who is eating the siding off their house) and then they go on to tell me that they think it's "cute" that border collies "herd children." They have this weird idea that they can use this Super Smart border collie as substitute Baby Sitter. It's so smart it will be able to fix them dinner, read them a bed time story, and has the added bonus of "herding" them away from highways, the roofs of tall buildings etc. Certainly, debunking these myths is a large part of my job.

 

I disabuse people of the notion that border collies "herd" children because they do not. But certainly they do chase them down, bite them, and react to their movement inappropriately, fairly often. A keyed up young border collie in a busy household that doesn't have time for the dog, really, is going to make its own rules and its own fun, and sadly that often results in a dog biting the family kid. What seasoned BC owners have to remember is that the bulk of the applicants we rescues get are NOT seasoned BC or even dog owners. They are just Joe Schmoes with these vague ideas of how awesome it would be to have Stanley Coren's Proclaimed World's Smartest Dog in their house 'herding' their kids. It can be quite challenging to get them to understand that their ideas are based largely in myth and superstition. And it can be quite depressing to see how many border collies we get from folks we turned down, so they bought a puppy that they did not have time for, and it bit one of their kids. And off to rescue it goes.

 

Of course there are oodles of border collies who live happily with families and have great lives. But this is not the case for SO MANY purchased puppies by well meaning but clueless people. I think sometimes in order to turn some of those latter types off the breed you have to oversimplify things to convey that the breed is probably not right for them. Certainly some of the info quoted earlier in this thread is nonsense, but even considering the source ... from a rescue perspective, some of it is actually totally valid too.

 

RDM

[PSmitty]

Isn't that site run by He Who Sues?

 

Bwahahaha!

 

Yes, it is.

[Sue R]

...He Who Sues...

 

Hmm, sounds like a story of which I am not aware...

[Journey]

Hmm, sounds like a story of which I am not aware...

 

Count your blessing then! You are most likely in the minority which is a good place to be...better than the majority which have been or threatened to be sued.....

 

Karen

[Tranquilis]

It goes on to say that a "larger proportion of the dogs are given up because they bit someone, almost inevitably a child"...

I'm not buying this claim for even a second. In fact, I'm calling it BS.

Biters are hard to place - They can only be placed if you can safely come to the conclusion that the bite was a fluke, or strictly limited to specific, easily isolated, group(s) of people.

We get very few biters - Mostly what we get are owner surrenders, strays, puppymill retirees, and the like. A small number are reportely 'aggressive,' but the majority of those are not actually aggressive, but just under-socialized.

[Kyrasmom]

I'm not buying this claim for even a second. In fact, I'm calling it BS.

Biters are hard to place - They can only be placed if you can safely come to the conclusion that the bite was a fluke, or strictly limited to specific, easily isolated, group(s) of people.

We get very few biters - Mostly what we get are owner surrenders, strays, puppymill retirees, and the like. A small number are reportely 'aggressive,' but the majority of those are not actually aggressive, but just under-socialized.

 

I've seen very few biters also (though I do all-breed) but have seen lots of dogs relinquished who were "crowned" as biters simply because they were being dogs and got a bit rougher than some parents want. We live in a world where these poor dogs need to be literally perfect all of the time. I know that BC's can be movement focused but it's quite natural for any young dog to give chase if kids are getting rowdy. That's what parents should be for: supervision.

 

It's a pet peeve of mine that people forget that dogs are dogs and forget even more that kids need to be supervised and corrected just as much as the dogs. There's a big difference between an aggressive biter and a pup who gave chase and maybe playfully mouthed a kid but a lot of people don't see it....hence why so many rescues are careful in placing dogs in homes with kids.

 

Maria

[Sue R]

Maybe I am showing my age but, when I was young, if you got bit (or nipped) by a dog, the first question that your Mom or Dad would ask is, "What did you do to get bit?" Too many people don't ask the question, figure out the answer, and work on the problem from a prevention and training (both dog and human) point of view. It's too easy to blame a dog for being a dog, for not being perfect and bombproof, and for sometimes reacting in the only way it can when appropriate dog warnings have been ignored.

 

Too many people expect dogs to "listen, understand, and speak human" when the people are not willing to "listen, understand, and speak dog".

[Lenajo]

Maybe I am showing my age but, when I was young, if you got bit (or nipped) by a dog, the first question that your Mom or Dad would ask is, "What did you do to get bit?"

 

We may have to compare birthdays because I was raised the same. In fact one of my most distinctly remember punishments as a child was was the result of me getting bitten - after I had been warned repeatedly to leave the dog alone.

 

I was also raised to play with other children, not with the dogs. We loved our dogs - they guarded the home, kept us company, hunted for us, many wonderful things.... but they were *not* toys. If you wanted to play you got a human, usually a sibling, an if you didn't have those the neighbor kid would do. Or wonders above, our *parents* would play with us.

 

And there lies the biggest source of problems for many dogs. People buy them, those baby wolves, to be a playmate for their baby primate. Do we know any other species as stupid as ours when it comes to things like that? It's like a Mama Zebra saying "gosh, the colt is bored, maybe I'll buy her a crocidile hatchling for a friend! They can grow up together!"

[Maralynn]

Maybe I am showing my age but, when I was young, if you got bit (or nipped) by a dog, the first question that your Mom or Dad would ask is, "What did you do to get bit?"

 

My folks rasied my siblings and I the same way, and we range in age from 10-30 So there's still hope!

 

When I was growing up my aunt had a dog that didn't care for kids. But the dog left us alone as long as we didn't try to pet her. We had numerous family get togethers at her house with anywhere form 4 to 10 kids present with no issues. Sure we all got nipped by her at one time or another, but universal adult response was "just leave her alone or you'll be in trouble from us too". Worked wonders, in fact if we got bit, we'd just quietly slink away hoping nobody noticed .

[stockdogranch]

Sue and Lenajo--I agree!!

 

A

[ItsADogsLyfe]

the worse dog bite I've ever gotten was from my own dog when I was a kid. He was an awful dog because my parents didn't have a lick of dog sense. When the dog would growl or snap at us my Dad would pet the dog to "calm him down"...hence the dog was rewarded for aggressive behavior. However I loved that dog and mourned him when he was put down at 15 1/2 years old.

[beachdogz]

When my son was maybe three or four, we were upstairs together playing ball with one of the dogs. My son had the ball and started "teasing" the dog by pretending to throw it, but not throwing it. The dog jumped up to grab the ball from his hands. He immediately started crying, "Mummy, she bit me! she bit me!"

 

No skin was broken and there was no mark. I'm sure he just felt her mouth as she grabbed the ball.

 

My point: If I had let my toddlers play with the dogs unattended, I would never have known the true circumstances. I might have thought, "oh my, is my dog a biter? did my dog bite my child?"

 

I wonder how many dogs end up in shelters because of an incident like that; no one supervises the dog and child and as a result, the dog is OUT...into a shelter and labeled a biter.

 

People are just not responsible and some people are idiots.

[JohnLloydJones]

I wonder how many dogs end up in shelters because of an incident like that; no one supervises the dog and child and as a result, the dog is OUT...into a shelter and labeled a biter.

 

An even more depressing question is how many dogs get PTS -- immediately, or by the pound -- because of an incident like that?

[Ooky]

I fully agree, and am also in the 30-yr range! Let me relate one of my very first memories. My family's 1st dog was a mini schnauzer that my grandparents were giving up and so they sent it out on a plane to us. The dog arrived totally freaked out, obviously. I was 4 and super excited to play with "my" new pet. Well, 1st of all, my parents were very clear when she arrived that this was NOT my new anything. I wanted to play and she was scared, so I started running after her as she tried to get away from me. I was told to quit it, probably repeatedly. Eventually, I tried to get her out from under the bed where she was hiding, and she bit me in the face, hard, and took a chunk out of my forehead (I still have the scar). I cried and remember being really angry, and when my parents saw what had happened, you know what there response was? That it served me right and that that was NOT the way to treat her. They cleaned my face up and then punished me. They weren't even in the room when it happened but didn't need to be to know who to blame.

 

Nena was a great dog, BTW, and well loved by the family for the next 8 years. And she NEVER bit anyone ever again, or showed any inclination to. But I have also wondered over the years how many people would have not only summarily given the dog away after that incident, but actually had her put down for being vicious and untrustworthy. I don't always agree with all the things my parents do with their animals, but I know I am the animal lover I am because they DID teach me respect for all creatures and that around animals, stupid actions= predictable consequences.

[bc4pack]

Maybe I am showing my age but, when I was young, if you got bit (or nipped) by a dog, the first question that your Mom or Dad would ask is, "What did you do to get bit?"

 

Me too. Folks lack knowledge of NORMAL dog behaviour... Have bought into thinking that dogs should NEVER have any aggressive

displays and that they should somehow fit into this nice little 'perfect dog' package.

 

I imagine we have quite a few that grew up learning 'empathy' towards animals. I've run into all too many parents who expect dogs to be babysitters and to act like stuffed animals,tolerating all kinds of rude behaviours from humans...and some of those parents grew up just like us.Maybe I have just seen a lot of "It's all about me." I don't get it.

[Tranquilis]

Maybe I am showing my age but, when I was young, if you got bit (or nipped) by a dog, the first question that your Mom or Dad would ask is, "What did you do to get bit?"

Yup-yup.

 

When the family Cocker Spaniel put her teeth through my face, she got yelled at, but far less than I did. Dumb move on my part, never to be repeated. Mandy died of old age, still in our household.

[Bo Peep]

I've never had one turned in because it bit, or at least they didn't tell me. Most people just took on more than they could handle. Border collies are quirky. I've had friends tell me "I don't know how you can live with those dogs- they're nuts" But that's why I love them.

 

I think they are great with older kids, say 6 and above, although mine love babies. Nothing like playing outfield when they have their friends over for a baseball game, or shooting hoops with a border collie around.

 

I've seen people I knew in Oregon and here keep a dog for as little as 10 minutes and the dog wouldn't herd sheep before calling rescue. No time to settle in just put them in the pen, wouldn't herd- off you go. So, I think it's all possible.

 

I was taught manners with dogs also. I teach my Grandkids, too. When I take mine out, I still see a lot of good parents say "pet easy", so there are still some people out there teaching their children good doggie skills. Now, we just have to teach the pet owners how to keep an eye on their animals with young ones around.