::Sigh:: A Bad Night

[mbc1963]

Buddy had an interaction with another dog tonight, and regressed to reactivity. He's got pretty solid bite inhibition, so his reactivity usually just means a bit of snarling and posturing as he drives away dogs he doesn't want in his face. But tonight, he seemed to snag a tooth on the other dog's nose. Aiiee! At first, we couldn't see any wound, but the dog kept licking, and sure enough he had punctured her nose. The owner was freaked out at first, less so as the wound closed up and became invisible. Still, she took the dog to the vet to get antibiotics - we were both worried about infection. (Naturally, I agreed to pay.)

 

I'm so disappointed - mostly in myself for setting Buddy up for this situation. The other dog was frisky, but Buddy looked like he wanted to play, so I let him go.

 

Three years plus, and I think I have this thing all sorted out, and then something like this happens. Poor dog doesn't have any clue anything is wrong, but I'm so upset.

 

::Sigh::

 

Mary

[sweet_ceana]

Don't get discouraged, look how far you have come that you trusted him to go play! Everyone has their "off," days.

[Laurae]

I agree; it's a minor setback. Sophie is in a similar position as Buddy (I often call her a reactive dog in recovery, much like an alcoholic might be). She hasn't had a scuffle in about a year and a half now, and she's had about three in the past four and a half years, so that's about her pattern. It's tempting in times like now, when she hasn't had any issues in so long, to think that she is fully recovered and no longer reactive, but the truth is that she'll always be a reactive dog. My job is to continue to work on her triggers when I can, but at this stage mostly to make sure I don't drop my guard too much and put her in a position I am not sure she can handle. Watch Buddy for the next few days, as he may have a sort of heightened sensitivity to other dogs until his cortisol (I think it's cortisol) levels drop back to normal. Then just keep working on reducing or just managing his reactivity as you did before this episode. You've made great progress so far--this one incident doesn't erase all of that good stuff!

[beachdogz]

Am I the only person in the world who can live without my dogs “playing”, “interacting”, “socializing” or whatever it is you want to call it with other strange dogs? I just don’t understand WHY everyone has to push this. Doggy daycare, dog parks, all this stuff that is part of our human society is now “doggy”. My doggy went to camp; my doggy has a play date; my doggy wears cute doggy clothes; my doggy goes to a spa; and on and on. So now my doggy has to go to a doggy psychologist because my doggy is neurotic. Has anybody out there thought that the reason our doggies have to be on prozac and ridilin is because WE are making them neurotic by expecting them to be human? And Lord knows, I don’t know that we have much to write home about. I think dogs have it hands down over us humans in the loyalty, friendship, and integrity department.

 

I have people in my new dog class that are just itching to have their dogs socialize and interact with my dog. My dog gets along just fine with other dogs. But I take my dog to class to teach the dog to focus on me; to respect me; to bond with me; and to work with me. And….not every dog is friendly with other dogs. Not every dog wants another dog in their face. And even if two dogs are friendly, that doesn’t mean that when they “meet” each other that they will get along.

 

I don’t think less of a person OR their dog if the dog does not like other dogs. In a pack situation, not everyone in the pack will get along. Some dogs just don’t like other dogs. Period. And dogs are…..animals. Period. I love my dogs just as much if not more than many people who spoil, baby, and humanize their dogs. I, personally, enjoy the fact that my dogs are dogs. THAT’S what I love most about them.

 

So, just my opinion mbc: I applaud you for working so hard with your dog to try and overcome the reactive problem. But don’t beat yourself over the head about it. You are doing what you can do for the situation…and your dog, well, he’s a dog. And he’s probably a darned great dog, too!

 

And yes, I know I’m going out on a limb posting such a controversial viewpoint.

[Laurae]

Well, I hike with my dogs frequently, and there are often other dogs on the trail. It's not that I want my reactive dog to want to play with other dogs. I've done a lot of work with Sophie to avoid confrontations if they approach us from behind or just suddenly and unexpectedly.

[Root Beer]

You've made great progress so far--this one incident doesn't erase all of that good stuff!

 

I second and third this! Speedy has had setbacks and I've found in the long run that occasional incidents do not undo all of the hard work and progress.

 

Give it a few days, regroup, and you'll be all set to move forward!

[Root Beer]

Has anybody out there thought that the reason our doggies have to be on prozac and ridilin is because WE are making them neurotic by expecting them to be human?

 

Separation anxiety, noise phobias, other phobias, obsessive compulsive disorders, etc. are not caused in a dog because the owner expects them to be human. Those are mental disorders caused by brain chemistry.

[Katelynn & Gang]

I am just wondering, was/is he always on leash when he acts out?

[mbc1963]

I am just wondering, was/is he always on leash when he acts out?

 

He is more reactive on leash, but no, this time he was off leash. I had been walking with another woman and her 2 dogs. One was "new" to Buddy, so we took our time, hung back, etc.. But the new girl was doing play bows, and Buddy was getting more and more interested in her. He got that particular look he gets when he does, indeed, want to meet/play with another dog. He was alert, interested, tail starting to wag. So I asked the owner if I could unleash him - a less threatened position for him - and hold her dog's leash (since she had a baby and another dog!). But, alas, her dog did a little lunge "in your face" thing. It's possible that Buddy actually thought he was protecting me, since I had put myself in the equation by holding the other dog's leash. (This is usually not a trigger at ALL: Buddy is happy to have me hold other dogs' leashes, give them loving, etc., if he's off leash.)

 

Anyway, thanks for the reassurances. And really, what happened isn't much more than two boys getting in a fight and one of them getting a bloody nose. I really do know I can trust Buddy not to fight with the goal of injuring; he just wants to tell the other dog to stay away. (In fact, the day before this, I had been in the woods where we see a pretty steady group of calm dogs. Buddy met two JRTs he barely knew, and I monitored it, and the owners were telling me how wonderfully friendly he was, and so gentle, and so happy... how far he'd come. I guess nature comes around with a smack-down for you when you get too comfortable, eh?!)

 

I will definitely monitor for the next few days. I absolutely agree that the days following an incident are a high-stress time for a reactive dog. As much as I hate that this other dog got nipped, I really hate that I set my own dog back.

 

Mary

[Shetlander]

Well, I hike with my dogs frequently, and there are often other dogs on the trail. It's not that I want my reactive dog to want to play with other dogs. I've done a lot of work with Sophie to avoid confrontations if they approach us from behind or just suddenly and unexpectedly.

 

Yeah, same here. 2 out of 3 of my dogs don't like strange dogs as a rule. I'd prefer they were friendlier, but I only ask them to be polite. Quinn is super friendly but even he would rather play with people than dogs now that he is an adult -- until dogs start throwing Frisbees for him, anyway.

 

Many dogs today live very different lifestyles than when I was a kid where the dog had someone home all day and was out more often bumping into other dogs who were also out. They might even be allowed to roam a bit (not that I would ever allow my dog to roam). The average dog back then seemed to have better "canine social skills" in that more casual environment. Do I think we can make our dogs neurotic? Sure, but as Kristine points out there is also brain chemistry and learned behavior that has nothing to do with the current owner.

 

Mary, hang in there. Sorry you had a bad night but think of all the progress you've made with Buddy. When I had a fearful (from birth -I got him at 7 weeks old-- that genetics thing) dog, one of my mantras was "he'll always be who he is." He made great progress. Sometimes I found myself absent-mindedly telling him to stop pestering someone for treats at class or a show. Other days, he seemed to regress and acted skittish to the point people would comment that he must have been abused. I think just like us, dogs have good days and bad days. Yesterday was a bad day, but now you and Buddy can both move forward. Try not to dwell on it or worry too much and keep doing what you've been doing to make so much progress.

[beachdogz]

Separation anxiety, noise phobias, other phobias, obsessive compulsive disorders, etc. are not caused in a dog because the owner expects them to be human. Those are mental disorders caused by brain chemistry.

 

 

I want to respond to this because I knew it would be taken out of context. I almost took it out of there when writing it, but I wanted to get input on it.

 

While I am not denying that there are dogs that are in need of treatment, I am finding more and more in our area that these things are being prescribed for what I cannot believe to be true "anxieties". I have a co-worker who's dog was licking his paws and chewing at the paws. It was not excessive; and we all know that there are allergy causes for this and also sometimes it's just something that is stuck there and the dog starts picking at it. (My personal opinion is that the dog has excess hair between it's pads (as my dog does) and they do not trim it and that can become uncomfortable for the dog.) But they are "vet junkies" and off they went. The dog was diagnosed with "separation anxiety" and poof! He's on meds. But the dog was doing the licking in front of them; not just when they were away. And I have to say that dog is at the vet an average of 4-6 times a month; no kidding. And I think they enjoy it!

 

Another person brought up the fact that her dog whines when she leaves the house. The dog does NOT bark excessively while she's gone; damage anything; hurt itself - but guess what! - separation anxiety....and meds. I'm sure we see this in humans also...some people just want to jump on the med wagon and now they think it's cool to have their dog jump on it too. And I'm pretty sure that person #2 probably asked for meds. And in both cases, the dogs continued the behavior after months on the meds.

 

Now those of you who will say, "Well, you're not a vet" -- so true. And I'm not claiming to be "an expert". It's just an observation. I just see more and more of this, first in our human society and now it has trickled down to our dogs. I think it's sad.

[bcnewe2]

I'm going to have to chime in here on the side of Beachdogz with this incident. In a perfect world this type thing would never happen. BUt we all know it's the suprises in life that keep us on our toes.

 

I don't know about prozax and other drugs for this type behavior or other things but I do know I have several dogs that don't like strange dogs at all. Yes they might act like they could play for a minute then the new dog does some small thing that offends my dogs and wham they go correcting the new dog. Not good but not the end of the world either.

 

So to keep things like this from happening I don't really have my dogs "play" with any other dogs. They are fine in the pack that they live in. There are a few scrapes within the pack sometimes but usually not blood. So we deal with it day by day. I've done all kinds of things to make Mick less reactive to other dogs. It works to a degree. Kinda like Laurae states, a dog in recovery but I'd probably call it a dog in control of himself but he's always on the egde of falling off the control part so It's my job to keep things safe. NOw if I'm at a trial or a friends house where there are dogs they all know or it's bc's that know how to act, we let them all off lead. Mick and Ray choose to keep seprate from the other dogs. Good. Fine with me. I look at them like they are crabby old dogs and they don't like little young rambunctious dogs in their face. I think that's fine. I'd love them to be all friendly but they are not. Will never be and I don't lose any sleep over it.

 

Keep trying MBC you might get it totally controled but as long as no one was seriously hurt I wouldn't worry to much. Your worry will keep him worried but I"m sure you know that. ONe thing I might add is I think it might have been a mistake to have you take the other dogs lead. Dog's off lead act totally different than dogs on. You were handicapping the other dog. Plus I agree I bet your dog was guarding his space around you. If they had both been off lead the other dog might have been able to give correct body language or just dodge your dog. Then again it could have upped the interaction but you were right there to get a handle on things quickly.

 

OMT I understand it was the other womans idea to take her dog to the vet and in your place what could you do, I'd have offered to pay too, but I swear a little bite on the nose would not have sent me to the vet and from experience it would have probably been fine. If you guys remember last year Dew got in a fight with a chain saw, she lost and so did her nose (I was out of town and DH was in charge incase anyone thinks I let my dogs play with chainsaws). She did go on antibiotics but I really don't think she needed them, she kept it clean by licking it. And this was no little nip! But then again last night at dinner my son was telling me I never used to take him to the doc unless his arm was falling off or he had a fever over 102 for more than a few days. He's probably right, I'm just not a doc kinda person so unless we have a really big reason we don't go.

 

Kristen

[Root Beer]

I want to respond to this because I knew it would be taken out of context. I almost took it out of there when writing it, but I wanted to get input on it.

 

No, I did not take you out of context. I did take what you said literally. Your clarification below is quite different from your original statement: Has anybody out there thought that the reason our doggies have to be on prozac and ridilin is because WE are making them neurotic by expecting them to be human?

 

Your original statement did imply that emotional and mental problems in dogs are caused by the owner's expectations of the dog. In this case, an expectation to be human.

 

With that I vehemently disagree! But if that's not what you meant, then I beg pardon for misunderstanding what you were saying and there is no disagreement in that regard.

 

While I am not denying that there are dogs that are in need of treatment, I am finding more and more in our area that these things are being prescribed for what I cannot believe to be true "anxieties".

 

OK, let me ask you something. Say you saw a dog weekly at a training class and for the most part the dog seemed normal - loving, friendly, interested in what is going on, at ease with dogs and people alike. But every now and then the dog seemed to be spooked by something and began to exhibit avoidance behaviors.

 

Based on what I describe, would you qualify this as a true "anxiety" that merits medication?

[Shetlander]

OMT I understand it was the other womans idea to take her dog to the vet and in your place what could you do, I'd have offered to pay too, but I swear a little bite on the nose would not have sent me to the vet and from experience it would have probably been fine.

 

I tend to err on the side of caution with these things. Years ago, one of my dogs had a small puncture. I cleaned it out, put antibiotic ointment on it, kept an eye on it. All seemed fine. Then he spiked a fever, began shaking and screamed if you touched anywhere near the small puncture. It had abscessed. An emergency trip to the vet, cleaning it out, some antibiotics later and he was very quickly back to normal. But it was unnecessary suffering and I no longer take a true puncture lightly while a cut or scrape, I will clean and monitor. Just my experience and approach.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

They are all right Mary, it's just a minor set back. I haven't been here long enough to know your whole journey with Buddy, but I know he's come along way, and it couldn't have happened without you. Everyone has set backs and you shouldn't beat yourself up over it. We recently had a problem too that got me very disouraged, but I smartened up once I thought about it for a while. We were on holidays and we drove to Ontario from Alberta, so Daisy had been in the car for two days. She took it in stride, but she was a bit stressed. When we got to our cabin I left her in the car while we all said our "Hello's" and figured out where we were sleeping. I then proceeded to tell all my relatives that Daisy is leary of new people and it would be in everyone's best interest to just ignore her, don't look/stare at her and DEFINATELY do not shove your hand out to pet her over the head, if she can come to you on her own terms, she usually makes friends pretty quickly. My bf and Daisy were outside waiting for me, it was dark and one of my cousins came tearing around the corner, ran up the steps and proceeded to shove his hand in her face, he got snapped at. He scared the living daylights out of her and vice versa too I'm sure! I felt horrible for about an hour, but then I got over it. He heard what I had said not an hour earlier, he's 15 and quite old enough to be responsible for his own actions. When he tried to give me attitude about it, I asked him if he thought I was joking when I said she was scared of strangers. I wouldn't have said it if there wasn't a reason for it. So, we all have little set backs, but we get over them and move one. Buddy wouldn't be where he is today if it wasn't for you, so keep on keepin on!

 

julie

[JohnLloydJones]

Has anybody out there thought that the reason our doggies have to be on prozac and ridilin is because WE are making them neurotic by expecting them to be human?

 

I can only speak for myself, but none of us (two legged and four legged) are on Prozac or anything remotely like it. Nor do I expect my dog to anything else than what she is; a dog.

 

Like it or no, she has to live in the world that surrounds her -- which is made by and for humans. She has to cope with that world and part of it is the ability to meet and socialize (at least in minimal terms) with other people and dogs. When she fails to meet those expectations, I need to work on those issues to ensure that she can continue to live safely and happily with me. That is my commitment to her as guardian and leader; it is also required of my by law as a condition of the license the county issues to keep her.

[bcnewe2]

He heard what I had said not an hour earlier, he's 15 and quite old enough to be responsible for his own actions

 

There's the problem!! 15 year old boys do things that we will never understand. Like dogs, I'm always on the look out for the going over the edge with my 16 year old son!

 

Yes Liz, you are probably right but I'm just not a jump to the vet or doc right away unless somethings hanging off. It's bit me in the butt a couple times but also saved me countless amounts of cash when a vet or doc visit is not really needed. I think it came from not having insurance when the kids were young and then doing all my own vetting with the sheep has taught me allot. If I think antibiotics are needed I have a great relationship with my vet and can call and just go pick them up. Now for the kids, I was one of the good ones and didn't over use antibiotics so penicillin or amoxicillin still works great if someone around here ends up with a sinus or ear infection that needs antibio's. My sister on the other hand can no longer use reg. anitbio's. she is always using them when I think she really shouldn't be. So the normal ones are no longer working for her.

 

If someone gets an owwie around here I use antibacterial soap for days and some antibiotic ointment. That seems to do it.

 

We also rarely get sick around here. I attribute that to not having a real job or doing things that get me out in the public very often. I haven't been sick enough to need med's in about 5 years. The last time I needed them was from a cold that turned into a sinus infec. But that's about all we ever get around here.

 

I still say....Buddy is doing great, and one little set back is no big deal unless you make it one!

 

K~

 

K~

[Ooky]

Beachdogz, I'm not saying I disagree with you, I just guess I fail to see what this viewpoint has to do with what happened in this situation. While people who want their dog to meet every dog *are* annoying (I've been in class with those types too), isn't there some sort of responsibility for an owner to take a dog out in public places where you could reasonably predict other dogs to be present to not be overly dangerous? Or if they are, to be very clear to other owners that they need to get and stay away? I'm not saying Buddy is dangerous after all the hard work mbc has put in, BTW. If that situation had happened to my dog, I would be shaken up, but not too upset, especially if it closed up while we were standing there. I just didn't read anything in either of mbc's posts that made me think this woman was the type of idiots I've met that let their 150 lb dog pounce on your 30 lb dog and then ask, "Oh, does he not like other dogs?" in a semi-accusatory manner when your dog reacts.

 

I have an overly friendly dog right now. I say right now b/c I think its just a phase - he's 6 months old and very happy to be alive. He got over an early fear of dogs and can't wait to meet every one we see now - went from terrified to social butterfly in 3 months. (He also wants to meet people, kids, etc.) I know not everyone wants to meet him, and try to never approach anyone who does not approach us. But when someone does approach us, I have to be very vigilant to make sure he doesn't overwhelm/jump on/lick said dog/child/person/old guy with cane.

 

More than once, a new dog has corrected Odin (with a snap/nip on the face) for his out of control desire to submissively lick their chops like a maniac for 30 sec or so. I think it qualifies as "getting in their face". MBC, much of what I attempt to keep in mind in these situations comes from the threads about you and Buddy I've followed. It's funny, I think of Buddy pretty much every time an older dog responds to Odin with signals even I can read but that Odin is apparently too bonkers to respect right now. I have always apologized when he's rushed someone too much and often am the one trying to keep Odin apart while the other owner encourages me to let them meet. I wonder if some of them don't think I'm crazy overprotective or "making him neurotic". I have one guy I know whose dog I trust and he is very easy going about letting her tell Odin in dog language when enough is enough. She makes exaggerated "leave me alone" signals, including snaps, and rewards him with calm play bows when he acts like a halfway chill being. So we are working on it. It is not the same as working with a fear reactive dog, but it is one of the most difficult things I'm trying to teach him right now, b/c he just sort of loses his mind with happiness to meet everyone, which isn't conducive to focus or training.

 

I guess I just think that if you choose to take your dog to public places with other dogs, its at least halfway up to you, whether your dog wants to meet everyone or no one, to moderate these types of interactions, which are bound to occur. If you know your dog hates other dogs and can't be trusted not to actually really hurt another dog or person, no matter how annoying that other dog or person is, then you keep that dog at home. If you really think these interactions are making your dog worse, rather than being desensitization or training opportunities, then you keep your dog at home. mbc is to be commended for the work she does with Buddy, who by all accounts I've read is generally fine in public and has made great strides. That doesn't necessarily mean the rest of us with hyper friendly puppies are automatically jerks making our dogs neurotic by treating them like humans. Beachdogz probably wasn't saying this, exactly, but I just wanted to respond from the other side.

[Shetlander]

I'm just not a jump to the vet or doc right away unless somethings hanging off. It's bit me in the butt a couple times but also saved me countless amounts of cash when a vet or doc visit is not really needed. I think it came from not having insurance when the kids were young and then doing all my own vetting with the sheep has taught me allot. If I think antibiotics are needed I have a great relationship with my vet and can call and just go pick them up.

 

I had a vet like that a long time ago, but the current one wouldn't go that approach. I think there is value in both approaches and we need to do what is comfortable and seems to work for us.

 

Of course, I am currently undergoing a big change in how I approach wellness/vet care, taking a more holistic approach under the guidance of a holistic vet. Quinn just had a small bout of very bad diarrhea after 9 months of doing great. Fasting, then vegetable broth, oatmeal and slippery elm and things were looking very good this morning. Tonight we should be going back to regular home-made diet, fingers crossed. If all is well, this will be the first time in years that a true GI upset didn't signal a serious underlying issue (IBD) or the dog nearly dying (some mystery illness the Lhasa had last September). What a nice switch!

[Ooky]

Now for the kids, I was one of the good ones and didn't over use antibiotics so penicillin or amoxicillin still works great if someone around here ends up with a sinus or ear infection that needs antibio's. My sister on the other hand can no longer use reg. anitbio's. she is always using them when I think she really shouldn't be. So the normal ones are no longer working for her.

 

If someone gets an owwie around here I use antibacterial soap for days and some antibiotic ointment. That seems to do it.

 

We also rarely get sick around here. I attribute that to not having a real job or doing things that get me out in the public very often. I haven't been sick enough to need med's in about 5 years. The last time I needed them was from a cold that turned into a sinus infec. But that's about all we ever get around here.

 

Kristen, I couldn't agree more. I had a doctor when I was growing up that prescribed me "prophylactic" antibiotics every time I got a cold because of my severe asthma and allergies. As a result, I got a cold every 6 weeks on average, and they usually turned into sinus infections that needed even more antibios. I took intro bio at 17, learned about my immune system, and told my mom I was never going back to that guy. Now, I haven't taken antibiotics in 6 yrs, and that was for tonsilitis (I responded well to the meds and kept my tonsils). I get colds about once, maybe twice a year. I think the strength of your own immune system has more to do with whether you get sick than anything else, and from what I've read and experienced personally, constant use of antibios leaves you totally at risk to all sorts of infections.

 

I also don't worry about minor scrapes, and will and have sought dr or vet attention for an infection from a minor bite or scratch only when I see signs of infection, not before. Sorry, off topic, but I just agree!

 

I still say....Buddy is doing great, and one little set back is no big deal unless you make it one!

hear, hear!

[BustopherJones]

15 year old boys do things that we will never understand.

I hate to tell you this, but as a parent who has raised two boys to adulthood, I can testify that it doesn't change much as they get older. And I'm sure DW would probably tell you (based on her experiences with me) that even senior citizenship does not alter the dynamic significantly...

[sweet_ceana]

Like it or no, she has to live in the world that surrounds her -- which is made by and for humans. She has to cope with that world and part of it is the ability to meet and socialize (at least in minimal terms) with other people and dogs. When she fails to meet those expectations, I need to work on those issues to ensure that she can continue to live safely and happily with me. That is my commitment to her as guardian and leader; it is also required of my by law as a condition of the license the county issues to keep her.

 

Very nicely said, my thoughts exactly.

[beachdogz]

OK, let me ask you something. Say you saw a dog weekly at a training class and for the most part the dog seemed normal - loving, friendly, interested in what is going on, at ease with dogs and people alike. But every now and then the dog seemed to be spooked by something and began to exhibit avoidance behaviors.

 

Based on what I describe, would you qualify this as a true "anxiety" that merits medication?

 

Just my opinion now: if I saw a dog weekly at a class that started to exhibit avoidance behaviors, just on what you described, would I qualify this a a true "anxiety" that merits medication???

 

First of all, I would never even attempt to decide if someone's dog meritted medication. As a trainer, I would imagine it could be a number of things (i.e. something has happened to it behavior-wise that caused it to act that way; something was physically wrong with the dog; perhaps it developed anxiety; maybe it has just started to exhibit a "mental" problem, etc. etc.) Problem is I don't live with the dog and I don't know how the person lives with their dog. I don't know what has happened at home or at other places. If it were in my class as an instructor, I would speak with the person and first and foremost recommend a visit to the vet to rule out physical problems. Gosh, we don't really know enough about human psychiatry and medication - and people can talk and tell you what's bothering them - let alone animals.

 

My point was that the two examples I gave were actually people I know who have gone that route...and I question how frequently it is being diagnosed and given out. When you talk about most of the people on this board and medication - well, we're all more experienced in dog behavior and so if we decide that meds are something worth trying, I'm sure that means we have exhausted other avenues and feel that one is the best. That's a lot different than the average dog owner who is just upset that their dog whines when they leave the house, and think that prozac for dogs is a cool thing.

 

 

To answer OOky's reponse (I still have a hard time inserting quotes), yes, this all probably didn't necessarily belong in this post. But when I read that the dogs interracted, well, that brought the situation to mind that there is so much pressure to socialize dogs anymore (and then I just went on and on, sorry about that...I tend to do that!) Maybe not hardcore pressure, but it's like sometimes you're made to feel like you're wrong because you don't want your dogs to play with strange dogs. I allow my dog to nose/greet other dogs; it's not a big deal. I'm just not into letting them play when they don't know each other. I've seen too many dogs in play groups injured from dog fights. And I've seen many a happy encounter turn bad in a moment's notice.

 

My last paragraph maybe should have been my only reponse to this post. I just feel mbc shoudn't beat herself up over the incident; she has acknowledged that she has done a lot work to help her dog overcome this type of personality - as dog owners, that's all we can do. Dogs are dogs...and some dogs don't like others. But then, perhaps I oversimplify everything.

 

So I apologize to everyone for going soooo off track on 3 different subjects: Socializing, humanizing dogs, and the given incident. However, I always find reading everyone's opinions on those things fascinating. It's one of the best ways to educate yourself. So thanks for letting me go off the subject...and sorry about that.

[Root Beer]

Just my opinion now: if I saw a dog weekly at a class that started to exhibit avoidance behaviors, just on what you described, would I qualify this a a true "anxiety" that merits medication???

 

First of all, I would never even attempt to decide if someone's dog meritted medication. As a trainer, I would imagine it could be a number of things (i.e. something has happened to it behavior-wise that caused it to act that way; something was physically wrong with the dog; perhaps it developed anxiety; maybe it has just started to exhibit a "mental" problem, etc. etc.) Problem is I don't live with the dog and I don't know how the person lives with their dog. I don't know what has happened at home or at other places. If it were in my class as an instructor, I would speak with the person and first and foremost recommend a visit to the vet to rule out physical problems. Gosh, we don't really know enough about human psychiatry and medication - and people can talk and tell you what's bothering them - let alone animals.

 

And that was exactly the point that I wanted to make. Saved myself some typing there!!

 

The dog I described has noise phobia which started to morph into generalized anxiety. After trying various training protocols and watching him suffer for too long, I made the tough decision to get him medication. It has done him so much good that most people who know him don't have any clue of the extent to which he was affected in the first place.

 

Yes, medication where it is not warranted is a real problem - in humans and animals. On a case by case basis, though, you really never do know unless you live with the dog.

 

So I apologize to everyone for going soooo off track on 3 different subjects: Socializing, humanizing dogs, and the given incident. However, I always find reading everyone's opinions on those things fascinating. It's one of the best ways to educate yourself. So thanks for letting me go off the subject...and sorry about that.

 

It was a good tangent, I think.

 

P.S. To insert the quote thingies, type [ quote ] before the text you want to quote, but take out the spaces that I have there and then type [ /quote ] (again take out the spaces) at the end of the text.

[beachdogz]

The dog I described has noise phobia which started to morph into generalized anxiety. After trying various training protocols and watching him suffer for too long, I made the tough decision to get him medication.

 

See...that is my whole point of this board. You learn so much. I would love to read his story - is it posted here somewhere, and if so, can you tell me where? If not, it would be wonderful if you did and we could all learn from your experience.

thanks.