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Calling through sheep


zenotri
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We are taking lessons regularly at the moment & both my dogs are looking good & the 3 of us are improving all the time.

 

One of the issue I still have with my 4YO bitch is that the only way I can call her off the sheep is to step right off to the side & tell her that'll do. We had a great session yesterday & she didn't put a foot wrong until right at the end when I called her off. She calls off easily providing there is a straight line between me & her, but with the sheep in between, she will either not let go with her eye, continue to flank or occasionally dive in. She is generally not sticky, other than in this situation or if I let her come in too close.

 

She is pretty intense & has quite a bit of strength, but is comfortable going between sheep & the fence calmly & has nice pace both fetching & driving. She has always had a natural tendancy to slice her flanks but we seem to be on top of it now & will take a get out if I need to give it.

 

My trainer thinks she is pretty close to being ready to trial, but until we get over this issue, I don't think we can consider it.

 

OTOH, my 2YO will call off anywhere, anytime. Sometimes I think it would be perfect if I could combine the strengths of the 2 of them.

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I don't understand why this is even an issue unless calling your dog off and having it come through the sheep without working them is part of the competitions you'd like to participate in. In other words, why do this unless you have to ?

 

Ray

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I don't understand why this is even an issue unless calling your dog off and having it come through the sheep without working them is part of the competitions you'd like to participate in. In other words, why do this unless you have to ?

 

Ray

 

When you are shedding you have to call your dog through...so it is a skill that may be required at other levels.

 

This is quite a normal problem with a dog that i call having CONTROL lssues. It really just takes a lot of practice; if he calls off while you are on the same side of the sheep, slowly move yourself and call him off; Work with him in the field just walking with you and not working sheep; Being mannerly and working when told is a good skill. It'll come, just keep at it.

 

cynthia

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I agree with Ray. I don't see this as a "problem" at this point in your training. I see this as you not communicating properly to the dog what you want, and confusing him.

 

You set the dog up as it if were fetching sheep to you, then you tell it "that'll do". The dog is still covering the sheep. So you insist and the dog busts into the sheep because it can't figure out what else to do.

 

Keep working on doing it the way you have been. Lay the dog down, step around the sheep. Call the dog off. Work on that until you can call him off 100% of the time from any distance as long as the sheep are not between you and the dog. Then work on flanking him over a bit before calling him off and do that until he's 100%. Eventually, he'll get to the point where you can call him off from behind sheep but I'd work on it gradually.

 

I see shedding as a totally separate issue. There, you aren't calling the dog off at all. When teaching the shed, you are teaching the dog that it is OK to let one group of sheep go while holding another group of sheep. It's tough for a young dog to learn because until then you are teaching the dog to always keep the sheep together, but you aren't calling the dog off sheep. That's why most handlers will use something like "That'll do" to end a work session and "Here, these" to call a dog in on the shed. One is ending the work. The other is focussing the work on a specific group and ignoring others.

 

Pearse

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I don't understand why this is even an issue unless calling your dog off and having it come through the sheep without working them is part of the competitions you'd like to participate in. In other words, why do this unless you have to ?

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't want her to come through the sheep, I want her to come off the sheep.

A classic situation where this is a problem is if I am taking a mob of sheep up to a gate & letting a few through. She is on the other side of the mob & I need to call her off to me so we can take those few somewhere. Right now, the only way I can do this is to either go back to her, or to flank her around to me & then call her off.

 

It's a issue because it is. I'm sorry if it was a stupid question. It does not seem to be an issue for most of the dogs I see, my other bitch included. As a hole in our training, it is bound to cause problems b/c the reason she does it, will I am sure manifest itself in other ways. Cynthia & Pearse are right, it is a control issue and by asking for it now I am setting her up for failure. She does call off very willingly so long as the sheep are not between us, from any distance. We will keep working at it & I will give a small flank first & then call her.

 

Thank you for replying.

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I'll spare you of my recounting stories of what I consider very good dogs who do or would do as you describe your dog doing and suggest that it's probably due to your dog being more of a direct sort of dog. As in, likes to work in straight direct lines rather than curves.

 

If I call a dog off, I expect the dog to come straight to me. If there's a bunch of sheep between us, as is often the case when gate sorting and such, I always use "away here" or "comebye here" which they learn to like taking because I normally want them to do something with the sheep on the other side of the gate. But I never call them off in such situations without flanking them around the sheep first.

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Good point Denise; thanks. We had the same problem the other day. My girl gets the sheep from the big pasture and brings them to the round pen to work with the other dogs and her. The sheep were going out of the gate with her in hot pursuit. Next time I'll try the flank commands and see if that works. Putting the sheep back we tried one at a time. Worked much better than all at once with sheep splitting and running all over the yard. They aren't fully dog broke which isn't a good idea but that is all we have to work with for now. Getting better every day though. Narita

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Here is my two cents worth. When we are working groups of sheep, sorting or whatever.

(The situation this time of year for me is peeling off the rams and goats from the ewes to take the ewes off to browse loose or trail them to high pasture. Then put them back together at night. It really helps if you have to do this twice a day. And the dogs trail the sheep a few miles in between.)

I have one command which means stop whatever you are doing and return to me. When dog has started towards me.....btw this may be at a distance or pretty close.... I might then say another command that means....that group there....or that sheep there is the one...bring it.

If the dog is young I might lie it down a moment between these commands.( Of course there are always errors! :rolleyes:)

Another thing that might be off the subject a bit is I have three separate commands for all three dogs. So that no one is confused. I might need to bring one dog on but have number two dog blocking a gate or whatever.

 

My dogs learn early to come through sheep if asked. Then I always let them work again after so they know they are not going to get stopped if they come in or through. And I mix it up with other work.

 

My dogs have taught me a couple of things.

Have a sense of humour,

Every day is different.

And of course that dog look of; What are you trying to tell me? Oh heck Boss I'm going to get that one!

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I do exactly as Denise does (away here, come bye here). Another reason is simply if we've been sorting at the gate, then the sheep are all crammed up there, I usually want the dog to come around and push them off the gate a bit before we go through to work the sheep on the other side.

 

J.

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I do as Julie does at the sort gate, although I just use a "that'll do." My girls seem to understand that since I don't seem to be making a hole for them to come through, the best thing is to flank around, push them off the gate, then we can exit. I let them decide which way to flank--it's all the same to me in that situation,

 

A

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You remind me of the fundamental training recommended by Derek Scrimgeour which can help with this: He teaches two recalls. "Here" means straight to me and hands and is useful as pre-shedding and shedding call. His "That'll Do" is a circular move to either side which is useful in flanking and would be exactly called for in the situation at the gate.

 

I am a good reader and video watcher - that doesn't mean I've got this down!!!! ;-)

 

Nancy

 

I do as Julie does at the sort gate, although I just use a "that'll do." My girls seem to understand that since I don't seem to be making a hole for them to come through, the best thing is to flank around, push them off the gate, then we can exit. I let them decide which way to flank--it's all the same to me in that situation,

 

A

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I'm suspecting that her desire to slice is causing the problem, the slice is an indication that she can not keep the proper distance from the sheep on her own, or does not understand it (hence the need for a manual Get Out), if she was honoring the pressure of the sheep correctly and committed herself to stop working and return to you she would opt to come to you in an around about way yielding to the bubble of the sheep as she comes, basically flanking around then to you so not to create more work or motion, some dogs can turn themselves off to the point where they can come straight to you without disturbing the sheep, though typically only possible on sheep that clearly recognize when the dog intends on making them do something or when to dog is just passing through. Also, if she has been getting in trouble for slicing, calling her to you through the sheep could be in her mind calling her into a slice which is just going to get her in trouble (did that make sense?). Also, when she tries to honor your that'll do she probably sets the sheep in motion which sends her back to work.

 

If my suspisions are right, unless you can go back and get her to automatically stay right on her flanks and not slice the best way to get her back to you probably is via the flank around into the clear and then call her to you. I tend to want to try to fix the flank removing the slice from it, or making sure I make the dog stop when she gets to that point where she is no longer flanking but begins slicing, then hold the dog to the higher standard of correcting her for not holding to a correct flank. If I can't get the dog to hold the right pressure on his/her own then I could revert back to Get in's or or Get out's to manually set the distance/pressure.

 

My dogs will recall to me from any place around the sheep in one of two ways, either they flank around the sheep on their own and then to me (typically to the direction of least pressure), or they turn themselves off to the point where they can walk right through the group and to me, usually the only time I see the second is when we are in a tight pen or in the barn where the pressure between the sheep and the wall is higher then quietly making a path through the middle. Riley is the one that is most apt to do that, if she does I just throw her a flank command which moves the sheep over giving her the path around as the one of least resistance. She is also ok with walking along behind me right through the flock and not offering to work until I give her a command to set her to work.

 

 

Deb

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