Dangerous Ground

[jdarling]

In another thread, Robin mentioned, "Make the ground dangerous," and "Put some pressure on the ground, not her (the dog)." I thought at one point that I understood what this meant, but I am not sure I know how to do this without putting pressure on the dog. I have heard other people use this phrase, and it may be that it's a method I've been taught but it's just not referred to as that, or I am just not understanding it (which wouldn't surprise me at all).

 

Does anyone have any video or can explain how to "make the ground dangerous" and the theory behind how it works ... especially the part about not putting pressure on the dog? To me, when you're making the ground dangerous say around the sheep, you're widening the sheep's bubble, and thereby putting pressure on the dog from the inside out ... no?

 

(Geez, I am feeling pretty thick. Sorry.)

[grenzehund]

I believe Derek Scrimgeour's latest DVD "Training Secrets of a Hill Shepherd" addresses "dangerous ground". And I'm sure a few board members will answer soon!

 

Susan

[Sue R]

Susan is right - Derek Scrimgeour's latest video, Training Secrets of a Hill Shepherd, seems to be largely based on this training method (and, from what I've read, that is what he covers as a significant part of his clinics). I am still trying to get my mind around the concept so I wouldn't dream of commenting on it.

[Shoofly]

What i've found best when doing lessons and trying to get folks to do this, is to explain it as putting pressure out in front of the dog so the dog sort of moves away from and around the pressure. Calling it "dangerous ground" just kind of keeps the person putting pressure on the ground between the sheep and the "pressure spot" (rather than on the dog) so you don't make the dog turn back and go the other way. I don't know if that makes any sense at all. Pretty much, you pick out the tight spot, say 10:00. Send the dog and start waving your stick at the 10:00 spot (way before the dog ever gets close to 10:00) and see if the dog won't give a little right about there to avoid the area you're making uncomfortable. Remove the pressure if he does.

 

The thing i like about this method is that your aim doesn't have to be as good as when you're pressuring the dog's shoulder - bad aim there just makes a dog go tighter and faster. So, when you're trying the dangerous ground thing, if your dog speeds up, pretend i'm standing there yelling "get out in front of the dog with the pressure!" because chances are you're not out in front.

[jdarling]

Send the dog and start waving your stick at the 10:00 spot (way before the dog ever gets close to 10:00) and see if the dog won't give a little right about there to avoid the area you're making uncomfortable. Remove the pressure if he does.

 

Thank you, Robin!!! That makes tons of sense! I'll try that!

 

And thanks Susan and Sue ... I will look into that video.

 

Jodi

[Shoofly]

Thank you, Robin!!! That makes tons of sense! I'll try that!

 

Just remember, if she speeds up, get the pressure out in front of her. If she stops or changes directions, lower the pressure towards the ground so she goes around the "dangerous ground" and you're not creating a "dangerous imaginary wall". She'll tell you if you're doing it right.

[jdarling]

Ok, thanks. I will try it and see if I can understand it out there. Sitting here, it makes sense. I'm sure I'll have a bazillion more questions.

 

J

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

"Dangerous imaginary wall" - rofl!

 

This works incredibly well. Robin was trying to show me this at about the same time that I saw a single incident at a clinic and suddenly it all fell in place. And about four months later I could sort of kind of actually put it into practice! (that's good for me).

 

It was at a Jack clinic and he was talking about someone's dog with the sheep waiting about 125 yards away. He was commenting about how the dog was struggling with a certain issue and sent the dog, turned his back on the dog to say another point, then said as he turned back to the dog, "And he'll do it right there" and he pointed to the ground a little ahead of where the dog was by this time.

 

The dog instantly bent out and went the rest of the way perfectly.

 

Jack shrugged and we giggled a little - but I remembered what we were talking about making ground dangerous. The distance and his intent made it really obvious that he was putting pressure on the ground not the dog and the dog responded beautifully.

 

It's not just "Jack magic" either. When I've got my head on straight, it helps a lot with dogs who get up tight about your getting in their way when they are working, even though your interfering will help them work better.

 

Wow, I think it's time to shut up when I start shifting the pronouns around like that. I can't even fix that last one without a complete re-write.

[jdarling]

Very interesting. I have a friend who did quite a bit of work with Kathy and she would talk about "making the ground dangerous," and now I know I had no idea what she was talking about all along. It's all making much more sense now.

 

J

[Shoofly]

I've always called it "no dog's land" or "don't enter this space". No dogs allowed! You just erect the sign before the dog gets there.

[bcnewe2]

Thank you guys....

I'm having a serious lightbulb moment here. Kinda feels like the V-8 commercial.

thank you

Kristen

[Sue R]

I've always called it "no dog's land" or "don't enter this space". No dogs allowed! You just erect the sign before the dog gets there.

This makes me think of something Jack had shown me several years ago and you, Robin, had reiterated in a post about Celt. He is such a header and such a non-driver (got it from his daddy, along with other issues) that I have to watch him closely or he will take off for the heads when he's supposed to be working the tails.

 

If I'm behind and can just say his name *at the right time* just before or as the idea is beginning to occur to him that he wants to fly out and go around to the heads, and before his body switches into gear, he calms down and stays where he should be (or moves back where he should be if he is already easing on out to the side where the temptation to rush around to the front will be strong).

 

If I'm in front somewhere, near or far, if I can just make a short step in the direction where he is going to do his head-them-off maneuver, and point my stick out to that spot in front of him, he will hesitate and get back where he should be. I never thought of that as a "dangerous ground" maneuver but I guess it is.

 

I am not saying that he shouldn't be able to work "alongside" the cattle (or other stock) if that's what the situation demands. But, for him, working alongside is often a disaster because the temptation to fly around to the front is much too great. If he is actually alongside because pressure demands it, that doesn't seem to be the same issue and doesn't result in his Lone Ranger ("Gotta head them off at the pass, Tonto!") routine.

 

I need to watch that video again. There is a great deal to absorb.

[hsnrs]

We have the same issues with our Aussie. He is doing better with the dangerous ground issue. He still tries to head them. When I call him off and ask for a stop or lie down, it is working. Trying to be patient with him as he has the potential to be a really nice dog if we can get the partnership idea through his head. And the patience issue in mine. N

[bcnewe2]

I was pleasantly suprised with Mick last night. I need to tweak myself as to when I start making the ground dangerous but I got exactly what I wanted from the dog. I think i made him a bit nervous to early as I sent him from quite a ways back and started making the ground dangerous a bit to soon so he actually went way to wide on the way to the dangerous gound part but that's gonna be easy to correct in myself.

Now with my green little dog it was a bit harder to try this method. We didn't have all the distance to start and I had to many sheep so when she got to that spot she really couldn't see me at all. We were using about 17 head, Mick needed a big group and she needed a smaller group, I just didn't sort them down cause it was getting dark.

Boy this weekend including Monday and Tuesday was really wonderful dog learning stuff. Maybe I should say handler learning stuff. I'm addicted all over again. Ya know when you have that kinda day when you feel so good coming off the field? I had like 5 in a row. That's not normal for me. We're growing!

 

Thanks again.

Kristen

[Janba]

I finally got the hang of "dangerous ground" in training today and the difference it made to my dog was incredible. He has always crept in a little in the stops and by making the area in front of him dangerous he stopped cleanly and held it. It also worked in making him keep a bit more distance off the sheep and it was so stress free. It was like winning the lottery.

[Bill Fosher]

I'm going to a clinic with Derek Scrimgeour next weekend, so I'll reserve judgment until afterward. But my initial take on this is that it's nothing more than making the wrong difficult, but rather than waiting until the dog is about to go wrong you make it difficult before he even gets there. I've been trying to do this for years, since my reflexes are so bad that if I don't anticipate a problem it's too late to fix it by the time it happens. My success is highly variable

[Sue R]

Thank you for putting it that way, Bill. That is very understandable. I also am a bit older and my reflexes are very slow. I am finding that if I am thinking ahead and getting the timing better, the results are much better.

 

One issue I have always had is poor timing and making corrections when it is too late for the dog to understand and trust the correction - in other words, my corrections are more given in desperation and simply rachet up the anxiety level of my dog, who is already an anxious soul.

 

I have noticed that, when I can be calm and quiet, giving corrections (making the wrong difficult and leaving the right to be easy) in a timely fashion so that they help rather than confuse or hinder, my results are much better.

 

I wish I could attend that clinic, even just to audit. I think there would be a great deal to learn. Sometimes, just hearing the same principles but taught in different words or viewpoints, is what one needs to hear to "get it".

[Bill Fosher]

It's not as simple as I thought it would be, and it's more complex than I dare try to explain in writing. I will say that I can screw it up just as well as any other training method that I've tried, but it the logic of it is impeccable and when you can do it right you will see results.

[Pippin's person]

I'm reviving this because it sort of started to make more sense to me reading the other thread about hard-mouthed dogs.

 

Question: when you're indicating the no-dogs-allowed-here part and you're waving or pointing the stick--are you also saying anything, like a proactive "hey"? And what about backing off the "stay back" zone on the fetch? do you walk through the sheep, swishing at the ground?

 

Ky was particularly pushy on the fetch yesterday and I wasn't at all good at giving him the information about "no dogs allowed here". He started kind of slice-y and we got that fixed, but he was still getting right up on the sheep and my corrections were clearly not effective (and the person we train with, bless her heart, couldn't get her corrections on me to work either )

[1sheepdoggal]

I had never experienced the Dangerous Ground concept, Id heard of it, but knew so little about it I never felt confident enough to utilize it until one day while training with Robin, the opportunity came on the feild with me and my dog for her to show me when and how to apply the technique, in that particular instance. Being a bit thick as Jodi said, I didnt think Id get it right off. But if you take the concept and apply it here and there, a little at a time without trying to "get" the whole thing all at once and try to apply it in some parts of training, I think one does get it much easier. Especially, if you are physically working with the dog at the time. To read, or hear it explained, left me thinking.....huh? But to actually use it and see it work so instantly and for the better, is pretty awesome. It really isnt as technical as it sounds, and for most dogs, Id say the understanding of the concept is almost instantanious if applied at the right time and place. I for one was made a believer of the Dangerous Ground application, and look forward to learning more about it, and when and where it is best siuted to utilize in the future.

[Shoofly]

Question: when you're indicating the no-dogs-allowed-here part and you're waving or pointing the stick--are you also saying anything, like a proactive "hey"?

 

It depends on the dog really. Sometimes i'll toss out a "back" or "out" to get an association going. Later on i might need to use a more direct pressure to really enforce what back or out means. Usually, with green dogs that haven't already acquired bad habits, i use the DG (=dangerous ground) technique to get a dog out to a space where it'll feel better to the dog anyway. Rather than letting the dog do the wrong thing and feel bad, i make the right thing (say, giving some space on a flank) the easier choice and the dogs usually like how that feels because they have more control over the sheep. And we know dogs are all about some control.

 

And what about backing off the "stay back" zone on the fetch? do you walk through the sheep, swishing at the ground?

 

Ky was particularly pushy on the fetch yesterday and I wasn't at all good at giving him the information about "no dogs allowed here". He started kind of slice-y and we got that fixed, but he was still getting right up on the sheep and my corrections were clearly not effective (and the person we train with, bless her heart, couldn't get her corrections on me to work either )

 

I don't tend to think of getting control of the fetch in DG terms, especially with younger dogs. I like to leave as much come-forward as i can get in a dog, so i tend to handle fetches with stops and steadies rather than a "stay back" zone. I know other people do it other ways, but that's my preference, especially since i like dogs with a little eye. I want my dogs to be happy to come into the bubble from behind, but flank cleanly.

[CLW1]

Carol Campion had Derek at her place last fall for about 3 weeks of clinics and lessons. It was amazing to see his methods work on both young dogs starting out and on more experienced dogs. I audited one of the clinics and then went and tried to use his methods on my dogs and I felt like a bumbling fool - then I took a lesson with him and it made much more sense. Once the dogs understood what I wanted they really relaxed into their flanks, especially the one that tried to do everything at warp speed.

 

Someone asked Derek about the word he uses when starting out with the whole dangerous ground thing (he says "now") and whether he carries that word through to advanced training and he said that he does because he can use it to remind the dog to flank properly, get the dog's attention, etc. It becomes sort of like a catch-all, you-better-pay-attention-to-me word.

[Sue R]

...he says "now"...

Particularly interesting in that Kathy Knox uses that word (the expression "there now") as her equivalent of "take time" or watch or slow your pace.

[Shoofly]

I use "now" with "time" or "steady" to extend the command out into a more soothing kind of sound. A hard "time!" should draw the dog up pretty hard. "Time now" in a softer sort of voice is more of a reminder to hold steady - you'll hear me use it especially on the return leg of the drive where i want the dog to be in charge of the sheep as he sees fit (and balancing and holding the line on his own) but also relaxing the sheep for the pen or shed. I also sometimes use "NOW YOU!!" as a correction. I think it's more about tone and timing and intent than the actual word, kind of like how you can use a dog's name about a dozen different ways.

[Caroline Reichard]

A few observations about "dangerous ground" (=DG) from Derek's last clinic. This is coming through my impressions, of course, so there may be errors.

 

There are a few differences from how Derek does the DG thing from how many others do it. For one thing, he does it while the dog is stopped. Imagine that your dog consistently slices his flank (hard to envision, I know, but bear with me).

 

Derek will stop the dog. He will walk calmly to the spot that he wants to make dangerous. (That spot is inside the arc of the imagined next flank that he will give the dog. It is a spot that, when avoided, will make the flank correct considering the dog's current flanking problem. It can take some education to see where this exact spot is.) Then he will bang his stick on that spot, stamp on it. Maybe spit, who knows????? It all depends upon how dangerous he needs to make it for that particlar dog. He will not look at the dog or make eye contact with the dog, though: this is very important, as it keeps direct pressure off the dog. After he has finished with his bit of dirt, he calmly returns to his original spot, which will be on the other side of the imaginary line between sheep and dog, to release the pressure totally as he gives the dog a flank command. (His body isn't inside the flank, pushing the dog out but is outside that arc, releasing the pressure.) He'll give the dog a flank command in a soft voice and let the dog decide what it wants to do. When done correctly, the dog decides to flank correctly and avoid the bit of ground that the Big Man stamped on.

 

Main things that differentiate this method from others include: lack of direct pressure on the dog by eye contact or physical proximity. A calm training situation in which one things happens after another. A dog that is stopped while the DG is "explained" to it. The DG process is not really a correction of behavior as it is occurring but a way to make certain that it doesn't occur in the future. Derek's DG technique doesn't punish a dog for a past bad flank; neither does it correct a flank that is in the process of going bad. It addresses the next flank. The dog gets a chance to think about the procedure before responding: it gets a choice.

 

I like Derek's flanking exercises because they are so calm and geometric. You can devlop a very keen eye for a good flank using it. It develops patience, calmness, and clarity in the training field. A challenge to the method, though, is that it requires a good stop and that if it is over-used, your dog can spend an awful lot of time stopped and idling while you look like a you are auditioning for Monty Python's Twit of the Year as you jump up and down on your training field and hit it with your stick, dog and sheep both eyeing you with disbelief.