Eating problems & Border Collies

[Dixie_Girl]

I have noticed that there are always topics that come up about how to feed, how much, and what to feed. So many times I read: my dog can't eat this and this, but does okay on this, my dog has diarhea again, I change my dogs food xxx so often, I would never feed this, or that. Prior to getting Cheyenne, any of my dogs got Purina dog chow. That was almost 12 yrs ago that I got her. Having got her when she was 10days old, well, no other way to say it, we spoilt her, she ate people food! The vet layed down the law and told me to get her on dog food! Well, after people food, dog food was way to yucky for her! We ended up getting her to eat Pedigree, mainly cuz I picked up at the place they make it quite often and they were always giving me free bags. I was just happy she was eating dog food! Then I got Jackson and was told he needed a high protein/fat ratio, more than what was in pedigree. So, I found Purina One, lamb and rice. So for the last three years all the dogs have been on that. All the fosters that come through also get that. I free feed and not one of the dogs have had a problem with fights or over eating. Even the fosters. Skip did have a problem when I first brought him home. He was one of the first pups to leave so after fighting brothers and sisters for food, he just gobbled as much as he could and promptly threw it up. That lasted two days, and he learned it is always there, and he has become a very "petite" eater. I never change dog foods, it's the same for them every day. Now, I do give them raw meat on occasion, and they do get the last bite or two of people food. They are all healthy and have healthy coats and good body weight.

 

I realize that feeding schedules seem to be mostly owners preference, but the other probs the dogs seem to have with food got me wondering, is it a case of bad breeding? Are the well bred, from working dogs, having the same probs? All the people that I know who work/trial their dogs and breed/buy same, have never had a problem with dogs alergic to food or other probs. Just wondering if it is indeed a breeding problem or a breed problem, and I've just been lucky.

[Shetlander]

I had this conversation with Quinn's holistic vet. The dogs we had 20 or 30 years ago ate some really crummy supermarket food (Gainesburger anyone?), no supplements (unless you count bacon grease, oil, or gravy) and got shots every year for as long as they lived. Yet our dogs live to reasonable old age (some probably lost a couple years due to weight related issues). No one every talked about their dogs having food allergies, autoimmune diseases or epilepsy. I never heard of dogs having dysplasia, OCD, knee problems, spine problems, etc. What the heck gives with so many dogs today? Other than back then our dogs often tended to be mixes or the result of casual breeding of "nice family dogs." Anyway, the vet said that while the food of yesteryear may have been cheap in some ways, it was food that came from closer to home, didn't have all the antibiotics, hormones, etc. you now find. So in some ways cheap dog food then was better than some of the costly, holistic brands out there today.

 

Same thing with immunization. Shots back then tended to be for only a few illnesses, not the host of diseases we can inoculate our dogs for nowadays. So there wasn't the same bombardment of dogs' immune system. Then there is the pollution and chemicals all around us (water, air, earth). She feels that many breeds in particular and dogs in general are not as hardy as they once were.

 

And of course none of that even touches on breeding practices out there.

 

Anyway, it all made sense to me.

 

Oh, and after the past 5 years of dog ownership, I would say you've been very lucky with your dogs' health!

[mbc1963]

I'd have a hard time believing that Gaines Burgers (RIP) were from closer to home than my dog food - or that they had fewer harmful fillers and hormones, etc.. Those things were DISGUSTING! My first dog lived on Gaines Burgers and died at 7 of cancer.

 

Hard to say what causes all the food allergies, etc.. There certainly are more in human populations, too.

 

Mary

[Shetlander]

I'd have a hard time believing that Gaines Burgers (RIP) were from closer to home than my dog food - or that they had fewer harmful fillers and hormones, etc.. Those things were DISGUSTING! My first dog lived on Gaines Burgers and died at 7 of cancer.

 

My Gaines Burgers dog was between 13 and 14 when he died and I'm sure if we hadn't allowed him to become obese, he would have had another couple of years. I agree that semi-moist stuff was the worst kind of food but the only type our dog would eat -- ironically the dog we didn't know any better than to allow to become so fat. He was our first dog and we were beyond ignorant though we all adored him.

 

I think the vet's point was food in the 70's wasn't imported from all over the world with god knows what in some of it. Maybe she's wrong. I'm not an expert on the food supply of the 70's though I remember my mother mentioning "starving children in China" at the dinner table. How many of us were surprised when the tainted dog food, much of it "Made in the USA," used wheat gluten from China? And that doesn't address all the other products from far flung places on the globe in our manufactured close to home dog food.

 

Check out name brand spices at the Grocery Store -- many are from China. The other day I wanted to buy some Orange Slices candy and the store no longer carried Brach's. I looked at the more generic offering and it was from Mexico.

[sweet_ceana]

I think the proposed question is a very interesting conodrum. The question of whether these things were there the entire time and no one noticed or talked about them verses the idea that these ailments are relatively new is relevent to dogs and people. I would imagine it was a combination of both.

 

Dogs are "valued higher" in society as a whole in more recent times. Many people refer to their pets as children and some find the idea of a pet much more appealing than a child. That said, I would imagine this would lead to more vet trips for peculiar things that may happen with their dogs. More vet trips, and the unlimited info from the internet, leads to more knowledge on what is normal and what is not.

 

On the other hand, if we consider the factor that increases allergies in people (there is no doubt allergies to things like peanuts are on the rise- increased cases of anaphalactic reactions are impossible to miss) could also increase allergies in dogs, than maybe that x factor is influencing our enviornment.

 

I think it would be interesting to hear a vet's opinion. They are the ones who see all of the ailments, and they would be the ones to actually notice a change. Any thoughts on the topic out there?

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I think some of it has to do with bad breeding...I know of two rotwieller/pit crosses that have the worst allergies to almost everything! BUT I also think that even 15 years ago a lot more dogs were just "taken out back" and dealt with if they seemed sick or failed at their jobs, entire litters would be, well you know, if they seemed sickly. Today, we will save anything if we can and as sweet_ceana said, we do take a lot more care with our pets especially those of us without kids, they fill the gap, so we are constantly trying to keep them as healthy and with all this info at our fingertips, I am surprised I haven't diagnosed myself with some sort of illness yet. LOL!

 

Another interesting point might just be their diet. I am reading a book called "The Omnivore's Dilemma" and it pretty much says that the further they take our food from it's natural state, the worse it is for us. So for example, yes, apples and oranges are good for us and we know that Vitamin C is good for us, but what if mixing it with something that doesn't naturally have Vitamin C in it is bad for us. What if there is something in that orange that interacts with the vitamin c that makes it do what it has to do and without that extra element vitamin c is actually causing us to be obese and diabetic. (That is just an example of what the book tries to explain, I am not saying Vitamin C causes diabetes!) So maybe the same goes for animals, what if the further their food source is taken from it's natural element, the more adverse effects it has, and that is what we are seeing now in allergies, hip problems etc. Just a thought.

[Shetlander]

I think some of it has to do with bad breeding...I know of two rotwieller/pit crosses that have the worst allergies to almost everything! BUT I also think that even 15 years ago a lot more dogs were just "taken out back" and dealt with if they seemed sick or failed at their jobs, entire litters would be, well you know, if they seemed sickly.

 

I have no doubt breeding is a good part of the problem. Look at all the breeds with high rates of certain diseases, including cancer that you see nowadays. And I don't doubt that dogs were culled and put down more easily in the past. So maybe that is why the dogs that made it to my family and my friends' family were hardier and you didn't see all the allergies, illness, unsoundness and temperament problems. We didn't put our dogs down if they got sick and our dogs didn't have jobs other than being companions. They tended to live a reasonable length of time without a whole lot of veterinary excitement.

 

Another interesting point might just be their diet. I am reading a book called "The Omnivore's Dilemma" and it pretty much says that the further they take our food from it's natural state, the worse it is for us.

 

That was what my holistic vet was saying. For Quinn who from early puppyhood through 2 1/2 years of age suffered repeated bombardment on his immune system, he really needs to keep away from processed food. The vet feels he is hypersensitive to everything in his environment. His IBD symptoms improved almost overnight after he was taken off all medications and put on home made food. He quickly went to no symptoms and has maintained this with no relapses for 10 months. I'm still at times astonished at the difference I see in him and my eyes have really been opened up to alternative approaches to veterinary care.

[bellabedazzeled]

I think some of it has to do with bad breeding...I know of two rotwieller/pit crosses that have the worst allergies to almost everything! BUT I also think that even 15 years ago a lot more dogs were just "taken out back" and dealt with if they seemed sick or failed at their jobs, entire litters would be, well you know, if they seemed sickly. Today, we will save anything if we can and as sweet_ceana said, we do take a lot more care with our pets especially those of us without kids, they fill the gap, so we are constantly trying to keep them as healthy and with all this info at our fingertips, I am surprised I haven't diagnosed myself with some sort of illness yet. LOL!

 

Another interesting point might just be their diet. I am reading a book called "The Omnivore's Dilemma" and it pretty much says that the further they take our food from it's natural state, the worse it is for us. So for example, yes, apples and oranges are good for us and we know that Vitamin C is good for us, but what if mixing it with something that doesn't naturally have Vitamin C in it is bad for us. What if there is something in that orange that interacts with the vitamin c that makes it do what it has to do and without that extra element vitamin c is actually causing us to be obese and diabetic. (That is just an example of what the book tries to explain, I am not saying Vitamin C causes diabetes!) So maybe the same goes for animals, what if the further their food source is taken from it's natural element, the more adverse effects it has, and that is what we are seeing now in allergies, hip problems etc. Just a thought.

 

Im curious about how many dog foods are causing diabetes? This is my concern with our new puppy Bella.

My dog Lacey came down with diabetes 2 years ago , and the vet says its from the food. So now Im confused as to what

to feed Bella. guess holistic is the answer for now. any one else have answers on this.

[Shetlander]

Im curious about how many dog foods are causing diabetes? This is my concern with our new puppy Bella.

My dog Lacey came down with diabetes 2 years ago , and the vet says its from the food. So now Im confused as to what

to feed Bella. guess holistic is the answer for now. any one else have answers on this.

 

I haven't heard that specific issue before. Did your vet explain how the food caused the diabetes? What food was it? I know increased weight can lead to diabetes. And once a person is diabetic or pre-diabetic, what kind of food they eat/how much of it is very important.

 

So obviously, I have no answers but I would address your concerns with your vet.

[border_collie_crazy]

I dunno, I cant say I really thought about it. I have dogs from a mix of backgrounds.

 

Electra(Toller) is from a versitility breeder who tested for everything under the sun, and she herself was DNA tested as a puppy, she has recueved a whole series of vaccines as a puppie and the breeder fed kibble. she then went to her co-owner who raised her to 6 months on raw, and switched her to her limited vaccine protocol...she then came to me where she eats raw and will not receive anymore vaccines. Electra can eat anything, she is very healthy, has a very healthy appitite, no allergies and nothing bothers her.

 

Happy(BC) is from a sport breeder, her parents were "proven" in flyball, and had there hips and eyes tested, dogs fed and raised on kirkland, and whole vaccine series followed and raised in the kitchen. Happy can hardly eat anything, corn is a big no no, and oatmeal is just as bad, Nutro caused her to throw up black sludge, and purina had her so sick we were giving her water through a dropper half the time. she doies very very well on raw, and does ok on most grain free kibbles.

 

Misty(BC) is from a cattle ranch, her parents were not tested, she is not registered, her dam is not registered(only because her owners chose not too though, she was registerable), dam worked cattle on the familys ranch, sire worked cattle on commercial ranch, the litter was bred for the sire's owner, he saw the dam working and liked what he saw, wanted some pups. puppies had 1 set of shots, were dewormed, and lived 50% inside and 50% in a kennel outside(it was december). Misty is very healthy with no allergies, and is capable of eating anything.

 

 

thats my experience anyway, so folks can draw their own conclusions based on their breeding lol

[beachdogz]

I find this to be a very interesting post....with lots of good and valid points all around. I have a private boarding kennel and have seen a lot of dogs on a lot of different foods. I have had boarders that have been fed Purina Dog Chow all their lives (not my cup of tea)...and were healthy with beautiful coats and lived long lives. Same with Ol' Roy (Walmart). Same with Dad's Dog Food...knew a very successful breeder of Springer Spaniels who swore by that dog food. I've seen dogs do well on "junk" dog food, and dogs that did horrible on premier, "healthy", hollistic dog food (as well as dogs that thrived on it.) I have had years of GSDs, and let me tell you, they have tricky digestive systems (along with worrying about bloat and toxic gut back in the 70's/80's). I've always told my clients to feed what works best for you and your dog. If the dog is thriving on one brand, why change it? The pet food industry is a very lucrative and profitable business. One of the news shows once did an expose on pet foods and found that pet foods are developed & marketed for people...cause that's who buys it. Whatever new food "gimmick" sounds good for their doggy...people/breeders/fanciers will buy it. I agree with the worry that foods are processed overseas...but I had a very bad situation with a dog food processed in the U.S. at one time. I'm sure there are those who disagree, but I still say if it works for you (and the dog)...then feed it. If it doesn't work, then you sure have a lot to pick and choose from.

[aljones]

My dog Lacey came down with diabetes 2 years ago , and the vet says its from the food. So now Im confused as to what to feed Bella. guess holistic is the answer for now. any one else have answers on this.

 

Although I know very little about canine diabetes, I am a member of a Yahoo! listserv for folks with diabetic pets. (I am lurking now but was active when I was trying to help a nearby shelter place a diabetic BC that the owner surrendered.) The list has some really knowledgeable members, including those with multiple diabetic pets and those with vet tech experience, and maintains an extensive website of resources. I find it a very educational and supportive community. If you haven't checked it out yet, I recommend joining and sharing your dogs' stories with the folks there for feedback.

 

Here's the link: Pet Diabetes Yahoo group.

[bellabedazzeled]

I haven't heard that specific issue before. Did your vet explain how the food caused the diabetes? What food was it? I know increased weight can lead to diabetes. And once a person is diabetic or pre-diabetic, what kind of food they eat/how much of it is very important.

 

So obviously, I have no answers but I would address your concerns with your vet.

Yes my vet says there's hidden sugars in the food, I was feeding her Iams chicken and rice . she died in June of diabetic complications.

Now I have a new puppy Border Collie and Im trying not to have the same thing happen again so Im switching her to the holistic brand for now.

[bellabedazzeled]

Although I know very little about canine diabetes, I am a member of a Yahoo! listserv for folks with diabetic pets. (I am lurking now but was active when I was trying to help a nearby shelter place a diabetic BC that the owner surrendered.) The list has some really knowledgeable members, including those with multiple diabetic pets and those with vet tech experience, and maintains an extensive website of resources. I find it a very educational and supportive community. If you haven't checked it out yet, I recommend joining and sharing your dogs' stories with the folks there for feedback.

 

Here's the link: Pet Diabetes Yahoo group.

Yes I did belong to this group for 2 years, she died just recently June 4 , 2008

Now I have a new pup, just making sure i don't make the same mistakes with her food.

[aljones]

Yes I did belong to this group for 2 years, she died just recently June 4 , 2008

Now I have a new pup, just making sure i don't make the same mistakes with her food.

 

Oh, I'm sorry that I misunderstood. My sympathies on the loss of your Lacey.

 

I don't remember reading anything (either on the list or in the other resources I investigated) about food contributing to canine diabetes. Maybe I just spaced out on those conversations, but did your vet give you any good references to support the idea that "hidden sugars" in the food caused Lacey's diabetes? I would be interested to know more about this possible connection, as well.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

Im curious about how many dog foods are causing diabetes? This is my concern with our new puppy Bella.

My dog Lacey came down with diabetes 2 years ago , and the vet says its from the food. So now Im confused as to what

to feed Bella. guess holistic is the answer for now. any one else have answers on this.

 

 

I just want to clarify that I wasn't saying that what we feed our dogs is making them diabetic, I was just using it as an example of what is happening in people. What they call "Western Diseases" (like heart disease and diabetes), I believe are strongly connected to the western diet, so perhaps there is something similar happening in canines.

[Root Beer]

Breeding could be a factor, but I wouldn't rule out things like ingredients in the foods themselves, effects of vaccinations, chemicals that the dogs encounter on their toys, in the home, and on lawns, the products we use on them for flea control, etc.

[RaisingRiver]

I have a dog with some issues above.

 

River was BYB (got her at 8wks) and just after a year old started having chronic diarrhea. She's almost 3 and has tried many things including diet changes (all but raw) plus bloodworked through vet etc. She still has it. I'm seriously considering dumbing down her food next bag to something from Petsmart instead of Merrick or its equivalents I've tried in past. She started on Blue Buffalo originally. Conversely, her littermate brother (who we just found/met this year) is perfectly healthy and has had ZERO health issues (he's neutered).

 

The other 2 BCs are both from shelters (Aero was from an indian reservation originally) so no background on them, but both are pretty fine with diet - though Aero gets runs from time to time (hopefully not a River repeat) - but he also had a lot of medical puppy issues - but he's been on same food since I got him at 8wks (Merrick kibble) so I don't think it's the food since it's not chronic.

 

My agility trainer has BCs and BC mixes, I think all are rescues and she feels them Old Roy or w/e it is a Costco their entire lives (some are teenagers) and they are all healthy and since she's never had problems she hasn't bothered to buy a better (or more expensive) food.

 

To Kristine's possible factors:

My lawn does get sprayed about once a year (but honestly I've skipped the last 3 years, so River wasn't even around), nothing is sprayed in the home, or for pest control outside and my dogs only get flea control if we're going on long trips with them since we don't have fleas here (so like once a year, maybe). And I'm pretty sure it isn't River's diet as the switching of food/ingredients hasn't had any marked progress.

[bellabedazzeled]

Oh, I'm sorry that I misunderstood. My sympathies on the loss of your Lacey.

 

I don't remember reading anything (either on the list or in the other resources I investigated) about food contributing to canine diabetes. Maybe I just spaced out on those conversations, but did your vet give you any good references to support the idea that "hidden sugars" in the food caused Lacey's diabetes? I would be interested to know more about this possible connection, as well.

I have know idea about the hidden sugars thats just what he said , btw we have a new vet now.

I also forgot to mention she was eating our cats food whenever she got a chance , that was a factor in

her getting sick as well.

[theshine]

My dogs have all had various digestive issues since I got them, I kinda assumed it was the food for a while and I have tried many foods, but I always found it odd, especially after I got Shiner, since they are two different breeds and none from the same breeder. My shelties had diarrhea off and on basically since the day they came home, about once every two weeks to two months, no pattern at all. They were treated for Giardia and gradually improved after that...the problems didn't stop right away, but now they're two years old and I hesitate to say it, but they haven't had any issues in several months. Then we got Shiner and he had diarrhea from the beginning too, worse than the shelties. After trying more different foods, they were all treated for Giardia again...this has just been in the last month, so I hope this stops the diarrhea for Shiner. As far as food goes, I settled on Purina One because it seemed to cause the least issues, but it isn't the type of food I want to be feeding. If this stops now, if it turns out to have been Giardia or even something they outgrow, I hope to be able to switch foods, but I'm afraid to mess with anything right now with the shelties doing so well.

[Root Beer]

To Kristine's possible factors:

My lawn does get sprayed about once a year (but honestly I've skipped the last 3 years, so River wasn't even around), nothing is sprayed in the home, or for pest control outside and my dogs only get flea control if we're going on long trips with them since we don't have fleas here (so like once a year, maybe). And I'm pretty sure it isn't River's diet as the switching of food/ingredients hasn't had any marked progress.

 

I'm not saying that would be the case for every dog, but in the overall scheme of things, it could be a piece of the puzzle for some dogs. I don't use any chemicals on my lawn, but I know that the dogs come into contact with them when we are out and about and there is really no way to know what they might have picked up and licked off at some point.

 

My bigger concern would probably be lawn chemicals that the dog encountered as a puppy while still developing, especially with chronic problems.

 

I'm certainly not saying "it's lawn chemicals", but I wouldn't be surprised if that were a component of the problem for some dogs. It's definitely something to take into account when looking at the possible reasons why certain dogs have digestive issues and others do not.