Why are some knowledgeable people involved with AKC/BCSA?

[Sue R]

First, and most important, I don't want this to become a mud-slinging, flaming debate. However, if I get any response from the people who I am wanting to understand, I am sure it will become an argument as others chime in with their opinions (which will probably be the very people I agree with).

 

Melanie's thread about sport-bred dogs has made me think again of this topic, which has been of interest to me for some time. This question is in regards to those who have working-bred Border Collies, respect and participate in USBCHA/ISDS-style trials and training, and who also chose to register their dogs with AKC, participate in AKC/BCSA herding events, and support AKC/BCSA Border Collie activities (herding in particular but perhaps also conformation and sports).

 

There are some people that I admire and respect otherwise who do chose to be involved with AKC/BCSA - as judges, participants, and/or supporters. What I am interested in is understanding why these folks become involved with AKC/BCSA, particularly in the "herding" program. I can understand why someone choses AKC/BCSA for conformation, obedience, agility, and other enjoyable or title-giving venues. I don't agree, but I can understand.

 

My thoughts are that there may be a variety of reasons, one or more of which may apply to any one person - but I'd really like to know what the people who chose to do this have as their reasons or rationale. My suppositions are:

 

1. Financial, where a person may judge in, train students for, handle dogs for, and/or sell pups/dogs to the AKC/BCSA community. This appears to often be more lucrative than being involved with the traditional working stockdog community. I'm not implying greed, but rather reality in making a living, which is what some folks are endeavoring to do as part of their involvement.

 

2. In an effort to maintain instinct and ability in the gene pool of the AKC-registered dogs by dual-registering their working-bred (often very nicely working-bred) dogs with AKC and selling pups to AKC buyers. And, maybe as part of this or periforally, to educate people in AKC/BCSA in terms of what "real" Border Collies are.

 

3. Because they don't feel that the AKC/BCSA promotion of "other" competitive venues for the Border Collie (conformation, obedience, agility, etc.) pose any threat to the future of the breed for any of a number of reasons. Some folks I know feel that, as long as farmers/ranchers/shepherds need working dogs, there will be good working dogs produced and the propagation of breed ring or performance sports dogs will have no effect on that.

 

4. Because some folks feel that you can breed for what you want (conformation, sports, etc.) and a "herding breed" dog will always have the attributes and instincts of its working-bred ancestors. Therefore, you can not lose those instincts and abilities. I must say that I adamantly disagree with this but I know people who are just as convinced of this as I am not.

 

5. Because AKC/BCSA (and also AHBA and ASCA) offer titles, which USBCHA does not. Whether the belief is that titles are valid, visible evidence of working abilities or ego-boosters is also of interest to me.

 

I personally can understand a couple of these reasons, and really disagree with the thinking involved with some of them as well. But what I really want to understand is why a person involved with and knowledgeable about working-bred Border Collies, chooses involvement with AKC/BCSA, and often to the point of being a real support to AKC/BCSA.

 

Anybody willing (and I wish we had an "anonymous" feature to posting here, because I don't want personal attacks of any sort) to don the asbestos suit and tell me your point of view? I will genuinely understand if no one is willing to stick their neck out on this one.

[Sue R]

I hit the wrong key and posted this before I finished with the poll.

 

The additional question I had intended to poll was "Is at least part of your participation in AKC/BCSA to benefit the Border Collie breed and in what way do you think you would accomplish that goal?".

 

The choices would have been:

 

To educate people in AKC/BCSA about the working Border Collie;

 

To maintain a good, working genepool in AKC-registered Border Collies;

 

To contribute to growing and improving programs centered around stockworking Border Collies in the AKC/BCSA;

 

Other.

[NCStarkey]

Hi Sue,

 

I think that you need a third category for those who choose not to participate in AKC/BCSA activities, and several sub categories for the reasons why. Make sense?

 

Regards,

nancy

[Laurae]

I know someone who successfully competes in USBCHA trials and AKC trials. I think she just likes to win, and at the AKC trials it's very easy for her to beat the pants off everyone else there. There's no way to really reason/argue with that.

[D Strickland]

I hit the wrong key and posted this before I finished with the poll.

 

The additional question I had intended to poll was "Is at least part of your participation in AKC/BCSA to benefit the Border Collie breed and in what way do you think you would accomplish that goal?".

 

The choices would have been:

 

To educate people in AKC/BCSA about the working Border Collie;

 

To maintain a good, working genepool in AKC-registered Border Collies;

 

To contribute to growing and improving programs centered around stockworking Border Collies in the AKC/BCSA;

 

Other.

 

 

My take on AKC/BCSA is this ... The AKC will never go away as long as they can make money from the Border Collie so why not help them !? I am aware that only a few AKC handlers want to change the herding standards to more closely conform to the USBCHA/ISDS way of doing things ... however the Board of Directors at the AKC are not looking to further the breed ... just their bank accounts.

 

So we can either fight the AKC .... and that hasn't worked in the past or we can outcast anyone or anything associated with the AKC which will only serve to shrink the numbers of new handlers we attract.

 

So after years of bashing the AKC I decided last fall to help them out. When someone shows-up with a Border Collie I show them that their dog can be so much more and I steer them towards USBCHA trials.

 

My fear is that Border Collie people start believing that AKC herding standards are accurate.

 

Conformation is only going to further ruin working Border Collies but as long as they keep their registry and ABCA keeps their own we'll be alright. The UK has been dealing with this for longer than we have and we are still importing dogs from over there.

 

I'm new at this and very much a "little hat" ...... just thought I"d share.

[NCStarkey]

Hi Laurae,

 

I know someone who successfully competes in USBCHA trials and AKC trials. I think she just likes to win, and at the AKC trials it's very easy for her to beat the pants off everyone else there. There's no way to really reason/argue with that.

 

I imagine that there are quite a few people who have the same motive for competing in the different venues (people who simply like to win). However, for me, the "prize" simply cannot justify my support of either organization. But, I learned a long time ago that I can not expect others to share my values, so I agree with you that there is no way to reason/argue with that person's values.

 

Regards,

nancy

[Sue R]

Nancy - I do understand your comment about another category. However, what I was looking for here was input from those who DO compete in, support, volunteer for, register with AKC. I've heard opinions from many people that won't have anything to do with AKC (and I agree with them) but what I am looking for is why some folks (who are good handlers, have good working-bred dogs, and so forth) choose to be involved with AKC.

 

I think there are some very fine people who are involved with AKC "herding" for different reasons, and I am curious to find out what they are and what their reasoning is. I'm not talking "hobby herders" but folks who have the skills and the dogs to also compete successfully in USBCHA-style trials and do real farm/ranch work.

 

Dave - I do think there are people involved with AKC/BCSA who are trying to make their "herding" standards worthwhile. I don't know if it is improving the AKC dog that's behind the creating of "new and improved" titles, or if it's simply another way to add another layer of letters after a dog's name, or further separate dogs (and handlers) that can do the work from the run-of-the-mill hobbyist.

 

It's curiousity, and not an attempt to raise an argument. I guess I am trying to find out "the other side's" point of view on this, while I don't expect to agree with it. We've heard "our" point of view many times.

 

My poll above was not complete when I hit the wrong button and posted it but it was aimed at those who do AKC/BCSA and not at those who don't. It was the only way I could see getting some feedback that could be anonymous.

[NCStarkey]

Hi Sue,

 

Nancy - I do understand your comment about another category. However, what I was looking for here was input from those who DO compete in, support, volunteer for, register with AKC. I've heard opinions from many people that won't have anything to do with AKC (and I agree with them) but what I am looking for is why some folks (who are good handlers, have good working-bred dogs, and so forth) choose to be involved with AKC.

 

I think there are some very fine people who are involved with AKC "herding" for different reasons, and I am curious to find out what they are and what their reasoning is. I'm not talking "hobby herders" but folks who have the skills and the dogs to also compete successfully in USBCHA-style trials and do real farm/ranch work.

 

Thanks for further explaining the reasons that you posted this topic, and I can certainly appreciate you trying to find out what motivates people to participate in AKC/BCSA events. It is a very interesting query!

 

Regards,

nancy

[Diana A]

I know of a couple other reasons, just looking at the people I know who do both. One, is the person started in AKC, then found their way to USBCHA, but it's hard letting go of old associations, especially if the person still has a lot of friends and acquaintances who do AKC. I do know of a few people who did both for a while and then phased out of AKC over time, but not quickly. Second, is the person has another breed of dog (sometimes a herding breed, sometimes not), and for most of those other breeds there is no other choice except AKC as far as registering the dog. So if one dog is AKC registered and goes to AKC events, then why not the border collies as well, might as well take them along too. Usually this is a person who also started in AKC. I can't think of anyone I know who started out with working border collies and then took up with AKC - it usually seems to go the other way.

[Sue R]

Thanks, Diana.

 

I see from the poll that while one person who participates does so apparently because their livelihood is involved, the second person does so because it's enjoyable for them and the dog. Of course, I have no way of knowing if both/either of these folks is an Open handler or real farm/ranch dog handler, which is the primary type of person I was aiming this at.

 

I know or know of several people who are Open handlers in USBCHA and also participate in one way or another with AKC/BCSA (and some also do the same with AHBA). They include those who judge for AKC/AHBA as well as USBCHA, who participate in both, who host trials for both, and who are mainstays for AKC/BCSA.

 

I do agree that some start with AKC. There are some handlers who may have AKC associations with other breeds, as well, and so are involved initially in that way. I believe there are also some that, while starting with USBCHA (maybe before AKC offered "herding"), have chosen to also participate there.

 

I'm just curious about how these people feel about the "great debate" and why they make the choice they make to be a part (sometimes a large part) of AKC/USBCHA.

[Flamincomet]

Well, I'm no Open handler, that's for sure, but I do participate in AKC events.

 

I show my border collie, Ghost in conformation, and hope to start doing agility and rally with him soon aswell. Maybe herding is in his future, maybe it isn't, he wasn't all too impressive at his first exposure, but I'm going to try again when he's about 2 years old and go from there. Ghost isn't a "typical" conformation BC, he is more a mix of all 3 "types." (Working, Sport and Conformation) Though I will openly admit he is far less working type.

Now I KNOW I'm going to get flamed for showing in conformation (I have in the past), but I really could care less. I show Ghost in order to gain experience in handling and grooming, and because we BOTH enjoy it. Ghost absolutely LOVES going to dog shows, especially being in the ring, as he thinks EVERYONE is paying attention to him, and that's what he likes best.

I don't have ANY plans to breed Ghost. I plan to neuter him as soon as I'm done showing him, and I have no plans to buy another BC for conformation.

I bought him in the first place, because I love the breed, and wanted to get involved in conformation handling, so it made sense to me. Now obviously, after doing my own research, I know that breeding for conformation ONLY is not what's best for the breed, but I still want to be involved in conformation.

I plan on getting into Salukis, to show and course them, and maybe eventually breed. They are a truly dual-purpose breed, and have some VERY dedicated breeders that are interested in only what's best for the breed. I look forward to working with them.

 

I got my other BC, Spirit, from the local shelter, and I am planning on ILPing her, so we can compete in rally, and MAYBE agility. (She is a very shy girl.) She was also recently exposed to stock (Goats) and showed some real potential, so depending on how that all turns out, we may start trialing. (USBCHA not AKC).

 

Sorry that's not exactly what you wanted, but that's why I'm involved with the AKC.

 

Autumn

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>Sorry that's not exactly what you wanted, but that's why I'm involved with the AKC.<<

 

I appreciate your honesty and willingness to post about it

 

Diane

[Sue R]

Autumn - As Diane said, thanks for the honesty (and willingness to stick your neck out to be honest). I posted this topic and my desire is that no one is criticized here on this thread for being honest.

 

Whether or not I agree with you or anyone else in this thread is not why I started it. It is to understand why people (people who are capable of trialing at Open or working dogs in a significant farm/ranch situation) choose also to be involved with AKC/BCSA.

 

From what I am seeing here, and from private email, if there are such people on this forum, they are probably not going to post here because the tone of the board is not in support of anything AKC. So, it seems to me that posting this topic was largely an effort in futility, although I have gotten some very interesting information and viewpoints that I was not aware of.

[Sue R]

I think this topic was doomed from the start. I'm sorry that I hit the wrong key and put up a poll that was not well thought out and ready to post, and therefore pretty meaningless. I'm also sorry that it is not a topic that the very people I was interested in hearing from would probably reply to in this forum, and I can understand that.

 

I think it generally boils down to making a living for some folks, getting titles and "having fun" for others, and/or not believing that AKC poses a threat to the Border Collie breed for others, or some combination of the above. Meanwhile, some folks who laugh at the conformation/show ring aspect of AKC, are still involved for reasons of their own, which may include hoping to educate and make a positive difference in how the Border Collie is viewed by the nation's largest registry and its affiliates.

[NCStarkey]

Hi Sue,

 

I'm sorry that this topic didn't generate the response that you had hoped for, but you are to be commended for your efforts. As I wrote previously, it is a very interesting query!

 

Regards to all,

nancy

[Cynthia P]

Sue,

 

I originally started herding in AKC with an austalian cattle dog. I still help out at the farm I started at by setting sheep for their AKC trials. I won't participate in one anymore (my dogs aren't AKC reg...so it is a mute point).

 

what i want people to see at the AKC trials is how well and quietly my dogs can work, how they affect the stock and give them something to strive for. ONe of the problems with AKC is that they do not allow competitors to do any "help" work, like setting or exhaust or even moving sheep to the set out area. So relatively good dogs that could hold out are usually competing. In order to hold sheep in B course you need a good dog (cause let me tell you, an outrun of 100 feet ....more or less...those sheep want to leave 'tout suite).

 

I help out, I am conflicted...but i hope people will see what can be done with a dog and strive to reach better training heights, not more titles.

 

I get asked all the time if my BC's are titled when I am there; I explain I don't run AKC trials, I run in USBCHA trials as i think it is a better gauge of their working ability. No one seems to be offended by me not participating in their chosen sport area...i hope they can see what a good working dog can do.

 

cynthia

[Sue R]

Thank you, Cynthia, for your open and honest reply. That's what I was looking for. That's very interesting that competitor dogs can not assist, and a reason for non-AKC or "outside" dogs and handlers to be asked to help. I know that non-AKC (even some very anti-AKC) folks do help with assisting at trials (and get paid for it, along with valuable work time for them and their dogs)

 

While I spent the last six years either taking puppy, family dog, or agility (for fun) classes with an AKC affilitate club, and the last several assisting at those same puppy and family dog classes, I also have felt a great deal of conflict over that association. I trained for several years with an AKC-active trainer (and I thank her very much for her help), I have different trainer now but AKC was not the reason for my change.

 

I never did attend any AKC events, and only would volunteer for USBCHA events there and elsewhere. I did go and support my friend who ran her AKC/ASCA Aussie in AHBA but drew the line at going if she was entering and AKC event. Just my own line in the sand, so to speak.

 

With a different work schedule, and the price of gas, I have finally decided to "retire" from helping at the AKC-affiliate. I have many wonderful, supportive friends there who do a great deal to benefit dogs in our local community (and that was why I was an assistant in the training classes). They will always be my friends but some of us have just had to agree to disagree, especially when it comes to Border Collies.

 

Thank you, also, Nancy, again for your support.

 

I also realized that this, being a big holiday (and also trialing) weekend, was probably not a good time for getting the kind of answers I wanted. Maybe there will be some posting later this week, if the topic remains current.

 

Also, I do appreciate those several people who have emailed or PM'd me with their thoughts. Thank you, also. It is a hot topic and the last thing I wanted was controversy or flaming - just understanding, whether we agree or not.

[Kyrasmom]

Hi Sue,

I think your poll and questions were very interesting and could potentially bridge the gap between many of the posters/lurkers on the board. I don't approve of the AKC but I do have three fluff-butts that came with registrations (as many know). When I got them, it was simply because that was the Border Collie my husband and I recognized, not so much because of dog shows or what not because we've never attended, but because the show bred BC was popular in Italy and that is where we hail from. We were coming off of the loss of two very special dogs and acted rather impulsively and chose breeders I still feel are responsible towards the dogs but have since realized are not necessarily responsible toward the breed. But none of this is part of the poll really, just basically an intro to the rest of my response in dealing with folks who do adopt from me or in the general dog circle I travel in.

 

A lot of people find AKC events to be more readily available and accessible in certain areas. It is also a recognizable "brand" which to many serves as a "guarantee of quality". We know it's not the case but working in rescue, priorities can be different. When I adopt dogs, I encourage people to look for dog clubs and puppy classes because my first priority is ownership longevity. So, if an owner chooses an AKC sponsored event in which to have fun with their dog, I don't give them a lecture. I want owners to have fun with dogs, to socialize them, to make them more than backyard pooches (even if for some that is a perfectly acceptable life). Obviously any dog I place is altered so I don't worry about future generations and in many cases these dogs are not purebred or even Border Collies so my post is pertaining to the participation in AKC events.

 

I hope you continue to get responses, I'm sure it's intimidating for many to admit to having dealings with the AKC in any form. Personally I don't participate in any of them (of either kind) but have no problem with those who do with their altered dogs. I've long since come to the conclusion that I will not buy another dog in my lifetime regardless of registry as there really are very few responsible breeders out there. And those have waiting lists.

 

Maria

[Sue R]

Good to hear from you, Maria, and thanks for your viewpoint. I particularly am struck by your comment,

 

...breeders I still feel are responsible towards the dogs but have since realized are not necessarily responsible toward the breed...

 

which I think is quite a topic for another day and another thread, but one to sincerely consider.

 

I wish I had done the poll better, and have been encouraged to do so. I realize now that doing it well would take a bit of time and I don't know if I'll have that in the next few days. But, I will think it over and see if I can improve it and maybe repost it in a new, improved topic. Maybe Eileen could help with that by allowing me to modify the existing one to make it better, clearer, and more inclusive.

[Root Beer]

I'm not in the category that you were aiming for responses from. As you all know, I am strictly a sport/pet Border Collie person. But maybe something will prove helpful - who knows?

 

Currently I am not doing any AKC activities, but I did do AKC Rally with Speedy. The main reason for that was because the rules in AKC Rally made it possible for us to be successful where APDT was very difficult for us as a team. We did both because that worked best for us. Quite frankly, I enjoyed going to the dog shows. They were fun days that I recall with a lot of joy. Speedy always had a blast walking through the show areas as I went shopping after our Rally runs.

 

I chose not to try to ILP my mutt to do AKC Agility because I didn't feel it was right to try to pass off a dog that I knew was a mutt as a purebred. Had I thought there were any real possibility that she was purebred, I would have felt differently, but as it was I did not see fit to do so.

 

I will have to decide in the future whether or not to ILP Dean and try AKC Agility with him. Why would I do that? There are three reasons, really. First, the people that I train with all do AKC Agility. A few do CPE and NADAC, but most do AKC. I'd love the chance to trial with my friends. The second is that I intend to continue to pursue a second career (on the side) as a dog trainer and AKC Agility titles are generally considered more of a "credential" than titles in the other venues. Personally, I don't feel that it should be that way, but it really is - at least in my area. Third, all venues of Agility are different from one another and I'd like to experience what AKC Agility is like. I am completely on the fence about it and it's not a decision I will need to make in the very near future, but if the time comes, I will seriously consider it.

 

At this time I have no plans to pursue herding, but in the back of my mind there is always a "maybe" for Dean. I would never be in the league of even the most novice of the novices in USBCHA, so AKC herding would appeal to me. The very fact that it is not the "real thing" makes it seem do-able to someone like me. But seriously, I would have to win the lottery if I were to have the time and money to even consider that, so right now sports really are my focus.

 

I realize that this point of view is not in conformity with the philosophy of the forum, so I do not normally discuss these things on board. I respect those who have no dealings whatsoever with the AKC and I do agree with some things. I would not, for instance, purchase another AKC registered Border Collie. For my future dogs I will either adopt (as I did with Dean) or try to seek out a working breeder who would sell to a sport home. I will never participate in Conformation and I will never breed a dog. But I do participate in a limited amount of AKC activities. I appreciate being able to discuss the reasons why in a thread where flaming and controversy are excluded.

[Bo Peep]

Here's my story- Long but true.

My first BC was not papered. I simply got her on a whim. My sis & brother in law had cattle dogs. He did roping, she did barrel racing. My neighbor had Aussie's. I lived on a farm and wanted a farm dog. Miss Lacey had NO INTERST in sheep. My neighbor showed her Aussie's in conformation in the Misc. category. She wanted to do obedience. So, I entered some classes and worked with Miss Lacey. We started going to functions, before the controversy and I ILP'd her.

I also did with my next couple dogs only to discover herding.

 

I stopped the obedience and went strictly to trialing in ABCHA trials. Nothing beat the training a dog could get over that. Once I was divorced and didn't have sheep anymore, I went back and finished some titles on the dogs that were already ILP'd. Miss Lacey ended up being UD MISS LACEY CDX JHD. The titles didn't mean much to me, the competition was fun.

 

I can't travel anymore and love to do obedience. Here, in Boise we only have one show a year and it IS AKC. Now, do I dual register- no way. Or do I neuter and ILP/PAL him (Usher) and the breeding stops here, stopping all sports dogs, etc. For me, the choice was easy. Neuter him. I don't have the ability to walk backwards anymore, hence my dog trialing days are over. I really hate that. I DO need an obedient dog for a service dog and do LOVE competition- do I want him to add to the gene pool of sports dogs- NOPE. So, that was MY choice and now I have "outed" myself and maybe you can understand why.

[Sue R]

Kristine and Dianne - Thank you. That is good feedback but, as said, I am still not hearing from the people that it was my goal in this topic, the Open level handlers, the farm/ranch handlers, who also chose AKC participation and such.

 

I am beginning to think it is not much different from what I originally surmised - some started with AKC and have stayed "active" there because of friends and associations; some are "required" in one way or another (maybe work with 4H where kids also do showmanship; maybe have a business whose clientele include or may be dominated by AKC and hobby folks, and titles may be important or necessary for that; maybe keep the farm afloat with AKC students and also selling pups and such, and titles are important there also); provide assistance at AKC herding events because it pays and it's good work/practice/experience and because AKC competitors may not do pens, set out, etc.; maybe just think titles are meaningful and/or are a big ego boost; some that have been rather a wash-out in traditional venues have found the AKC venue to be a place where they can excel; find that they and their dog enjoy AKC venues; or find that's what's available in their area, which is not an apparent issue with stockdog events but rather other activities).

 

I guess what I was really hoping for was input from people who felt that their involvement with AKC could make or was making a positive difference - showing those folks what a real Border Collie could do; raising the bar and maintaining the traditional Border Collie instincts and qualities against the tide of show ring and perfomance breeders; and educating people in the KC set who just swallow the party line and don't know any better.

 

I think there are people like this. I thought that I could make a difference by educating people in our local KC when I participated with my (obviously) not AKC-bred dogs, spent tons of time putting on an educational program about stockdogs (complete with video and handouts, and other visuals), and spoke to anyone who would listen about maintaing purpose in a breed and how breeding for other things was counterproductive to the breed, and on and on.

 

And do you know what happened, who listened, who changed their way of thinking? No one. Not really. It all fell on deaf ears. Or maybe I should say, ears that had already been filled with other ideas and weren't going to listen. The few people that would admit to disillusionment with the AKC with regard to at least certain breeds, still remain as members, contributors, competitors, and oftentimes supporters. Why?

 

The AKC (as in UK, the KC) has generally come to mean the "stamp of approval" or a symbol of quality (and, I believe, compared to the many pseudo-registries that have sprung up to service the puppy mill and byb producers and their gullible market, it is in general). For a number of breeds, AKC may be as good as it can get, because they have already lost so much of what they once were. But for a breed like the Border Collie (or maybe for many other, so-far "undiscovered" or intact breeds with purpose), I think it is a disaster.

 

I've tried to make a difference in one small AKC affiliate club, and it hasn't happened. I think there are folks who are trying to do the same on a much bigger scale in AKC and BCSA, but I think they are swimming against the tide. And some don't care about making a difference, they are just in it for whatever benefit or boost they think it gives to them.

 

What I am seeing from off-forum responses is that the situation is more complex than I imagined for some people, with a combination of reasons and rationales. I may or may not agree with any of them, but each of us makes our own choices.

 

This particular post probably makes no sense at all and has little relevance to the subject. I've spent way too much time thinking about this topic and getting no place fast.

[stockdogranch]

Just got back and saw this topic. I think it's a good one.

 

When I first started, the trainer I worked with would train anything (I mean anything!) and hosted 2 AKC trials here a year. He also judged AKC and AHBA (although he competed with his own dogs in USBCHA trials (Open), but would also run AKC dogs for clients). I, knowing nothing, figured that was the thing to do, so followed suit. I was the "assistant trainer" for several years. Over the years he phased himself out of working dogs altogether, but I continued the business. Once I got rid of him, and the business was mine alone, I got really tired (frustrated) of working with the other breeds, so quit doing that. Then I realized the hypocrisy of judging AKC, so quit that. I still occasionally judge AHBA (maybe once a year) because I need the money and they are not promoting bad breeding decisions. The only issue I have with their program is the awarding of titles for less than good work.

 

When I first started, there were a number of really big names (at least in this area) who did the same as I did. Not sure why, but it seemed the thing to do, and I guess that's where the money was (is). Most of those folks have also phased themselves out of AKC as well now, too.

 

I know of a few, some fairly big names, some not so much, but Open handlers all the same, who continue to work a LOT with AKC, and I know it's for the money. They work with clients with other breeds, they show their own dogs AKC, too. When they are at a local trial, and they win everything, it helps generate lots of clients. So it's the money, I think. They, for the most part, do not agree with breeding for conformation (at least that's my take on them), but figure as long as those dogs are out there, take advantage of the money they can generate. They have not (yet) had the realization that by doing so they are supporting the Evil Empire.

 

A

[Little Bo Boop]

From what I've seen around here, the handlers that run in both venues seem to do it for their business. I have a friend that I trial with, we both run in Open Ranch, and she does quite well. She also runs in AKC trials (has tried to talk me into it ; -) but I passed (not only don't I have the interest, but they are $$$$$$$ and no payback, they give dog toys as prizes. Anyway she has a boarding/training kennel, and competes in everything from agility to dock diving. I suppose competing in the AKC trials gets her name and the name of her kennel, out there, so I'm sure it generates some revenue, plus I think she does like to win whatever..different strokes I guess. We also have an Open handler in our club that I believe competes in AKC trials as well (and for the same reasons) She also does fairly well, and I believe she went to the National finals last year (and I'm pretty sure she's qualified more than once) So, I guess from what I've seen around here, $$$$ seems to be the biggest motivating factor for someone, as you call "knowledgeable" to run in both venues.

 

 

Betty

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with what Anna and Betty have said. The folks I know who trial in open and also either judge, compete in, or take students for AKC trials do so because it pays well (not the trials obviously, but if you win a lot then folks will be willing to pay you well to train them and their dogs). As Betty pointed out, AKC trials are expensive, and it's a whole base of people who are used to paying more for entries, lessons, etc., so it can be a lucrative business. Especially if you live in an area where AKC trials are more common and USBCHA are not, then it's a good means of making a living. It's also a ready market for selling puppies or started dogs. I can't say this with authority, but I would guess that when it comes to making a living, at least some folks are willing to put aside the ethics of dealing with AKC. I would also guess that at least if they're just doing lessons or selling dogs they may even justify it as a way to expose AKC types to the "other side" and good dogs. Just my opinion though, some of which I've developed from talking to folks who are involved with the AKC.

 

J.