Shy dog "shuts down"

[Chelsiedog]

Hello: Our newly adopted BC female (11mths old) who we named Chelsie, is a very shy/submissive girl but has really been coming along nicely and gaining confidence. However, anytime you say anything with a negitive tone to correct her or if she feels any pressure to do something, she will shut off and not listen. And the more you approach her (ie, if she won't come, and you approach her), she will run and do what I call playing chicken, just being super submissive and evasive keeping away. Normally she is a very obedient dog, she knows many commands and likes to please. We want to handle this the right way, because the more pressure you put on her when she's in shut down mode, the more harm than good it does. She is a very fragile natured dog I think. Ideas would be wonderful.

 

Edit: Oops, I somehow posted this twice. Sorry.

[Ninso]

I had a similar situation when I adopted my dog at almost two years old. He shut down very easily from pressure, whether it was mild correction, training for more than a minute or two or just exposing him to situations he wasn't comfortable with. It's been almost a year now and he is TONS better. I would just give her some time to come out of her shell and try not to pressure her. Rather than using a negative tone to correct her, maybe just redirect her to an appropriate activity or simply call her away in a happy voice. Rather than walking straight toward her, maybe approach her at an angle, or simply crouch down and call her and wait for her to choose to come to you, then praise. After being home for ten months, my dog is still showing me new sides of his personality as he becomes more comfortable and confident. It just takes some time and patience.

[Shetlander]

I strongly recommend clicker training for this type of dog. It is a big confidence builder.

 

There are books specifically addressing issues of shy dogs. Also, I know Yahoo Groups has at least one group for owners of shy dogs (and tons of clicker groups).

 

If she is running off in situations where you need to be able to get her back, keep her leashed at those times where you might need to do something that triggers her flight resposne so she can not practice the potentially dangerous behavior of ignoring a recall.

 

You didn't say how long you've had her but she may well need time to settle in and learn to trust you. Also, some dogs are very soft in general due to temperament/experience and need only very mild corrections. You don't want to fuss over shy/soft dogs ('poor thing!') or not provide structure and discipline, but you may need to do so in a different way (quieter, calmer, gentler) than with the average dog.

[Chelsiedog]

Thank you. We're trying to be very "nonchalant" I guess you could say. We praise very "to the point", no 'baby talk' really because I think it makes her..squirmy. lol

 

Last night, she didn't want to come. I tried a few times. She thinks once she doesn't come the first time, she's in trouble and gives up (aka, shut down). I wasn't sure what to do.. when I approached her, she ran. When I walked the other way, she looked at me wagging her tail but just sitting there.

[Shoofly]

Thank you. We're trying to be very "nonchalant" I guess you could say. We praise very "to the point", no 'baby talk' really because I think it makes her..squirmy. lol

 

Last night, she didn't want to come. I tried a few times. She thinks once she doesn't come the first time, she's in trouble and gives up (aka, shut down). I wasn't sure what to do.. when I approached her, she ran. When I walked the other way, she looked at me wagging her tail but just sitting there.

 

This is going to be really hard to describe over the internet, but...you're probably putting too much pressure on her and not letting the pressure up soon enough. When she doesn't come to you, try a tiny bit of pressure, just the tiniest bit you need to get a reaction from her. So, call her, she ignores, take a step towards her and *as soon as you see any sign of giving up*, stop, call her again and turn around and go the other way, then when she follows or even looks towards you, praise her quietly and keep moving away so she can follow you, then give her a big fat yummy treat the second she gets to you.

 

When you just keep walking towards her and she's cowering or moving away, she's feeling like "okay, i submitted, i gave up and he's still coming at me, i can't win, what do i do now, i'll just run away". What you want to do is stop that process right after "i submitted/gave up/i'm sorry" and give her a way to get out of "trouble". Reward that thought as soon as you see her think it by turning around and moving away from her so she can follow you and get praise for coming along.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I would second clicker training for this type of dog. My own is very shy/nervous and she is extremely soft when it comes to corrections. Clicker training has helped with her confidence so much because she knows instantly what I expect from her and there is very little correction becuase, I break down the excersizes into small enough segments that she can't fail. I would try (if you can) to limit your corrections, even verbal as they are offending her and just try to re-direct her to something, even a toy, that will get her some praise. Click to Calm is a good book to check out, along with "Cautious Canine" by Patricia McConnell.

 

I don't know how long you've had her, or what kind of situation she was adopted from so chances are she is afraid to come because something bad happened?? Punishement for "going" in the house or something? Perhaps you could try using small bits of food as a lure and when you call her crouch down, look away and open your arms in an inviting manner, use kissy noises and stuff. When she comes, give her a nice reward (treat) and praise! Alternately you can try moving backwards very quickly clapping your hands and making more kissy noises again, with lots of treats and praise when she comes. Trish King has a book called "Parenting your dog" that I just finished reading and it has more similar ideas of training basic obedience. I like her because she is for positive reinforcment, which is the best thing for shy dogs.

 

best of luck!

[Chelsiedog]

I strongly recommend clicker training for this type of dog. It is a big confidence builder.

 

There are books specifically addressing issues of shy dogs. Also, I know Yahoo Groups has at least one group for owners of shy dogs (and tons of clicker groups).

 

If she is running off in situations where you need to be able to get her back, keep her leashed at those times where you might need to do something that triggers her flight resposne so she can not practice the potentially dangerous behavior of ignoring a recall.

 

You didn't say how long you've had her but she may well need time to settle in and learn to trust you. Also, some dogs are very soft in general due to temperament/experience and need only very mild corrections. You don't want to fuss over shy/soft dogs ('poor thing!') or not provide structure and discipline, but you may need to do so in a different way (quieter, calmer, gentler) than with the average dog.

 

What exactly is involved in clicker training? I am semi-familair with it for dogs and horses, but don't fully grasp the concept? I'd be interested in knowing more. Is it something a husband can learn too? lol

[bc4pack]

Play 'hard to get'

and here is a website with a link to Shy-k9s...

http://www.fearfuldogs.com

 

Do come on over...

1. There are tons of savvy, experienced owners and trainers dealing with these dogs specifically

and

2. You'll find tremendous emotional support.

 

Plus training help too

 

http://www.clickersolutions.com

[Shetlander]

What exactly is involved in clicker training? I am semi-familair with it for dogs and horses, but don't fully grasp the concept? I'd be interested in knowing more. Is it something a husband can learn too? lol

 

Can the husband learn what? How to clicker train or how to be clicker trained? Both, I'd say.

 

I think one of the best clicker primers out there is Click to Calm by Emma Parsons. It's marketed towards aggressive dogs, but it works great with shy dogs (I've used it with my Sheltie) and is just a really good book on how to clicker train, period. Click for Joy is pretty good and I believe written by the moderator or a moderator of Clicker Solutions (which is a crazy posting group -- just be warned there used to be about 50-75 posts a day back when I would read it). Another thing to consider if you can't find an instructor take a class with, is Cyber Agility which Helix Fairweather used to offer via the Internet and hopefully still does. It starts with real foundation work and even if you aren't interested in doing agility, it is a great way to have someone help you with things like timing and when to increase criteria or if you're going too fast. It was hugely helpful for me when I started clicker training for the first time. She used to have her own Yahoo group, but I can't remember the name or tell you if she still does.

 

One thing to consider is your dog may not like the sound of a regular clicker, especially the kind you'd find in a pet store. My Shelties both ran from that sound despite the fact I was holding treats at the time. I like the I-Click which has a much softer noise. After a while, the Sheltie was no longer afraid of the regular clicker but her right eye used to give a little twitch each click so I figured it still bugged her on some level and tossed it aside. Also, more often than not, I used a verbal marker "Yes" than a clicker of any kind. There are varying opinions of whether this works, often strong opinions, but it works fine for my dogs and I feel my timing is better with a verbal marker than a clicker.

[orion318]

What exactly is involved in clicker training? I am semi-familair with it for dogs and horses, but don't fully grasp the concept? I'd be interested in knowing more. Is it something a husband can learn too? lol

 

Well the concept is easy you associate the "click" with a positive reinforcement (food/toy)

 

This is done by what's called "charging" the clicker. (start of by click*food*click*food*click*food etc)

Then a good way is to move on to targets (open hand, nose touch, click food, and repeat, always give food with hand opposite to the one they touch, and switch target hands around)

 

When the clicker is properly "charged" the dog associates it with a positive thing, so the clicker can be come a marker for a job well done.

 

So it becomes a great way to shape an exercice. for example a good exercice for clicker training and also for making a dog "think" and develop behaviours is the box.

 

Put a small cardboard box on the ground, with a dog that's never done this throw a bit of food in the box (the watching dog follows it in) you click when his nose is in there. Repeat a couple of times, then don't put food there and say nothing. The dog will try to provide a behaviour to get the reward. So when he goes down to check if its there you click and reward away from the box (throwing the food to the side of the box is a good way). You'll see that the dog will provide the behaviour quicker and quicker.

 

Later you might ignore when he puts his nose in the box, by not clicking the dog will get a little frustrated and provide a new beahaviour (maybe a paw in the box) click. And now only click the paw.

Then you can try 2 paws, 3, all the dog in the box, laying down inside it etc.

 

It might seem a bit pointless but it's a great exercice to devolpe a behavioral response to different situations.

So when you are teaching new commands later the dog will pick up on what's needed later.

 

Remember with the clicker timing is everything and it can be quite fiddly at first (you have 2 hands and clicker+food+leash or target or other stuff will prove challenging at first, but practice makes perfect).

 

Hope that explained the clicker philosophy well.

Ah and with you dog, BC were bread to be sensitive (to respond to whistles a mile away they had to be) and for some dogs normal pressure is too much, so for example if you get to that stage when for a new behaviour you have to frustrate them a bit you have to be careful because too much frustration may cause her to shut down, if she fails the idea a couple of times, re-click what she was doing before to remotivate her.

[Shetlander]

So it becomes a great way to shape an exercice. for example a good exercice for clicker training and also for making a dog "think" and develop behaviours is the box.

 

I just want to caution that for some dog/training combos the 101 Things to Do with a Box exercise can be incredibly frustrating. While my Lhasa would do 202 things with a box, including send it cross country via UPS, it was agony for my Sheltie (and me!). And I had a friend with a Corgi who also went out of her mind with this exercise. But lots of people just love this, especially when starting a dog out in clicker training.

[orion318]

Yup you have to know your dog and how to handle their frustration.

They don't have to do 101 things, and i forgot to say above...remember always ALWAYS short training sessions. 5 minutes is enough.

First day a simple nose in the box food is enough. the next time you try it the dog will remember how the magical food box worked.

You have to keep it a point of interest and not one of frustration but this obviously depends on what do you have and how they react to the unknown.

 

People sometime over do the box in time and expectation and the dog and owner shut down

[Shetlander]

People sometime over do the box in time and expectation and the dog and owner shut down

 

That's a good point. Sassy had both her traditional obedience training background and her Sheltie nature ("Just tell me what to do and I'll do it, for Pity's Sake!") to overcome. I finally gave up trying to do much with clicker training or any training for that matter. She is my Stay At Home, Practically Perfect Sheltie and shows little interest in learning new things. But anyway, this is the sort of thing where it is very helpful to get feedback from an instructor or an Internet group. Because you do run into things like when to put behaviors on cue (I still struggle with that) or breaking the task down enough.

[Chelsiedog]

Play 'hard to get'

and here is a website with a link to Shy-k9s...

http://www.fearfuldogs.com

 

Do come on over...

1. There are tons of savvy, experienced owners and trainers dealing with these dogs specifically

and

2. You'll find tremendous emotional support.

 

Plus training help too

 

http://www.clickersolutions.com

Thanks. I will see about checking it out.

[Chelsiedog]

This is going to be really hard to describe over the internet, but...you're probably putting too much pressure on her and not letting the pressure up soon enough. When she doesn't come to you, try a tiny bit of pressure, just the tiniest bit you need to get a reaction from her. So, call her, she ignores, take a step towards her and *as soon as you see any sign of giving up*, stop, call her again and turn around and go the other way, then when she follows or even looks towards you, praise her quietly and keep moving away so she can follow you, then give her a big fat yummy treat the second she gets to you.

 

When you just keep walking towards her and she's cowering or moving away, she's feeling like "okay, i submitted, i gave up and he's still coming at me, i can't win, what do i do now, i'll just run away". What you want to do is stop that process right after "i submitted/gave up/i'm sorry" and give her a way to get out of "trouble". Reward that thought as soon as you see her think it by turning around and moving away from her so she can follow you and get praise for coming along.

 

Thank you. By the way, a few have wondered how long we've had her, we've only had her maybe almost a month? Not long at all so she still has alot of adjusting to do. I also used to come here often a couple years ago, but didn't remain active.

[Chelsiedog]

Can the husband learn what? How to clicker train or how to be clicker trained? Both, I'd say.

One thing to consider is your dog may not like the sound of a regular clicker, especially the kind you'd find in a pet store. My Shelties both ran from that sound despite the fact I was holding treats at the time. I like the I-Click which has a much softer noise. After a while, the Sheltie was no longer afraid of the regular clicker but her right eye used to give a little twitch each click so I figured it still bugged her on some level and tossed it aside. Also, more often than not, I used a verbal marker "Yes" than a clicker of any kind. There are varying opinions of whether this works, often strong opinions, but it works fine for my dogs and I feel my timing is better with a verbal marker than a clicker.

 

LOL I kind of meant, can a husband learn to *use* a clicker easily lol But training one also could work!! So this is probably a very over-asked question with clicker training, but you mentioned you say "Yes" to mark good behavior...so, wouldn't most dogs prefer their owner talking/petting, etc.? Or do you do both with clicker training, or..??

 

And: Is it possible to use clicker training temporarily/as a stepping stone? For example, in my dogs shyness situation, could a start in clicker training help her just all around ?

[Chelsiedog]

Well the concept is easy you associate the "click" with a positive reinforcement (food/toy)

 

This is done by what's called "charging" the clicker. (start of by click*food*click*food*click*food etc)

Then a good way is to move on to targets (open hand, nose touch, click food, and repeat, always give food with hand opposite to the one they touch, and switch target hands around)

 

When the clicker is properly "charged" the dog associates it with a positive thing, so the clicker can be come a marker for a job well done.

 

So it becomes a great way to shape an exercice. for example a good exercice for clicker training and also for making a dog "think" and develop behaviours is the box.

 

Put a small cardboard box on the ground, with a dog that's never done this throw a bit of food in the box (the watching dog follows it in) you click when his nose is in there. Repeat a couple of times, then don't put food there and say nothing. The dog will try to provide a behaviour to get the reward. So when he goes down to check if its there you click and reward away from the box (throwing the food to the side of the box is a good way). You'll see that the dog will provide the behaviour quicker and quicker.

 

Later you might ignore when he puts his nose in the box, by not clicking the dog will get a little frustrated and provide a new beahaviour (maybe a paw in the box) click. And now only click the paw.

Then you can try 2 paws, 3, all the dog in the box, laying down inside it etc.

 

It might seem a bit pointless but it's a great exercice to devolpe a behavioral response to different situations.

So when you are teaching new commands later the dog will pick up on what's needed later.

 

Remember with the clicker timing is everything and it can be quite fiddly at first (you have 2 hands and clicker+food+leash or target or other stuff will prove challenging at first, but practice makes perfect).

 

Hope that explained the clicker philosophy well.

Ah and with you dog, BC were bread to be sensitive (to respond to whistles a mile away they had to be) and for some dogs normal pressure is too much, so for example if you get to that stage when for a new behaviour you have to frustrate them a bit you have to be careful because too much frustration may cause her to shut down, if she fails the idea a couple of times, re-click what she was doing before to remotivate her.

Thank you orion for explaining all of that... wow! I'm interested to try that. I like the idea of re-clicking the good behavior, if she misses a few times - she gets frusterated I think with herself if she doesn't "get" something..and then assumes she's in trouble for it. Then shut down!

[Chelsiedog]

I would second clicker training for this type of dog. My own is very shy/nervous and she is extremely soft when it comes to corrections. Clicker training has helped with her confidence so much because she knows instantly what I expect from her and there is very little correction becuase, I break down the excersizes into small enough segments that she can't fail. I would try (if you can) to limit your corrections, even verbal as they are offending her and just try to re-direct her to something, even a toy, that will get her some praise. Click to Calm is a good book to check out, along with "Cautious Canine" by Patricia McConnell.

 

I don't know how long you've had her, or what kind of situation she was adopted from so chances are she is afraid to come because something bad happened?? Punishement for "going" in the house or something? Perhaps you could try using small bits of food as a lure and when you call her crouch down, look away and open your arms in an inviting manner, use kissy noises and stuff. When she comes, give her a nice reward (treat) and praise! Alternately you can try moving backwards very quickly clapping your hands and making more kissy noises again, with lots of treats and praise when she comes. Trish King has a book called "Parenting your dog" that I just finished reading and it has more similar ideas of training basic obedience. I like her because she is for positive reinforcment, which is the best thing for shy dogs.

 

best of luck!

By the way, I'm assuming your dogs name is Daisy Duke? We are Dukes fans, so it was almost going to be my dogs name. lol Thanks, I will try the suggestions. I try not to be negitive verbally as much as possible. So the hard to get approach seems best. With your shy dog, were you ever able to reach a point where she was able to handle corrections? I mean, I want her to know what IS bad and whats good and not just crumble emotionally if she gets a slight correction, if that makes sense.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

So this is probably a very over-asked question with clicker training, but you mentioned you say "Yes" to mark good behavior...so, wouldn't most dogs prefer their owner talking/petting, etc.? Or do you do both with clicker training, or..??

 

And: Is it possible to use clicker training temporarily/as a stepping stone? For example, in my dogs shyness situation, could a start in clicker training help her just all around ?

 

You can definately use a "marker" word or a game of tug, really whatever is the BEST motivation for your dog. I use a clicker because the noise gets her eyes sparkling (she knows she's done good!) and treats because this one is super food motivated. BUT depending on what we are working on, sometimes I will use a marker word to kind of reinforce what she is doing, and when she's done she gets lots of treats, sometimes I don't even use a clicker because food/praise is reinforcement enough. Clicker training is supposed to be used as a stepping stone, to shape and polish desired behaviour and you fade out the c/t over a bit of time the behaviour stays because you've given it a verbal command at the same time.

 

I can't say for sure in your situation, you've only had your dog for about a month, so I would give her sometime to get settled in and figure everything out first. You should check out Click to Calm because it does go over some useful techniques that will help the two of you form a better bond. She will also gain confidence because the click can/will mark when she's done something right and the two of you will be able to communicate easily. The best advice I could offer is to find a great trainer in your area that offers classes for shy dogs! We've just gone through two classes with two awsome trainers and it's done wonders for Daisy's confidence. She willingly went up to a stranger and sniffed her hand the other day....definately un-heard of previously!

[urge to herd]

Clicker Training For Husbands:

1)Whenever DH rinses a dish, enthusiastically say, "Thanks, sweetie, I really appreciate your help. Would you like me to get you some more chips?"

2)DH progresses to rinsing dish and then putting into dishwasher.

With real conviction, I say, "That's great, it's been a long day and I love seeing the kitchen tidy when I come home. Would you like a peanut butter cup?"

3)DH rinses and places in dishwasher an entire sinkful of dirty dishes, AND puts in the soap, AND turns it on - all before I get home from work.

JACKPOT!!!! - "Oh, the kitchen looks so good, I can relax and spend some time with you, I'll order a pizza with extra pepperoni!"

 

Well, that's the short version from my house, but DH does dishes and cleans up the kitchen without my saying a word these days. I didn't use an actual clicker, but applied the concepts all the same.

 

For a shy, sound sensitive dog, you can use a ball point pen to click, or the lid of a Snapple bottle. If she does something you like spontaneously and you don't have a clicker on you, you can use a word or sound, just make it something you don't normally say in conversation. I say "YES" in a very high, almost squeaky voice and give reinforcment for those times, the dogs catch on quickly to both signals.

 

As a couple people have said, if you give her more space and let her make the decisions to come to you, she'll get comfortable faster. You can try tossing her treats, gradually (over a period of days, probably) tossing them so they land closer and closer to you, then just hold your hand loosely at your side with a smelly treat in it, and let her come take it out of your hand. Don't pet or react when she does this, move a couple steps away and repeat. You want to reinforce that her decision to be close to you gets her some good stuff. Responding at all by talking, petting, etc, is just too much for her right now.

 

Thanks for taking her in - I love my shy dogs, they really grab the heart and it's so rewarding to see them blossom.

 

Ruth n the BC3

[Shetlander]

So this is probably a very over-asked question with clicker training, but you mentioned you say "Yes" to mark good behavior...so, wouldn't most dogs prefer their owner talking/petting, etc.? Or do you do both with clicker training, or..??

 

The idea of using a marker is to mark the exact behavior you want. I pet and talk to my dogs a lot. Sometimes that is all I use to let them know I'm happy with them. But if I'm working on training a specific behavior, using a marker is a way of telling the dog right that second "Yes! That's what I want! That right there!" It's fun to watch them think and work things out. And it's very fun to see the light bulb go on over their head.

 

And: Is it possible to use clicker training temporarily/as a stepping stone? For example, in my dogs shyness situation, could a start in clicker training help her just all around?

 

I don't see why not. I don't use clicker training all the time. The Lhasa gets the most, partly because he is the most heavily clicker trained of my three and he is always looking to initiate a "game" with me where he gets lots of attention, has fun and earns treats (usually bits of kibble). I think clicker training is good for dogs all around in that it teaches them to work with you in a fun, relaxed way and encourages them to think of you as a good source of fun and food. It also encourages them to try new behaviors, something a shy dog may be reluctant to do, because trying new things can result in rewards.

 

With your shy dog, were you ever able to reach a point where she was able to handle corrections? I mean, I want her to know what IS bad and whats good and not just crumble emotionally if she gets a slight correction, if that makes sense.

 

You posed this to someone else, but are there some behaviors you are concerned about that you feel the need to correct her? Something you are trying to address with corrections? And I guess an important question is what are you doing to correct her?

 

Can a shy dog handle corrections? Often yes, but you want to use as light corrections as possible and pay close attention to their reactions. For instance, both my Shelties acted as though they were being horribly mistreated if I led them by the collar. No matter how gently I took hold of the collar, it was torture for them. Nowadays, I would condition them to be fine with me taking their collars but back then it never occurred to me.

 

At any rate, your pup has only been with you a few weeks and is still getting to know you and learning how to trust you. In addition to not really knowing you, it sounds like she also is struggling with fears and insecurity. I personally would want to go slow and easy on corrections with her. If she was doing things I didn't like, I'd work on managing her so she didn't have opportunities to do those things. I'd also concentrate on forging a good relationship through training, walks, just hanging out, etc.

[orion318]

Yes you can and should mark with both clicker and praise.

 

Click first to mark the moment than say "good" or "YES" or whatever makes your dog tickle

 

And clicker training is great for most things.

For example my GSD doesn't enjoy that people touch his big ears too much (bad for Vets etc), so now i'm desensitising it with the clicker.

Make him lean his ear against my head going for the food, click treat, then letting me hold it, click treat.

Hopefully to a point that he'll let them be cleaned without trying to run off (or looking with cold eyes at the vet).

 

Same can be done with a lot of things. This dog i know was afraid of water bottles and the sound they make (a kid scared him with one when he was younger) and through clicker training he now acts perfectly normal around them.

 

But has above the dog hasn't been with you too long, go about everything gently..you are pretty much still in a bonding stage, so don't overdo anything.

 

Good luck

[Chelsiedog]

edit

[Root Beer]

I second and third the recommendation of clicker training.

 

Even if you don't get into a lot of free shaping (which is a fantastic tool), using the clicker with a fearful dog can be very powerful. For Speedy, the clicker is a bridge that I can use to assure him that I am aware of the things that he is frightened of and that I have it all under control. It has made a huge difference to us and he is normal in most situations now.

 

Click to Calm is a good resource. You might check out Control Unleashed, too. The Look at That Game can be very helpful to a fearful dog