berocca Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 A great home came along for a rescue dog who's been in care for about 8 weeks. His name is Logan and he is a Border Collie cross perhaps Labrador and maybe a little bit of staffy too. He is about 8 months old - very smart - has learnt manners while in foster care and was in care with 2 other male dogs and 1 female - all working breeds ranginging from 1 year to 4 years old. There were no prolems with Logan and his canine foster buddies. Logan does have the type of persoanlity where he will react when challenged - he's not submissive. Logan has been rehomed with a 18 month old female border collie who is dog social and used to dogs coming to her home. She does seem to have a soft nature about her. The 2 dogs met on neutral territory and all was fine - then they went home together and all was fine for about 24 hours. Below is the new owners details of events from Monday thru to today: Logan certainly seems to be consistently asserting himself as Number 1. He is very pushy with Molly, Jumping on her constantly, taking toys from her, pushing her around the room etc. Sometimes this is fine, Molly seems to accept it and they play etc and Molly always seems to back down. On Monday afternoon there was a scuffle. I was outside for a while playing with the dogs and walked inside leaving the door open for them to come in. Logan pushed his way through and I turned around to see what the noise was and they were both jammed trying to get through the door (inside is obviously a VERY exciting place!!). Anyway, they both ran up to me and sat about 3 feet apart (after I told them to) and I put both hands out to give them a pat and Logan stood up and again tried to push Molly out of the way. She backed off quickly yet again. Then she turned full circle to try to come back (by this stage I was just standing upright watching them) and then they got funny. Hackles, staring, snarls etc. They both showed their teeth and I said "thats enough!" just as Logan lunged at Molly. She took off upstairs and hid under the bed. I put Logan outside immediately to separate them and went up to find Molly. I tried to call her but she wouldn't come out. She was up there for over 2 hours. Logan came back in after 20 or so minutes. This has been a regular occurrence ever since. As soon as I have just myself and the two of them together, Logan pushes inbetween myself and Molly (this behaviour goes unrewarded - I stop patting both of them/ignore them etc) and then they start with the snarling/barking/hackles before I separate them. I have also tried turning my back and walking away when they do it and telling them 'uh-uh' 'NO'. Every time it ends in Molly running away. As I said to you yesterday Molly was right in the back of her Kennel when I got home yesterday and she wouldn't come and greet me which broke my heart!! (I am a bit of a sook when it comes to things like that!). I let Logan go inside thinking his presence might be the issue and she stuck her head out to lick my hand but it took ages for her to come out (nearly and hour). And she was very sooky/timid all night. Today it was the same, she wouldn't even come out to play with the ball in the backyard. So they have just had their dinner outside and I went downstairs mid-way through this email to check on them as there was a lot of noise in the backyard and Molly was back in her kennel. I called them both inside as it is getting chilly out there and thought I could keep a good eye on them. Logan came flying in and Molly again stayed curled up in her kennel. After reading your email, not to 'molly coddle' Molly, I have decided to leave her outside and spend some more time with Logan on my own. He is a great little dog, but Molly's sudden sooky behaviour and almost fear that I am seeing in her is really bothering me. I don't want to condone Logan's pushy behaviour, and I won't allow their scuffles to get any worse. I will keep an eye on things, but if there is no change in the next few days,I might have to make the call to unfortunately send Logan back. I really wish I had every single day available to work with both of them and their relationship, but I do have to leave them alone at times in the day. I think Logan's pushiness is part of his boistrous, playful nature and with correct manners training it will calm down. But this is Molly's house too and I really don't want her hiding from both Logan and myself and I don't like seeing her get 'aggressive' either. So for the next few days I will keep going with: - not rewarding Molly's sooks with pats etc - Continuing with the 'uh-uh' when it starts in my presence - working on Logan's manners with more 'sit' and 'stays' (which he is VERY good at when in the right frame of mind!) - keeping a good eye on the situation I have loaned the new owner Patricia McConnells book 'Feeling Outnumbered' which she has already read and is trying to apply some of the techniques in the book. This scuffles only occur in the presence of the wife. It doesn't happen around the husband. They really want to try and work things out but I guess they don't really want to start spending a lot of money on behavourists (assumption on my part) while Logan is on trial. Molly is their first dog and she is their priority - Logan was supposed to be a friend for Molly. The last thing I want is for Molly to be adversly affected by having Logan in the house. Can anyone please offer some other advice which may assist with settling the situation down? Or is it a case of a relationship which is perhaps just not meant to be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berocca Posted August 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 The above post is actually a cross post, it was written by the lady from the rescue. Logan was my foster dog. I had absolutely no issues with him whatsoever, he fit nicely into my pack (at the top of it, but that's where most fosters place themselves and my dogs are fine with that). My other foster is very similar to Molly, he is a sensitive soul who doesn't cope well with raised voices etc but Logan didn't bother him at all. In fact, I had absolutely no issues with Logan bullying any of my dogs, he was naturally dominant without actually asserting his dominance if you know what I mean. He was a little pushy when it came to pats but no more than the other dogs. I usually just shoved him out of the way if needed (not hard, just to make a clearway between 4 dogs ). Logan went along to flyball and agility each week where he got to run with all sorts of dogs without any problems. He got too close to a dog with known dog-dog issues (other dog got out during the free-for-all at the end of training) and Logan didn't back down when challenged, however, there was nothing really to it other than a "hey watch where you flash those pearly whites buddy". Neither dog managed to get any saliva on them let alone any more and I saw nothing particularly worrisome in it. The new family have not owned more than one dog before and I personally believe that they are struggling with the changing dynamics a little. Im wondering if the things they talk of actually happened here and I didn't even pay any attention to it as it was really minor, Im trying to think how I would have reacted to different things before becoming a multi-dog household. It would be great if everything could work out for him in this family. They are nice people and Logan was smitten with them right from the start. He and Molly got along well at the park and everything seemed perfect... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flrpwr52 Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 We have just gone through something similar to this. Kya (my youngest 1 1/2 years) was getting bratty with Zoe (4 years old). Ari the 3 year old didn't have anything to do with their fights. It started out as posturing and looks then went into snarls and fights. All this only happened when my husband was home and only outside. Our behaviorist suggested keeping a collar with a 5 foot rope attached to Kya since she was the one who always started the fights. Zoe would never come close to us if Kya was in the area. Any time Kya would look or snarl we would take the rope and tell her timeout, not with an angry tone, and tie her to a chair leg or whatever was close by. It was important that she could still be close by, about 10 feet away. We left her tied up for about 15 minutes each time. It took two days of doing this and we haven't had any fights since. There still is the occasional look or growl and when it happens she has a timeout. It was stressed to us that while she is in a timeout we should not look at or talk to her, to take that time and pet Zoe. The behaviorist also suggested that while we were seated to have Kya, still dragging the rope, on one side and call Zoe to the other side and pet both dogs telling them how good they were. This has worked great too. I hope this can help Molly's owners and Logan can stay in their home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 The new family have not owned more than one dog before and I personally believe that they are struggling with the changing dynamics a little. Im wondering if the things they talk of actually happened here and I didn't even pay any attention to it as it was really minor, Im trying to think how I would have reacted to different things before becoming a multi-dog household. It would be great if everything could work out for him in this family. They are nice people and Logan was smitten with them right from the start. He and Molly got along well at the park and everything seemed perfect... I have nothing to add in terms of advice for these people but think the above comment is interesting. Being a single dog house now and having been raised in a single dog house I also would be very concerned with a change in behavior so strong from my original girl. In the description she sounds very unhappy to me. Maybe it is not Logan's fault, but he does sound very pushy *with her* and she sounds like she's coping worse and worse with it rather than adjusting. Again, I know nothing about introducing dogs, but I already feel such a strong bond with Odin that if another dog came and he started acting like she describes Molly acting, I might also decide our home was not the best for the new guy. I'm sure dogs can be sulky for no "good" reason during a change in dynamics and can come out of it. But the longer I felt my original dog was being harassed, the harder it would be to form a bond with the new dog. When DH and I introduced our cats, there was a similar dynamic between my alpha and his alpha. They never got over it, after months. My cat was living under the coffee table, much like Molly seems to be living in the back of her kennel. Eventually, we kept them permanently separated and my old guy got his life/freedom/confidence back. I will be watching this thread with interest to see other more experienced multi-dog owners' views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 Honestly it sounds like Logan has been given WAAAAY too much freedom, and too soon. If it were me, I'd have the new home start a strict Nothing in Life is Free program for *both* dogs, give Molly some more one-on-one time in the house w/o Logan present, and avoid leaving the dogs loose together unsupervised. Logan needs to have more structure and people who will ensure that he isn't practicing the behavior they don't want - NILIF and more supervision can only help with this. I'm guessing he did so well in your house because you naturally have more rules and structure by virtue of having multiple dogs. I know fosters tend to do quite well in my home, but their behavior often slips some when they go into a new one that lets them have more freedom; fosters here spend a fair amount of time crated at first, are never left unsupervised, and follow a strict work to earn program (NILIF basically). I also ensure the resident dogs get special priveledges and attention from me w/o the foster present to solidify their standing in my home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 There is a good article on introducing dogs on http://www.aggressivebehaviorsindogs.com under articles... Might be of interest.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berocca Posted August 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 If it is as bad as the owner is saying then yes it is a problem. However, having recently gone through it with a flyball team mate who got a second dog I realised how much she was worrying about small things. I spent the night at her house and observed, turns out smokie "hiding behind the shed to get away from milo" was actually smokie "hiding behind the shed so that when milo later walked past she could dart out and he would chase her and fun and games would ensue." Forcing Smokie to eat at the top of the stairs while Milo ate at the bottom so that "smokie could be boss" was causing all sorts of issues as Smokie had always eaten at the bottom and from what I could see had no desire to be top dog anyway, despite the feelings of failure it left with her owner. I haven't actually been in contact with this new family since we left the park the other day, they have been speaking to the rescue. I would be interested to actually see what was happening though, to see if things are indeed as bad as what they are saying. Molly is a very well adjusted dog, on the submissive side but not fearful, and Logan has never shown himself to be a bully. Molly is used to having other dogs coming and going without any issues so this is rather uncharacteristic for her. To begin with they were paying a lot of attention to Logan so that he would feel comfortable which may have contributed to jealousy on Molly's part. They had put Molly outside so they could have cuddles with Logan etc. From memory he got hardly any attention from me the first few days he was here, I picked him up late at night and he spent the next day in a crate at a flyball comp. I always try to treat new fosters exactly how I plan to for the duration of the stay. No point in giving them heaps of attention the first few days then suddenly cutting back, they seem to find their feet much easier if I am consistent. It is also easier for the existing dogs if the new one isn't receiving extra attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berocca Posted August 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 I'm guessing he did so well in your house because you naturally have more rules and structure by virtue of having multiple dogs. Yeh that's what I was trying to get at, just didn't phrase it properly. My dogs also don't bother with the attention sulky stuff as they know it will get them nowhere. In this case, the lady has actually crawled under the bed with Molly and started patting her and talking softly to her. I can see that hamster running through her head at top speed- "if I'm not getting the pats I want, I just have to hide under the bed. He gets thrown outside and mum comes and joins me..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 I agree with Erin, it sounds as though Logan has been getting too much freedom too soon. From reading other very successful multi dog owners and how their introductions went, I'd say that the owners need to get back into a business as usual mentality, get Logan on NILIF and a lot more structured - not left out in the yard on his own at all, and treat Molly the way they've always treated her. Logan is supposed to be fitting into their lives, and it sounds as if the set up is too loose for him to clearly know what to expect and for Molly to feel safe. Snarking is not allowed at my house. I use distraction and physically placing myself between the snarkers and then separation. Depending on the need that I perceive, (and that has changed as the dogs have grown older and have health issues that need to be accomodated, I'm talking here about young, healthy dogs) everyone gets to do a round of doggy push ups, or I may put someone else in another room, or do a lightning round of cues, one dog after another being asked to lie down, give a paw, go away, grab a basket, whatever. One behavior per dog, then on to the next dog. Gets each dog focused on me and not on each other. It's a strategy that has developed over time and it works well for us. Shoshone is obsessed with Samantha and used to stare/stalk her, and on a couple occasions, went for her. I don't allow the staring at all any more ever. I call her name, make her change position, etc. I also don't allow Samantha to invade Shoshone's space. Hope the family can work this out so that Molly feels safe and Logan has a good sense of his boundaries. Ruth n the BC3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berocca Posted August 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2008 He is back Well, kinda. I am at an agility camp this weekend and going away for a flyball comp next weekend so he is staying with someone else for a week until I can actually get him. Such a shame he didn't work out but he just wasn't the dog for these people. Fingers crossed he finds something soon and so do they. ETA: They actually spoke to a respected behaviouralist about their options and how to make things work so at least they were commited to trying. Unlike the people who returned their new border collie to us this weekend for being "too obedient- she is like a Stepford dog". WTF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted August 30, 2008 Report Share Posted August 30, 2008 To begin with they were paying a lot of attention to Logan so that he would feel comfortable which may have contributed to jealousy on Molly's part. They had put Molly outside so they could have cuddles with Logan etc. Thats a really good way to tell a dog that he's running the show. If he is naturallly dominent, it was probably like, "cool, I am the boss" for Logan. With a dog like that you really need rules and boundries from the get go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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