Strange New Behavior

[DTrain]

My best dog Pete has developed a strange new behavior. When I say he is my best dog, he is 4 and an excellent herding and goose dog and up until the past couple of weeks he has been the most docile and gentle dog ever. BUT, in the past couple of weeks he has started barking and lunging at people who approach him. I have never seen even a hint of this with him before. You may have read my post, a couple of weeks ago a newspaper ran an article on my dogs and our goose work and the dogs became an instant hit. Since then people come up to us all the time to meet the dogs and of course they want to pet them which they are very good with. People commented on how well trained and behaved the dogs are. People asked for training advise and Pete has become the local example of the perfect dog. At about this same time this situation with Pete began to develop. At first it was only the odd person but now it is almost everybody. This is very bad news for my goose business. Pete is my best public relations dog and I am beginning to wonder how far I can trust him in public situations off-leash. I have come down on Pete hard and I have made up excuses for him but the truth is I have no idea what to do about this and it makes me very nervous. If you can help, please jump in. The thread about the promotion is in this section under promote your dog currently on page 3.

[Tranquilis]

I got the distinct impression that you're a bit ambivalent about the new-found celebrity of your dogs, and that you've been approached by some fairly... Well, odd people at times. Is it possible that Pete is reading uneasiness from you, and reacting defensively?

[DTrain]

I got the distinct impression that you're a bit ambivalent about the new-found celebrity of your dogs, and that you've been approached by some fairly... Well, odd people at times. Is it possible that Pete is reading uneasiness from you, and reacting defensively?

 

Interesting comment, I am a little nervous about the attention the dogs are getting. Most people are just fine of course but I have had a few odd people approach. I am very protective of the dogs and I am always on the watch for someone or something that could do harm to them. I have a concern that someone could steal them. However, do you think Pete could be that sensitive. Could this new behavior be defensive, I had not thought of that. I do however get the feeling that when Pete does this he means business.

[Tranquilis]

However, do you think Pete could be that sensitive. Could this new behavior be defensive, I had not thought of that. I do however get the feeling that when Pete does this he means business.

In my (limited) experience, BCs, especially the dogs that are really good at working, tend to be very sensitive to body language - I think there's a distinct possibility that he's reading you for cues. Mind you, I'm a relative novice, and haven't watched the dynamic between you and Pete, but I'd investigate this, at least to eliminate it as cause, if for no other reason. And yeah, if Pete's on the defense, you can count on him to mean business.

 

I find that with Suka, how I react, is how she reacts. By changing my posture, I can change her attitude.

[Shetlander]

Another possibility (one among many, I'm sure) is the people themselves are approaching the dog differently. Maybe they are more forward, acting more like they"know" the dog than they usually do with a dog they've never met. That could be bugging him.

[DTrain]

There is a pattern to this. When people approach generally Pete starts out calm. Of course the people want to talk and often times they stand back just outside of leash range. Some will approach with caution and perhaps they are somewhat nervous. Things go along fine for a moment and all of a sudden he will begin to bark and lunge. He never has barked immediately upon their approach. Many people will walk right up and begin to pet him which he seems fine with but can I trust him. It is beginning to make me very nervous. I do not have a clue how I would go about fixing this problem.

[Tea]

I hesitate to offer advice but I can tell you my own story.

 

I browse sheep loose. On dirt roads sometimes people will come up to them.

I have taught my dogs to ignore these strangers.

 

This is because it interfers with my work. So I politely say, the dogs are working please allow them to do their job.

 

No dog is perfect. Neither are we...... Its ok

 

Gunny hides from strangers, unless she's working now she knows that no one will be allowed to bother her.

 

Cap hates to be petted on the back end, an old thermometer phobia.

 

I found that out when a stranger casually walked in to pet his rump and he didn't like it and scooted forward. But now he knows I will not let anyone pet him while he is working and he is more comfortable.

(For some odd reason I didn't think I needed to tell someone not to pet a dog thats working? Or run in amounst 50 head of ewes with their lambs)

 

At the cabin, if Cap wants to approach guests thats fine but I give both dogs a choice.

 

When browsing sheep, If a stranger is coming up fast. I tell the dogs to lie down and ignore them.

Then I ask the person to not approach the dogs.

 

If a stranger is stationary I tell the dogs.....'on by'. Like my sled team.

 

But I keep them working which is what they want to do, and it keeps me calmer too. A stranger approaching a flock of sheep quickly can cause some problems.

 

But I have learned just to explain to folks, let my dogs do their job, then the people can watch at a distance and my dogs are comfortable.

[Shetlander]

I think Tea makes a very good point about managing the situation and protecting the dog and people from each other. I probably give my Lhasa a bum rap by always expecting the worst from him but at least I am only ever pleasantly surprised by his good behavior rather than appalled by his rare but persistent incidents of being unfriendly. At any rate, I run a lot of interference between people who see an adorable little teddy bear of a dog and a dog who sees the general public as nothing but a bother. I understand that you face a very different challenge since you are out in public working your dog and it's a challenge that is more urgent because it could possibly affect your livelihood. I'd still do what I could to discourage people approaching him.

 

It's really risky to try to offer effective and safe training advice on this kind of problem over the Internet, especially without even seeing the dog, much less knowing him. A couple of thoughts though....

 

First, I would want a vet to take a look at him to see if there is a medical reason for the sudden change in behavior.

 

If everything showed up fine with the vet, I'd seek out a good trainer or behaviorist. I know finding the right one can be a challenge, but it sounds like you need some expert help here.

 

Weren't you having some issues with your youngest dog? It may have been more of a distraction issue than acting defensive towards people. But did you find someone to help you with that problem?

[sweet_ceana]

Poke will still react on leash if I get nervous around a random person. He will bark at whomever is making me feel uncomfortable. If I am comfortable and not stressed he does fine. I do not walk him alone at night or in any not so good-ish areas (in phoenix 1 block can be a great area, and the next can be a place you do not go at night, so long walks inevitably can take you through all sorts of places) anymore. My own aprehension is what fuels his leash reactivity. That aprehension is often I am so worried he is going to react that he knows that I am worried when that person is near and then he does react. Poke's problem is 75% me and 25% he does not like the restraint of a leash. (off leash my boy is great.)

 

I would not be surprised if your dog is just taking cues from you.

[bcnewe2]

Isn't Pete one of the dogs that is having diarrhea and upset tummy issues? Have you gotten that sorted out, is he finished with his meds? Could be the meds causing a reaction, even one that just gives him an upset tummy? Or maybe the illness is taking it's toll and he's doing all he can to work so any extra stress might be sending him over the edge?

I'd be getting his thyroid checked and for some reason, maybe just cause Mick suffered so long and hard going undiagnosed (even though I had taken him to several vets) with TBD's that each time I read your posts about them not feeling well it makes me want to say, have you checked them for TBD's? I know their symptoms are not normal for TBD's but the intermittent coming and going is maybe what makes me think that.

I'm paranoid of tick diseases and worm issues tend to send me over the edge of nightmares. I know parasites aren't that bad but they just give me the heebee geebees.

I've also seen Mick who is immune compromised from his TBD's really feel like crap if he's only carrying a small load of even tape worm. Don't know if the issues are related but I can always tell by his work when he's not feeling good.

For some reason I think Pete is stressed more than you know and this is just one more thing he doesn't need.

 

I'd go with Tea's idea of telling people he's working and needs to be left alone or just say he isn't feeling well and a bit grumpy. Don't you work 2 dogs at once? Can't you use the other one as the go between or the buffer?

 

I think being well trained doesn't mean he has to like everyone he meets. I would expect him to tolerate strangers, but not expect him to take being loved on and mauled each time he's out working.

 

Good luck and keep us posted.

Kristen

[Tranquilis]

I think being well trained doesn't mean he has to like everyone he meets. I would expect him to tolerate strangers, but not expect him to take being loved on and mauled each time he's out working.

Problem he's facing, though, is that he has to work his dogs in close proximity to the public, and can't always control what the public will do. The dogs need to be as close to bullet-proof as possible.

[DTrain]

Shetlander, I still have the issues with the youngest dog and doing my best to work through it, I have been given some good advise on the board and Dave is not as bad as he was.

Ceana, part of the problem now is me being very nervous about the dogs being approached. Last night a was walking three dogs when four young people approached. They had no interest in the dogs but I got the dogs off the sidewalk and away from them. Sure enough when they were close Pete started barking and lunging and then Dave. Mac as usual just ignored the whole situation. Two people walking a dog on the other side of the street passed us and away they went again. I came down on Pete hard and just in case this is a situation where Pete has lost it a bit I will keep on him. I have in mind that Pete is a ranch and stock dog. He has never been exposed to anything like he is now. He may be nervous in this situation but perhaps his disipline has slipped a little also.

Tranquilis is right, the dogs need to be absolutely bullet proof and when I ask for something I need it without hesitation. I do not always have the luxury of keeping them away from other people and in my line of work the expectation is that when someone approaches for whatever reason the dogs accept it completely. It may be tough but without this they are finished and cannot work in public. They all get plenty of play and free time and tons of attention and positive input from me. It is not nice to say or even think but when they are in public it is mandatory that they are perfect machines.

The dogs are going back to the Vet today. Nothing was indicated in Petes tests from a couple of weeks ago but just to be certain we will check again. They have been on meds and we are treating them blindly but I still believe something is wrong and Pete may well be stressed more than we know.

This week ( Thursday ) I have a series of demonstrations of goose work to do for some regional authorities and if the dogs are not perfect my business could end. I expect errors in their field work and the vast majority of people may not even notice but to be lunging and barking at people will end my work. If the dogs are distracted in any way it could end my work and Pete as highly trained and as amazing as he is on stock becomes nothing more than a house pet. I will put him back on a ranch in southern Alberta before I will let that happen.

[1sheepdoggal]

I would love to be helpful here, but I first have to ask, did you say you train dogs, Border Collies in particular? It seems for a trainer, you have a very small grasp on behavior and how a dog reacts to stress, and I wonder if in fact the dogs main problem isnt that you may be putting them in posistions they are not yet capable of being comfortable in. I recall you said in an earlier post, that these dogs were not all that well socialized before you moved because of the fact that you lived out in the sticks prior to the move to the city. Time frame wise, it feels to me like these dogs have just about taken all they are willing or capable of handling at the moment, and perhaps you need to back them off, and let them absorb and relax a bit. What they have gone through and are going through is a lot for a dog to absorb all at once and daily. Coupled with the fact that the person at the end of the leash is having some personal fear that is possibly transferring itself through to the end of the leash. Really, I promiss Im not trying to be so critical, in as much as I am looking at it from the dogs POV. Not knowing or seeing the dogs of course, I could be well off base, but perhaps they just need a bit more time to be a little more slowly integrated into city life. The saying less is more, could help your dogs right now. It may even help with thier physical problems as well. Stress does tend be rather typical of the problems you are having there as well. It just seems to me, what with all I have read up to now, that recently. there has been one behavior or physical problem after another, and I think your dogs may be trying to tell you some thing, and that is that they arent comfortable and it is starting to manifest itself in behavior and physical problems. It may not be some thing that can be seen by a vet or cured by meds, and so far it seems they check out OK according to your vet that way already. You may just need to look a little deeper. Good luck with them.

[DTrain]

Yes, I am a trainer. I train border collies for herding. A little rude perhaps but I have taken dogs including mine to situations and levels of stress that they have not been comfortable with many times. Taking a dog to stock the first time can be stressful, it goes with the territory. I have however not ever put a dog in a situation they could not or did not want to handle and forced the issue. I may not be an expert in behavior but I do have some common sense. The guy at the end of this leash may well be stressed but he does think. What I don't know I find out and that is one of the reasons I am on this board, some people on this board are experts far beyond me. HOWEVER, thanks for your observations and you do make a good point. This situation is new to the dogs and I fully understand how they can be stressed. I have not forced them along and I have given them plenty of time off. In fact I wonder if I have given them too much time off, too much time away from stock and have been a little soft on them, quite the opposite of what you are thinking. I am wondering if they are telling me that they need more to do, they need to work and they need to get back to their former level of activity. Believe me in the past few months since we moved I have been very careful to bring the dogs along slowly and allow them to adjust. The dogs have been through a lot and far too many bad things have popped up but I am doing my best to find out how and why. You are correct, many of the things that have been happening could very well be stress related ( I am beginning to suspect they are ) and that is a very good observation, thanks for paying attention to my posts as I work through all of this. The dogs will be at the vet again today and if I get another report that there is nothing wrong with them I am going to change their lifestyle a little. I am going to treat them as has been suggested and that will work on the physical problem if their is one and I am going to increase their level of activity and work. In Daves case I believe he has fear aggression and I am working on that. This aggressive behavior with Pete however is new. Up until now Pete has been one of the most approachable dogs I have ever seen but all of a sudden he has changed. The only changes I can account for in Petes life is that he works less and is exposed especially since the newspaper article to far more people. We are currently in a food transition to a much higher quality food. It is strange that his new behavior started at about the same time as the food change but I am tied of guessing. He may well be trying to back everyone off and he may well be reading my stress and responding. Pete has gone from loner hard working stock dog to something of a celebrity and I can fully understand how this could stress him. Frankly I would rather be working the farm with Pete every day and I am sure he feels the same. Working geese in a public setting is new to Pete and of course very different from stock work on miles of open ranch. If he gets a clean bill of health again I am going to increase his work load and let him do what he was bred to do and loves to do. I am going to do my best to keep Pete away from as many people as I can but on the other hand he is going to need to adjust or I cannot continue my goose work. We also now have been given the opportunity to work with the public and help train dogs and dog owners. Pete is considered to be the perfect dog and a pillar of the dog community but he cannot do this work if he is show aggressive behavior.

[Tea]

Again I hesitate to offer advice. Maybe I do not grasp your situation fully, I am sorry about that. I am assuming you are working in a park with crowds of people around?

 

I can only comment on my own experiences.

 

It seems for me that when I worry about a job, because of money issues it makes it very difficult for me to do that job.

 

When I am doing my work if I am tense or nervous about what will happen, I need to go back and train myself and whatever animal I am working with at a simpler level. And realize it is not the end of the world, but just more training needed.

 

This can be hard for me as I need to pay my bills etc. But it is essential.

 

I have not worked many dogs on leashes, or long ropes, I have seen the dogs are sometimes more tense when

on leashes. Perhaps because they know that they cannot get away. (I am not a dog trainer.)

 

Sometimes I can influence outside situations sometimes I cannot.

 

(As when two loose Rottweilers approached my flock on a dirt road with no person in sight.)

 

Sometimes I just must accept the way things are. (the above situation was a mess.)

 

Sitting on an onery pony helps with loose rottweilers. And little Cap became Cujo the killer sheep dog. (I was lucky I didn't lose him. But there is risk in everything. And that is part of his job.)

 

Maybe some dogs just don't like working with alot of people around. Thats ok......My Pop always said, train a horse for a job he will be successful at.

 

I think you are doing everything you can.

[DTrain]

We took all three dogs to the vet yesterday and again, nothing. There again appears to be nothing wrong with Pete. However, it was noted that Pete's sudden change in behavior may be as a result of a number of factors that could be related to medications and or things that he has injested, there could be a chemical imbalance going on and, something we had not considered, Pete may be having a change in hearing. We have decided to detox Pete and carefully observe him. We sent blood samples off to check for toxins. I will be keeping a diary of Pete every day for some time. Pete will now be on a different food and off medications unless it is absolutely required. We discussed in detail Petes recent history and several things that I had not given much thought to came to light. Pete has been less active and attentive in the past few weeks. Often when I speak to him I need to repeat myself several times before I get a response and several times he has not taken commands without repeating. We are looking into his hearing. It was noted that every time Pete has become aggressive with people that approach they are speaking. Pete does not appear to have an ear infection but that does not rule out a change in hearing. Pete has been somewhat clumsy in the past few weeks and I chalked this up to terrain, slippery wet ground etc. but a number of times he has appeared to me to be off balance. His stamina seems to be a little down but I chalked this up to lack of activity. Pete has been in many new places and is inclined to eat vegetation and perhaps could have picked up something. It is interesting to take a hard look at little things that sometimes we do not pay much attention to. Pete could be stressed because something has changed in him. While we are working on these things we are going to keep Pete away from people as much as we can and I will continue to work with him as much as I can. I am going to work to attempt to reduce my stress level about being approached. Hopefully in the next couple of weeks we can rule out and or treat any problem Pete may have and get to the bottom of this.

[bc4ever]

Praying for a good outcome for Pete. Sounds scary. Waiting for the test results is unnerving, to say the least. I know you'll keep us updated.

[juliepoudrier]

I forget, but did you ever check for tick-borne diseases? If not, you should.

 

J.

[DTrain]

Hi Guys, it is scary. Pete is not only a great stock and trials dog and the best goose dog I have ever seen, I just plain love this guy. I just got off the phone, we are back to the Vet on Thursday afternoon. I am at something of a disadvantage because we bought Pete and know very little really about his medical history and Pete could have been into anything on the ranch and feed lot in southern Alberta. Will keep you updated.

[mbc1963]

It is really scary. I do absolutely agree that a change in his physical condition could lead to this change. I can tell when my dog doesn't feel well; the first and most obvious sign is increased aggression or reactivity when we're out on walks. I noticed this before his limp when he had Lyme disease. Now, if he's acting grouchy, I immediately assume he's not feeling well.

 

Mary

[lrayburn]

I came down on Pete hard and just in case this is a situation where Pete has lost it a bit I will keep on him. I have in mind that Pete is a ranch and stock dog. He has never been exposed to anything like he is now. He may be nervous in this situation but perhaps his disipline has slipped a little also.

 

DTrain,

If Pete really is stressed, "coming down hard" on him is only likely to further his stress and anxiety. Stress and anxiety are not the same thing as lack of discipline. Even the most disciplined dog can be pushed to a point where his trained behaviors break down in the face of stress. He is also feeding off of your stress and the behavior of your younger dog.

 

You may want to take Pete and the younger dog out separately for non-work experiences where you can use some positive reinforcement to improve their comfort level with people. This gives Pete an opportunity to meet people without feeding off the younger dog's response. It also gives you an opportunity to work on your emotional response to these situations (because you can just be a person walking their dog, not a professional working). With smart driven working dogs, you may only need several positive experiences for your dogs to view the general public as part of the scenery, rather than as a threat.

 

Also, there is nothing wrong with telling the public not to approach the dogs. I tell people that all the time - not just with my little fear aggressive dog but also with puppies in training and adult dogs working on new behaviors.

FWIW,

Lisa

[DTrain]

We are looking deeper into Pete's problem and he is back at the Vet on Thursday. I have also re-evaluated or approach to the public. Although it is great public relations in some ways and very good promotion. Many good things have come from it but, my first concern is for my own dogs. Since the dogs love to work we are going to focus more on work. I have perhaps put Pete into a situation he is not comfortable with. Pete is a stock dog, a farm boy who perhaps does not want to be bothered with other people, he just wants to do his job. The vast majority of people who approach us are nice and well meaning but most just want to tell me a story about how there dog ( usually a BC cross of some sort ) is a great herding dog and the story goes on and on. I will do my best to inform the public and do good work but I am going to cut most of the public off who approach us and I am going to keep Pete away from most of it. I think it would do Pete, the other dogs and myself good to just shut up and work.

[bc4pack]

In the trips to the vet have you had thyroid checked and checked for tick borne diseases?

 

Proximity sensitivity aka 'space' issues can be common in BCs...although you probably know that but

if y'all have been meeting increasing numbers of people< I think that would definitely play into it. Stress is cumulative.

 

Have you read Jean Donaldson's Culture Clash?

 

And here's a site you may find helpful

http://www.aggressivebehaviorsindogs.com

 

you may also find some helpful stuff on http://www.fearfuldogs.com

 

All boils down to making 'friendly strangers' something very good in you dogs life. Working underthreshold. It does help to figure out what triggers the behavior specifically but it isn't always necessary if you have a 'good idea'

Anytime any aggressive behaviors come on fairly suddenly you know the first thing to do is eliminate any medical reasons first.

You may want to send blood off to Dr Jean Dodds for thyroid. Maybe an ortho check?

 

 

 

 

HTH.

[DTrain]

We will be checking tomorrow on tick borne problems. By this weekend I hope to have a final answer one way or the other on Pete's medical condition and be able to link anything negative but that would be easy. I bought Pete so I am not exactly sure how he was trained and there could be something in that but I may never know. I am researching as many books as I can that would be helpful, your suggestions have been helpful and I have a hint at least in part as to what may be going on with Pete if he does not have a medical condition. This situation is scary and frustrating but i always tend to look for a positive. This situation has forced me to know more and that is a good thing. When we get through this and if nothing else comes of it at least Pete will have a much better informed owner and working partner.

[DTrain]

It has been suggested to me that I should try a zinc and omega supplement for my oldest dog who has had skin problems for years. Does anyone have any experience with this. Thanks.