Pedigree Dogs Exposed, from the BBC

[jdarling]

"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh*t."

 

They just kept throwing up smokescreen after smokescreen and never really answered anything. Simply amazing.

[Denise Wall]

Well, they certainly make it sound good don't they? We see how well it's working for them though having seen the judges, breeders and winners at Crufts, their showcase of the best.

 

What they say they're doing to help is the same as the conformation mentality in general IMO -- they're only interested in something that *looks* like it may work, not something that actually works.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I always bought the "bull-fighting face" fantasy about bulldogs too, until I met someone who is into AmBulls, one of the oft-scorned attempts to moderate bulldog type (and oft-abused by BYBs). They pointed out, "that's all very nice about breathing when holding on to the bull's face - but first, bull baiting wasn't about latching on - it was about biting and getting the heck out of there before you got smashed to jelly! Second, breathing while latching on wouldn't do much good if you can't breathe before you get there, or any other time!"

 

I'm astonished to find how many of these fantasies I've bought into, even though I'm a history buff. They are trying to do it to the Border Collie, by the way. The first step is when they start with the phrase, "The origins of the breed are lost in the mists of time," or some such bull hockey. The decisions that created the Border Collie breed are well-documented, but they choose to ignore the stuff that doesn't fit their aesthetic values.

[Lenajo]

RDM the "ridge" often ends with a tiny opening directly into the spine. A "fault"...and a deadly one. That would explain how the bone fungus got in. Occassionally we will also see this in humans - a "closed" spina bifida that isn't diagnosed until adulthood.

 

I think in another breed it would just be an abnormal whorl of hair- depending on the severity.

 

Does anyone know if the ridge is always characteristic of spina bifida? By which I mean, if it made itself present in another breed, would that be what it was?

 

I ask because years ago some friends bought a yellow lab puppy off a BYB and the pup had a ridge like the Ridgies do. I presume this is even why they picked him. He was plagued with health problems throughout his life, including eventually being euthanized for a really rare bone fungus that he picked up in Arizona that their other lab did not ever become affected by.

[airbear]

From another list that I troll frequent, I was given this link: How to Judge the Border Collie. My understanding is that this person is an AKC judge, as well as a breeder of those do-it-all collies. Some highlights:

• a well-pigmented dog is less likely to suffer sunburn (to justify the section on colour and markings)
  
• the white tip on the end of a tail carried in an upward swirl has a purpose... It is known as the "shepherd's lantern" because many times the tip of a tail would be all that would lead the shepherd home in the dark after a long day's work.
  
• only a dog with a well-angulated, sound front will be able to crouch in true Border Collie fashion
  
• herding instinct and ability cannot be assessed in the conformation ring, but the physical qualities that allow the dog to work can be. <-- yeah, that about sums it up
  

So don't feel bad that you bought into the underbite-bull-holding thing, or the long-ears-traps-scent-in-wrinkles thing. Apparently it happens with all breeds! Now I have to go dye my dog, except for the tip of his tail, which I rely on during power outages.

[DebC]

Oh. My. God.

I watched all 6 parts, and at the end I didn't know what to do first - cry or vomit.

I am so naive! I mean, I knew about GSD's and that they were nowhere near their original conformation. The poor things can hardly walk, don't feed me that BS about needing to be like that to 'perform their job'! I wanted to slug that idiot.

But the others - I had no idea about the RRidgebacks - I thought that was just a hair whorl. Why would you purposely breed such a defect into an animal? Those people are deluded. I think some of them actually believe what they are saying - they actually think they are doing the best for the breeds.

Why?? It has to be for the money and power in the club, do you think?

I didn't watch the KC response because I haven't got nearly enough BP meds - I would probably stroke out.

 

I thought I 'understood' why the Border Collie shouldn't be included in the AKC - wow are my eyes really open now.

Such a shame!

Perfectly good and useful dogs, reduced to pretty toys for people to show off.

I need to go hug my dog now.

[Tranquilis]

I always bought the "bull-fighting face" fantasy about bulldogs too, until I met someone who is into AmBulls, one of the oft-scorned attempts to moderate bulldog type (and oft-abused by BYBs). They pointed out, "that's all very nice about breathing when holding on to the bull's face - but first, bull baiting wasn't about latching on - it was about biting and getting the heck out of there before you got smashed to jelly! Second, breathing while latching on wouldn't do much good if you can't breathe before you get there, or any other time!"

I'd long thought that the bowlegged, exagerated Old English Bulldog was in part an artifact of attempts to take what was, effectively, the premier fighting dog of its day (think "pitt bull"*) and tone it down into a family dog, mostly by breeding for reduced activity, rather than reduced aggression - i.e. a dog that was too lazy to attack, rather than one that didn't want to. I'd also bought into the nose-biting myth, until I met my first AmBull. The guy across the street (owner of one of the Rude Dogs) is a BYB, verging close to hobby breeder,** of AmBulls, and has a pretty smart bitch*** who is the very spitting image of that 1850's Old English Bulldog shown in the PDE documentary. All of a sudden, having met him, and his dogs, I had a whole new outlook on the Old English Bulldog.

 

Yeah, she's got a slightly receeding nose, but she's also got a clean scissors bite, and can breath. On top of which, she's agile, has clean, strong limbs, a well-proportioned body, and is active - *very* active. At nine years, she's as active as a yearling.

 

With that as a comparison, the snuffly, waddling, keg-headed OE Bulldog suddenly looks... Well, crippled.

 

 

 

* Ironically, I'm begining to see what people *claim* are pibbles, but are taking on the look of an over-tall OE Bulldog - Exagerated wide stance, over-muscled/muscle-bound, cartoonishly large-headed, and so on. One more dog being bred into oblivion, the long, slow way.

 

** He talks a good game - He actually knows quite a few things about breeding, and plans his litters carefully, but is careless about training, and doesn't provide papers, guarantees, or health checks. His stud is one of the Rude Dogs. Fortunately, his dogs are also people-focused and dog-friendly, or they'd be a menace.

 

*** I'd happily take her into my house - Of his dogs, she's the best; sweet, gentle, healthy, and playful.

[Wendy V]

Just got through watching the show - yikes! Since this issue was raised in the program, does the ABCA prohibit registration of father/daughter (mother/son) or brother/sister breedings? Is this not of potential concern for border collies?

 

(I apologize if this was asked already. I did not read through all posts.)

[vanillalove]

Now I have to go dye my dog, except for the tip of his tail, which I rely on during power outages.

 

:D

 

I have read through all the posts, but I didn't see anything about any Border Collie registrations and their policies on that. I might have missed it though. I would also like to know that, do the ABCA or the CBCA allow dogs from those breedings to be registered?

 

The images of the Cav's in pain and the GSD's hardly being able to walk are imbedded in my mind. I can't believe the Kennel Club still deny they don't place conformation over health. Freaks.

[Kate@JIm]

I haven't watched the whole series yet, but enough to be appalled. Years ago we wanted a Cavalier king Charles Spaniel. We researched and knew about heart problems and contacted a breeder, she said " we did have one Cavalier without heart problems but couldn't breed her because of the wrong color". - We never did find a healthy Cavalier.

 

I will forward to KC people I know. I also forwarded it to my Veterinarian friend.

Thank-you for posting this.

 

Kate

[Lenajo]

I have read through all the posts, but I didn't see anything about any Border Collie registrations and their policies on that. I might have missed it though. I would also like to know that, do the ABCA or the CBCA allow dogs from those breedings to be registered?

 

They don't, and imo they should not stoop to that level of interference. Frankly you can far higher co-efficients of inbreeding than those politically incorrect breedings with "linebreeding". Basically breedings that many here would appear to consider outcrossing and "normal". For example the COI on father/daughter mating is 25%, but the result of a dog I had with 3 sets of common great great grandparents, plus some additional line breeding behind that was 67%. The general public would consider that dog "ok", yet the much safer breeding was the f/d one. Coincidentally that dog (a non-BC but a working dog) was sane, sound, lived to be above the average of the breed (he was 14 when he died) and produced extremely well. Of course that was an inbreeding on real *function* - in that case herding.

 

If the registries were to create a policy, the COI over at least 12 generations would be the point, not what dogs in what relationship were mated.

 

Inbreeding father/daughter in *dogs* is just another breeding decision. In humans it is a social and ethical taboo that according to my Sociology professor simply the result of confusion in legal relationships and inheritance laws. That is until you reached very high COI - i.e. the Egyptians and the European kings.

 

Again, what is going wrong with the KC dogs is the breeding for a form only, and typically a form that is either a deformity or part of a deformity, because of human visual appeal, money, or whatever foo foo reason. You can breed any dog you want, to the most unrelated dogs on the planet, but both with same deformity and you will produce more the deformity; effectively backing yourself into the corner of Hell you, but the dogs' don't, deserve.

 

It doesn't take inbreeding. It just takes Stupid witha Dash of Delusion and a Sprinkling of Cruel.

 

I reference this article in another topic Read it and it covers, fairly I believe, a lot of what are talking about.

[doggietrio]

You can breed any dog you want, to the most unrelated dogs on the planet, but both with same deformity and you will produce more the deformity; effectively backing yourself into the corner of Hell you, but the dogs' don't, deserve.

 

It doesn't take inbreeding. It just takes Stupid witha Dash of Delusion and a Sprinkling of Cruel.

 

This is so true. The most unhealthy dog I owned was a mixed breed dog. Aussie/Golden mix.

 

His COI would have been essentially 0%...he had HD, auto immune issues, early onset arthritis, a lumbar sacral deformity and a couple of other things that may, or may not be genetically caused/influenced - like spondlyosis and 2 CL ruptures.

 

He was an amazing dog for sure, but I cringe when I hear "mutts are always the healthiest" and the only thing that matters is a low COI. For those that think a low COI is the end-all-be-all, I tell them the BINGO story. If BINGO = genetic disease A, and I breed a dog that has the BIN to one that has the GO, I could end up with BINGO and the disease I was trying to avoid. Where, had I linebred BIN to BIN - I can't have BINGO... Of course, over time, I might get other genetic "scrabble" losses by continually in/linebreeding - so, in/linebreeding should be done with caution (as, quite frankly should any breeding).

 

I take the highly unpopular opinion...if you're going to breed dogs, you need to do so without emotion, breed for function, and cull hard (culling can be s/n not always euthanizing).

 

Jennifer Akins

Trowbridge, CA

[juliepoudrier]

Jennifer,

I think one problem with your argument that mutts aren't healthier is that a cross of two purebred dogs is in my mind not a true mutt. Mutts are the dogs that were around when I was growing up in the 60s and 70s--the "Heinz 57s" who were a multiple mix of doG knows what. I think those sorts of dogs do represent hybrid vigor and probably are less likely to exhibit the genetic issues that plague purebreds. I think that crossing one purebred dog whose breed has known genetic problems with another that has its own set of genetic problems might get you a healthy dog (mutt) or it might get you a dog with a double dose of bad genetics, which seems to be the case with your golden/aussie cross.

 

Note that I'm not arguing that COIs of 0 vs. some higher number are either good or bad. My favorite working dogs come from a line that was linebred carefully and the dogs from that line pretty much carry specific working traits I like because of the linebreeding practices. As you said, done carefully, in/linebreeding is not an awful thing.

 

J.

[jdarling]

FYI: I clicked on the link to the video and got this message:

 

This video has been removed due to terms of use violation.

 

If anyone knows where the BBC videos are available to view, please let me know.

 

Thanks!

Jodi

[airbear]

It doesn't take inbreeding. It just takes Stupid witha Dash of Delusion and a Sprinkling of Cruel.

Amen!

 

One of the truly most frightening dog conversation I've had was with a spaniel breeder, who described her breeding program as "painting with genetics". She told me that dog breeding is an art, and her pups are her canvas (I'M NOT KIDDING!!!).

 

From what I could tell, her line had temperment issues, allergies to pretty much everything, a weird leathery problem with the ears that apparently has a name, a tendency to get warts, and myriad other charms. They also couldn't hunt and couldn't swim. But they embodied her vision of the perfect spaniel - I think it was Springer - and I believe she has waiting lists for her pups. Sigh.

[Lenajo]

who described her breeding program as "painting with genetics".

 

So basically she paints in flesh and blood. We put people like that in special little rooms with padded walls usually.

[MickeyDogs]

I almost stopped watching at segment one – incredibly hard to watch those dog suffer - but it was so compelling I watched them all.

 

Sad, so very sad.

[Denise Wall]

FYI: I clicked on the link to the video and got this message:

If anyone knows where the BBC videos are available to view, please let me know.

 

Thanks!

Jodi

 

Try this:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqYxvlfxvnk

 

The BBC must be pulling these as they find them.

[Denise Wall]

Some of the arguments being made here in favor if inbreeding are the same ones used by the KC people. Look where that's getting them.

 

For those who would like to explore the case against inbreeding further, an excellent source with top notch information can be found here:

 

http://www.canine-genetics.com/Default.htm

[vanillalove]

I'm not putting all the blame on inbreeding, I was just curious as to our own breed's policies on it and such.

 

Heinz 57's! I grew up with one named Sasha who lived next door to me as a kid, she was probably the coolest dog on the planet.

[Lenajo]

You breed for dysfunctional, you get it. You can blame inbreeding, doG, whatever you want. What it comes down to is what the breeder(s) wanted and what the club/show organization/public supported.

 

If you against inbreeding, period, you are against the purebred dog. You cannot have a "breed" of any species without deliberately breeding on specific, repetitive, genetics. That include the Border Collie.

 

So if you want a breed, you accept inbreeding. The difference between us and the KC mess is that we push this breed to maintain function that presents dysfunctional characteristics from becoming popular and accepted. You also keep the genepool open to any dog that provides acceptable skills that equal or best the current ones (which we already are).

 

So perhaps all this angst would be best put to how we can continue to keep this breed's current genepool as reasonable wide as possible without strongly infringing on personal rights? I was considering this last night....perhaps it would be worth it to have pedigree's marked if the inbreeding coefficient goes above a certain point? How about limits on the number of litters a sire can produce? (reducing popular sire effect which raises a lot of the COI over time, and creates futher bottlenecks in the genepool as it becomes difficult to find lines free of that dog. Never mind the disaster if that dog is found 2-3 decades later to be the source of a major problem. I.e. in horses the Impressive fiasco). Putting a cap on litters would also make breeding decisions a lot more important.

 

I was also pondering that the one thing that indicates the results of breeding/COI that even the public can understand is longevity. Most of the KC breeds first were tagged as a "problem" because their median age dropped for XYZ reasons. How would that be recorded and tracked? Impossible? I think that would be an advertisement point of value to any home interested in this breed - whether it be a farmer new to the breed, or an active pet home. People that would benefit from knowing yet don't have the sources an active trialing or long time stockdog user would have.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some of the arguments being made here in favor if inbreeding are the same ones used by the KC people. Look where that's getting them.

 

For those who would like to explore the case against inbreeding further, an excellent source with top notch information can be found here:

 

http://www.canine-genetics.com/Default.htm

[Denise Wall]

You breed for dysfunctional, you get it. You can blame inbreeding, doG, whatever you want. What it comes down to is what the breeder(s) wanted and what the club/show organization/public supported.

 

Again, I'm not talking about exaggerated phenotypes, although that does sometimes accompany or cause a genetic disease, such as the cavalier king charles spaniels who have a skull too small for their brain. I'm talking about extremely high percentages of genetic diseases in specific breeds and this _is_ _caused_ by inbreeding. It's not something you can know you're doing until it's done.

 

If you against inbreeding, period, you are against the purebred dog. You cannot have a "breed" of any species without deliberately breeding on specific, repetitive, genetics. That include the Border Collie

 

Inbreeding to establish a breed is only necessary in the beginning. The time where inbreeding is needed to maintain this breed has LONG passed. So, the statement that to be against inbreeding is to be against purebred dogs is false from my point of view. There is no reason not to use assortive mating (that is to breed dogs with characteristics one wants to those *unrelated* with characteristics one wants) to maintain working ability in the population of border collies we have now. Assortive mating is by far the healthier way to maintain the gene pool long term.

[Lenajo]

The time where inbreeding is needed to maintain this breed has LONG passed.

 

Is it? Why are we maintaining a purebred genepool of record then? We record ancestry, and talk about how they all go back to this dog, or that, or that. We look at how genetics have come forward - how much of this dog and that dog is in the background. If 6 crosses back to Telfer's Midge were "good" 20 generations back, do they not carry forward to current? Is it magically not an inbred genepool because you can't see it on the current pedigree?

 

Since dogs are so emotional a topic...lets look at it in cattle. Herefords were created from 8 foundation animals. You can add in genetics later based on function, but basically you still go back to the same 8. How many generations can you go before the 8 starter individuals are not of relavence? How many until you can advertise "outcrossed" stock to buyers? Can you ever? Can you only do it if you breed your purebred Hereford to an Angus and sell it as a Black Baldie?

 

I made several suggestions as to preventing the KC problems in our dogs at a registry level. What do you propose would help? I'm truly interested, because I've seen that inbreeding can recreate a quality <non-BC herding breed> worker, but if the rest of the genepool is shot it doesn't really make that much difference.

[Wendy V]

I find the the turn in this discussion quite interesting and I am grateful for both Denise's and Wendy's input. Both sides are well articulated and thought-provoking. I wish I had something to contribute, other than to say that I wish we could breed OUT epilepsy in the breed. I find it disheartening that it has become so common in the breed and present in all working lines. Don't mean to hijack; it is just an issue that hits close to home.

[vanillalove]

I find it disheartening that it has become so common in the breed and present in all working lines.

 

Really? All? I had no idea.