starting pup- insisting on a down

[Belleview]

Hey all-

 

When you are starting your pups, do you insist on a down being a down, or are you fairly lenient with a down command, or do you introduce or allow a stand?

 

My last several pups have been hard headed, hard chargers & a decent down was pretty much a must from the start. My latest project (8.5 mo old Matthew) is a different kind of pup for me- my first ever to have a truly natural cast & actually demonstrate some pace without me nagging "steady" til I'm hoarse. I'm a little worried, tho, that his good nature has made me lazy & I haven't made any effort to have put a down on him. I can stop him on balance pretty reliably with a "stand there" command & he seems quite willing to stand until I move off balance. Also happy to walk straight in.

 

So, would you let a pup stand, or would you train a down & insist on it when asked? Do you think that the pups who are schooled on a down as part of their early foundation training are better stoppers later on?

 

thoughts?

 

P.S. Yes, I bought Heather & Sally's "Top Trainers..." book, and looked forward to comparing the contributors' comments on this but it was borrowed away from me before I could crack it open!!!)

 

Lori Cunningham

Milton, PA

[Sue R]

Well, Lori, never a borrower or a lender be...

 

Other than to tease you about "losing" your book before you could read it, I have no worthwhile advice.

[1sheepdoggal]

If you can stop it now, I wouldnt be to insistant on a down, the pup is young, and you dont want to start screwing it down at such a young age. You can go back and put a down on it later.

[Pipedream Farm]

I like to teach them a down when they are young, but not the first few times on sheep. I try to only ask young dogs to down when it makes sense for them to do it (on balance). I think that reinforces them to trust your judgement when you ask for downs. All I really look for is a stop and then they get the sheep again right away so it almost becomes a game. From the dogs I've trained so far, I think the ones that got a down taught consistently and early were better stoppers later on. Some individuals will push a stop more than others though no matter what. As far as on their belly or just a stop depends on the individual dog --one that's always trying to take those extra steps will be one I'd be more likely to insist on a true down rather than just a stop.

Renee

[Shoofly]

I'd just leave him be if he's stopping and being good about it. If he starts creeping you can always put a proper down on later. I like to encourage a little cheekiness or disobedience in ones that are a little "too nice" to start with. Just my own preference.

[hsnrs]

If you can get your book back, you will see lots of opinions. I have read my book over and over again and am trying to be more lenient with my boy. He has a hard time pausing let alone stop and forget down. We are trying to go slow with him and just getting the feel of things. We are newbies and have Aussies. My girl downs really well and I'm happy with her work for now. Always room for improvement though. N

[rac]

I think you're doing fine by the way you describe it. When I begin stopping the dog I wait until things are fairly balanced up while we're 'close fetching' and the dog is not running too wild. I'm usually walking backwards at this point, so I'll slow down (maybe I'll stop) to slow/stop the sheep. Then I'll say, 'stand' to the dog and watch the dog's feet. When I get a 'moment of stillness' in the dog's feet (maybe just a fraction of a second but 'still' nonetheless) I begin backing up again giving the sheep back to the dog. This also gives me the perfect opportunity to introduce the 'walk-up' command. IOW I set up the 'stand' and 'walk-up' so it's the most logical thing for the dog to do at the time. This makes it easy. Never try to teach the dog to stop when it's off-balance and things aren't right. (IMO an off-balance stop is a different beast than an on-balance stop, and I usually teach this later a little at a time.)

 

I find that by teaching the 'stop' this way I never get into pissing contests about getting the dog to lie down in the presence of the sheep when it doesn't want to or can't. The work becomes the reward for doing it right. And the dog never develops an attitude about stopping because whenever it obeys it gets the sheep right back. Once you get the dog stopping reliably for that brief moment you simply gradually increase the time. AND I got away from 'lie down' after my first dog because all I want is for the dog to stop. I've learned to let the dog pick whether to stand or lie down, they usually know better. A handler probably uses the stop more than any other command. It's nice to teach this and build on it so the dog likes/doesn't mind doing it.

[juliepoudrier]

FWIW, I don't think Twist had a solid (if you can call it that) lie down on her till she was an adult. The joke was if you told her "lie down" she'd stand, and if you told her "stand" she'd lie down. Anyway, I agree with Robin.

 

J.

[blackacre]

For a different take, I like the advice our mutual friend gives (paraphrase):

"You need a solid down, but once you have it, use it sparingly i.e. don't use it unless you really need it."

That's worked pretty well for me, but then I wouldn't doubt that I don't follow it religiously--and may not even be aware of making exceptions.

Qualified opinion from an ineffectual autocrat,

A

[Little Bo Boop]

Or in the words of Herbert Holmes, (goes something like) "If you can't stop your dog, you must. If you can stop your dog you must not."

[Denise Wall]

Being the top rate competitor that you are, Lori, I would trust your own judgment. However, I'll give you my take on this just for a different view.

 

I don't care if they stand or have their belly on the ground. I don't bother with any distinctions there. I have in the past few years started the pups out with a "lie down" command that I'm somewhat lenient on as far as whether they show absolute obedience in every situation. An example would be if a sheep breaks and it would be too hard for the pup to not cover, I will opt for their natural instinct to over-ride my command. After they cover and feel more in control, I make them lie down/stand. This is pretty subjective though, depends on the dog, their level of training, and the situation. As they approach open level standard, I introduce a "stop" command, in which I expect them to stop dead each time I use it. Then, I occasionally use a "lie down" in situations where, like before, they are allowed a little discretion in whether they must absolutely take it or not. An example of where I would use a "lie down" in a fully trained dog would be at the pen, where they may be doing a better job of reading where they need to be than me and may slide a little more distance to the proper postion, despite being told to "lie down."

 

JMHO