Question about pack heirarchy

[Lunar]

I have always had dogs on the bed, but due to behavior problems with Zeeke we've had to institute a "no furniture" policy with him - he tends to get snarly and possessive when he's on the couch or bed, so he lost the priviledge.

 

However, I still like having Zoe up there with me. I love her snuggles, she likes to curl up at my feet on the couch and nap or chew on toys. She sleeps between my husband's and my feet on the bed at night.

 

So now my husband is worried that we're messing with their heirarchy. Zeeke is very clearly the dominant dog, she's the submissive one. She gets beat up on daily (in a playful fashion, though she does submit to him). The only time she gets snarky with him is over bones, she lets him know that hers is hers and he can go get his own or wait his turn. We recently gave them a big rawhide to chew on so she's been snarky with him more than usual, and I think this is what's making my husband worry.

 

So - does it matter? Will letting her on the bed but not him mess with anything between them? I'm inclined to think not, I certainly have not noticed any change (and in fact even when he was on the couch she tended to sleep on the back of the couch above him.) But I need to convince my husband it's not preferential treatment and that it won't hurt anything.

[Pat W.]

Normally within a pack there is a male heirarchy and a female one so I dont see where he would be put out. I do see that when I have a foster in the house that my wanna be alpha aussie gets very snarky if the foster wants up on the bed while my hubby and I are on it and the aussie is too. I cant blame him because 1) this is his house and his people 2) the bed is a special privilege and you have to be a good boy/girl to earn it.

[MaggieDog]

Well it sounds like her behavior is totally within bounds right now, so I wouldn't change a thing. In some households, especially where interdog aggression is a problem already, it might cause problems to have different rules for different dogs. I'd just make sure Zoe doesn't start being more guardy or pushy in general, but it sounds like it's working out fine right now.

 

Most of the stuff I've read says the humans are the ones who have full say in everything and the dogs are so far down the totem pole that they shouldn't have to worry about jockeying for position.

[bcnewe2]

I have between 5 and 7 dogs around each other at all times and I don't mess with their heirarchy much. That being said, I do make the rules so if I want one on the bed then that's the one that gets on the bed.

They are allowed rec. bones outside and I watch all of them get snarky if someone tries to steal the others bone.

But....I don't give rawhides out at all. They cause way to much fighting. Besides it causes some to get stomach upsets and I've almost lost a dog to rawhides so my easy answer is no rawhides.

 

That said even if I give out enough rawhides, pigs ears, ect. for everyone, they still are just nasty about them.

 

I have wondered about pack order too. I have 2 LGD's and one is clearly dominant over the other. He is the easiest to handle so he has been neutered first (other is on the list but very hard to load so he's on hold for his vet trip). I wondered if that would change the order, but I've noticed no difference, except maybe his growls are a bit higher pitched

 

In my house the bitches are the top of the chain. Even my lead male will relent to my lead female.

 

Cheers

Kristen

[Root Beer]

If it does, I don't think the effect would be major.

 

It's your bed and you can let who you want up there. They will adjust accordingly.

[Jen C]

I think that the question for me would be whether Zoe began guarding furniture from Zeeke (ie - does she think it is her furniture to guard from him or, does she understand that it is your furniture and she can go up because you let her and you decide who goes up and when). As long as she gets that it is yours and your right to call up or not call up whoever you please, I wouldn't think this should effect their pack order...

[INU]

That's a really good point.

 

I think that the question for me would be whether Zoe began guarding furniture from Zeeke (ie - does she think it is her furniture to guard from him or, does she understand that it is your furniture and she can go up because you let her and you decide who goes up and when). As long as she gets that it is yours and your right to call up or not call up whoever you please, I wouldn't think this should effect their pack order...

[Pippin's person]

I think there's a difference between messing with pack dynamics and preferential treatment--doing the one doesn't necessarily have an effect on the other. I honestly don't believe there is all that much we can do to truly affect pack dynamics.

 

To me it seems like pack dynamics are something between the dogs and the main place for the humans is to make sure that all the dogs understand that they have to play by the humans' rules regardless of their own relationships (and assuming those rules are clear, fair and consistent). I wouldn't even begin to guess what the actual dynamics between my dogs are since the only way I can interpret them is as a human (rather than a dog). Whenever I decide that dog X must be the "dominant" dog, one of the others does something to change that notion. It sounds like Zeke respects Zoe's right to the bones once she reminds him.

 

I agree with Jen that as long as Zoe doesn't start guarding the furniture or you, then it's up to you to decide to let her up there. Like all privileges, that's one to be earned. Zeke doesn't get to get on the furniture because he can't handle it. In some ways it's more fair to him because he gets to see a consistent rule--if he acts like a jerk, he doesn't get to do the thing he wants, and it reinforces to him that you are the ones who decide what happens in the house.

 

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[Lunar]

Thanks for all the input guys. You're reaffirming my notions.

 

No, as far as I can tell Zoe isn't guarding the furniture from Zeeke. Before we kicked him off they'd happily share the couch - or she would move out of the way. If she does start guarding then we'll deal with that. She doesn't guard anything from hubby or I... even her "special" bones that she snarls at Zeeke over, I can and do lean over and play with them, kiss her on the nose, take it away and give it back... and all she does is lick my hand and look at me expectantly, hoping I'll give it back. (I usually do.) I was very deliberate with doing that with Zoe from the day I got her, just as I did with Oreo. Mama's the boss, mama owns the bone and the furniture.

 

And Robin, what you said is so true. I'm still moderately new to owning two dogs (lived in a household with two dogs for about 2, 2.5 years now) and I'm still learning so much. With Zeeke and Zoe it is very obvious who is more dominant. But like you said, there are times when she turns it around on him - and he doesn't seem too upset by it. I really find it fascinating how they have their own rules that they fully understand and respect.