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There is? That has not been my experience. I would actually say it has been the opposite, or at least I've heard plenty of people talking about it, but I don't know what happened to those dogs.

 

Yes, there is --- in the community of which I have been a part for 9 years. I can only speak to that. We are dog enthusiasts who lead dog-centric lives. Our dogs are our companions and pals first.

 

You and I live in different parts of the country and perhaps you have hung out with more exalted members of agility than I have. Although a former world team member I took privates with is devoted to her dogs, at least 2 of which are rescues, one with big confidence/fear issues. Lots of agility people adore their dogs, certainly the vast majority that I have met. I wouldn't want to spend time around them in a dog sport if they didn't. I find the same thing with the obedience people. It's why that club member giving her dog away was so shocking.

 

Perhaps our sports and games seem silly next to the trialing you love and revere so much, but that doesn't mean we aren't as 100% committed to our dogs as you are to yours.

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In flyball I know a few folks that have rehomed their dogs. Do I agree with it, not necessarily but since these folks actually find good homes for the dogs that don't cut it in sports I think the dogs are better off. The dogs that aren't fast enough usually get shipped off to another team. Some of the dogs stay with their owners but still run on a different team. Some are out right sold, some are actually sent out on 1 yr leases with possible option to buy, and yes some probably end up in rescue (does not seem to happen often around here) and many prefer to just find a new activity they can do with said dog.

 

Then again, I know some non-sport people who have also rehomed their dogs just because of lack of bonding, not a good fit, dog had issues they could not deal with or maybe no longer had time.

 

Shoot - when my acd was retired from flyball 18 months ago, she became extremely aggressive because she needed something more to do than sit around. She had some injury issues. She started attacking my other dogs especially my toy poodle. She drew blood more than once. The incidents were unprovoked. I seriously thought about rehoming one of them by sending one of them to my mother's house. Luckily, my acd finally blew her knee out and we could have her 2nd TPLO done and she is no longer in retirement and is much happier with life. If I would have rehomed one of my dogs I would have been devastated but it would been best for everyone in the long run.

 

Yes rehoming dogs is sometimes the best option and definitely better than dropping at rescue or on the streets. Some of these rehomed dogs end up with a much happier life for it.

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QUOTE(SoloRiver @ Aug 27 2008, 01:35 PM)

"There is? That has not been my experience. I would actually say it has been the opposite, or at least I've heard plenty of people talking about it, but I don't know what happened to those dogs."

 

My experience, was very few performance people re- homed their dogs if they didn't work out. I competed for 20 years, in obedience, tracking, several UD's and OTCH. I found the opposite, most of the people competing had dogs that were breeder so called rejects, too tall, not right carriage, whatever that meant. These performance People loved their dogs first, competing was second. In 20 years only one person I knew "personally" re-homed, and it was for a good reason. Yes, I've heard "stories" of other people, but never knew first hand.

 

Just as I "heard" stories of those bad "OTCH" people, but found it very different when I competed with them. They were not greedy hungry, title grabbing people, but people just out to have good time competing with their dog, - sit ring side with friends, share some good stories, eat some junk food and enjoy a "day with the dogs" . "Those" horrible OTCH people were the first to help me, give encouragement, or congratulations. Pretty much the same as what I found in the sheep trailing community. We all love our dogs first, competing second. I didn't find going for "titles" wrong, it's all about the journey, the people you meet along the way, your deepened bond with your dog. I drove home from many competitions with tears, not because of a win, but the shear joy my dog displayed that day, and the deepened bond. If we got a title, trophy that day, fine, but that's not what drove the majority of people I knew.

 

I do know the person you refer to that did very well with a Pekingese, Keeshond, Pomeranian and some other - "not so popular dogs." - I competed along side her ) - She was famous in that community and well known, with books and seminars. What you don't know, are the so called not so famous people that did very well with rescues, odd breeds, breeder odd balls, the dog nobody else wants. - There were MANY! But you don't hear of them, because they don't write books, or give seminars. Most people do it quietly and don't want recognition. I want you to know there are many of this kind.

 

Now, I've been out of the game for sometime, but I can't imagine it being all that different now. We're all here to enjoy our dogs first, no matter what venue.

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Now, I've been out of the game for sometime, but I can't imagine it being all that different now. We're all here to enjoy our dogs first, no matter what venue.

 

Actually, no, that's not true for *all* of us. For some of us, it's more about preserving the breed to accomplish it's original purpose - stockwork. Settling for a lesser working dog, and/or breeding it, works against that goal.

 

Not trying to nitpick - that last sentence just caught my attention and i had to comment on it.

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Actually, no, that's not true for *all* of us. For some of us, it's more about preserving the breed to accomplish it's original purpose - stockwork. Settling for a lesser working dog, and/or breeding it, works against that goal.

 

Not trying to nitpick - that last sentence just caught my attention and i had to comment on it.

 

 

I wasn't commenting on working/sport breeding, but people re-homing dogs if they didn't work out,- no matter what venue they're in. But then again, maybe I'm wrong...? It was just *my* experience.

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I wasn't commenting on working/sport breeding, but people re-homing dogs if they didn't work out,- no matter what venue they're in. But then again, maybe I'm wrong...? It was just *my* experience.

 

Like i said, i didn't mean to pick on your statement, it just caught my eye so i wanted to comment on it. I probably could have been more clear. If we don't or can't rehome dogs that don't work out stockwork-wise, we're "settling" for what we have in the kennel instead of trying to get the best, train the best, and breed the best.

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If we don't or can't rehome dogs that don't work out stockwork-wise, we're "settling" for what we have in the kennel instead of trying to get the best, train the best, and breed the best.

 

That certainly makes sense. I think most of the sports people on this thread have been responding about the sports world which they have varying years of experience in. I personally wouldn't presume to make judgments about a world I do not fully understand (stockdog).

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But this goes back to the original question - what people are trying to accomplish with sport breeding. If a working kennel/home is striving to produce top notch stockdogs, in part to preserve the original breed/purpose of the border collie, then it makes sense that dogs that don't make the cut may not have a place in that kennel, or need to be retired. (From an emotional standpoint, I don't know how you do it. I am attached to my dogs. But from a theoretical standpoint, I see the need). But someone who is playing a *sport* and rehomes a dog because it can't/won't play has no real excuse other than selfishness. There's a fellow in the PNW who dumps his frisbee dogs who don't excel. I think that's gross! It's frisbee for crying out loud. In the grand scheme of things, how can frisbee be considered important, in any way??

 

RDM

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Like i said, i didn't mean to pick on your statement, it just caught my eye so i wanted to comment on it. I probably could have been more clear. If we don't or can't re home dogs that don't work out stockwork-wise, we're "settling" for what we have in the kennel instead of trying to get the best, train the best, and breed the best.

 

I wasn't talking about stock dogs, sport dogs, or any particular breeding. Just in *general* I didn't see re-homing that often. If you read my post, I'm from the background of obedience, tracking, I started in the late 1970's and last competing in 1997. Like I said, it was *my* experience, - meaning, I saw very little re-homing of dogs that didn't work out in obedience. I'm talking *all* dogs, not just border collies. Melanie asked about obedience people in a few posts back, that is what I'm commenting on.

 

I have NO problem with what you said; :rolleyes:

"If we don't or can't re home dogs that don't work out stock work-wise, we're "settling" for what we have in the kennel instead of trying to get the best, train the best, and breed the best."

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But this goes back to the original question - what people are trying to accomplish with sport breeding. If a working kennel/home is striving to produce top notch stockdogs, in part to preserve the original breed/purpose of the border collie, then it makes sense that dogs that don't make the cut may not have a place in that kennel, or need to be retired. But someone who is playing a *sport* and rehomes a dog because it can't/won't play has no real excuse other than selfishness.

 

But, the sports are a big business. These dogs are being bred to produce the best sport dogs possible (more about that in a moment). If I were a top notch agility handler, I would not want to keep a dog that won't make it at the top levels of international competition. These are business decisions. And, also decisions that are most often for the best of the dog. These people do not have one or two dogs...many have mulitple dogs and the dogs are kennel dogs. I think it's better for the dog to be rehomed to a "lessor" competitor so the dog can live as a pet and compete in a game it may really love and do really well at - just not international competition level quality - which is good enough for 95% of the people.

 

Regarding sport dogs...I think the breeders are hoping to intensify what they like about the successful agility dogs. Intensity, drive, biddability, structure, whatever. The breeder often spends a lot of time socializing, training and getting their puppies off to a good start in life for a city-dog. The breeders are usually obsessive about OFA ratings on their dogs...little thought about CEA/PRA.

 

But, are they breeding "border collies"? No. A border collie is a dog that is bred to work stock with little else going into those decisions.

 

Sport Collies, being a relatively new breed, may continue to evolve to a point where there will be little cross-over with border collies. I don't think there is anything wrong with establishing a new breed of dog...but, the sport breeders need to be honest - these dogs really don't have a good chance to win Meeker or Bluegrass or Sonoma or USBCHA finals or Worlds or insert trial here. But, I don't think that's where their market wants to compete, either.

 

Jennifer Akins

Trowbridge, CA

www.jentodogs.com

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OK- I've refrained from talking.

Now, I'll post my views, as simple as they are. VERY SIMPLE!!!

 

You want a herding dog- you go to a herding event, look for a great herding dog and a trustworthy breeder, do some research and get yourself a great herding dog.

 

Now, let's say you are into sports- never done herding- you see a great sports dog, go to that great sports dog and ask where it was bred and you get yourself a great sports dog-

 

You want a great show dog- you go to a ACK show, you see a winning dog, you go to that person and ask about breeding and that's where you get your dog from.

 

Little does anyone know they ONCE WERE border collies! How do we educate the public? You got me?

 

How do we stop this? Well, we sell our herding dogs spayed or neutered. I know, it's young & early. But what other chances can we take? It's great if they don't go to working homes. At least they have a job to do and are well loved.

 

As far as re-homing dogs, I've only had to do that to a couple, due to my divorce and it killed me. If they didn't work out as herding, we found a different venue for them. Obedience, agility, something for them to enjoy. I have loved all my dogs, all my rescues and I really think I have placed them in the right homes. I "knew" the rescues where not here to stay, but IF they did NOT find a home, then they stayed.

 

I had a friend in western OR. I would consider a "collector" I met her with my first BC. At one time she had 38 dogs in a pen. ALL intact. Yet, she was breeding. I shudder at what happened. A good trial dog was killed in a dog fight. Pups were born and who knows who the father was at this point. Needless to say, this woman has long since been my friend.

 

I don't know what happened to her. She DID help me with my first BC's. Yet, my respect for her is gone gone gone. A dog broker. So sad.

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How do we stop this? Well, we sell our herding dogs spayed or neutered. I know, it's young & early. But what other chances can we take? It's great if they don't go to working homes. At least they have a job to do and are well loved.

 

Dianne, what are you referring to here? Speutering 8 week old puppies? Big hats selling their "herding dogs spayed or neutered" to other handlers? Breeders selling all their pups that won't be "herding dogs" on speuter contracts? I know you said your view is very simple, however, I don't think the answer is quite as simple.

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QUOTE

How do we stop this? Well, we sell our herding dogs spayed or neutered. I know, it's young & early. But what other chances can we take? It's great if they don't go to working homes. At least they have a job to do and are well loved.

 

 

Dianne, what are you referring to here? Speutering 8 week old puppies? Big hats selling their "herding dogs spayed or neutered" to other handlers? Breeders selling all their pups that won't be "herding dogs" on speuter contracts? I know you said your view is very simple, however, I don't think the answer is quite as simple.

 

Yes. I said IF they don't go to working homes. That way we could continue the ABC lines as working lines and others would have to ILP/PAL their dogs, meaning they would have to spay or neuter anyway. I'm not real "up to par" on this but I know when your dog is ABC registered and you want to compete in any ACK sport, your dog must be spayed or neutered. Just had a lesson today with my obedience trainer and she's a judge, also. But don't quote me on it- LOL.

I have NO CLUE about dual registration. You can quote me on this- I don't agree for breeding for sport. I think if you let the border collie be a working dog and keep the best of the best, you can excell at any venue.

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I think all sport collies should be bred to a JRT/Border Terrier/Pit Bull, etc. which would take the progeny out of the border collie gene pool.

 

Seriously, Melanie, your provocative question has been answered several times over - people buy from sport breeders because that is what they see and that is what they want. The sport breedings will stop when people decide to buy elsewhere, which, I guess, is no time soon. It is demand driven with a huge payoff to the breeders ($1000+ a pup, wow!!). The same question can be applied the current KC debate. People breed mutant dogs because there is a huge demand for it.

 

Vilefy the breeders if you must, but the blame rests equally or greater upon the shoulders of the purchasers.

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Yes. I said IF they don't go to working homes. That way we could continue the ABC lines as working lines and others would have to ILP/PAL their dogs, meaning they would have to spay or neuter anyway. I'm not real "up to par" on this but I know when your dog is ABC registered and you want to compete in any ACK sport, your dog must be spayed or neutered. Just had a lesson today with my obedience trainer and she's a judge, also. But don't quote me on it- LOL.

I have NO CLUE about dual registration. You can quote me on this- I don't agree for breeding for sport. I think if you let the border collie be a working dog and keep the best of the best, you can excell at any venue.

 

Ok, maybe I don't understand what you are proposing.

 

If they don't go to working homes, but they don't want to compete AKC, are they allowed to keep their dogs intact?

 

If they go to sport homes, do you require that they spay/neuter them only if they are competing in AKC? What if you have an agility person that likes NADAC instead? Or one of the other many venues? Do you require those people to spay/neuter also? If so, how do you police it / enforce it?

 

If you require all persons who are not working their dogs on livestock to spay/neuter their dogs, how do you think they are going to take that? Sitting down? What the difference between that and what California is trying to do with their mandatory S/N laws?

 

Not trying to pick your idea apart ... just trying to understand it.

 

Jodi

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Ok, maybe I don't understand what you are proposing.

 

If they don't go to working homes, but they don't want to compete AKC, are they allowed to keep their dogs intact?

 

NO WAY!!!

 

If they go to sport homes, do you require that they spay/neuter them only if they are competing in AKC? What if you have an agility person that likes NADAC instead? Or one of the other many venues? Do you require those people to spay/neuter also? If so, how do you police it / enforce it?

 

I have no clue about these clubs. As you know, in our town, we just don't have access to this.

 

If you require all persons who are not working their dogs on livestock to spay/neuter their dogs, how do you think they are going to take that? Sitting down? What the difference between that and what California is trying to do with their mandatory S/N laws?

Wow- that's a tough ?

 

Not trying to pick your idea apart ... just trying to understand it.

 

Jodi

You know I just love a friendly debate. Your questions are quite valid and I don't see how WE, as a whole, can really direct this breed to be the best. They have been " sold out " just as the Aussie's, just as the Golden's, so many breeds. I simply do not have an answer. I'm sorry.

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Ok, maybe I don't understand what you are proposing.

 

If you require all persons who are not working their dogs on livestock to spay/neuter their dogs, how do you think they are going to take that? Sitting down? What the difference between that and what California is trying to do with their mandatory S/N laws?

Wow- that's a tough ?

 

WHy is that tough? There are tons of breeders of all sorts of breeds that sell all their pups on spay/neuter contracts, and have no problem selling their puppies or older dogs. The majority of people doing agility, etc. are not interested in breeding, they just wnat a good dog to play the sports with.

 

If the stockdog people refuse to sell their pups or older dogs that aren't working out as working or trial dogs on a spay/neuter contract, or altered before they leave their place, and then that purchaser turns arounds and uses those Border Collies for breeding "sport collies" how can that person bitch and complaing about the production of "Sport Collies"? That person is contributing to the problem, no matter what they say.

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If the stockdog people refuse to sell their pups or older dogs that aren't working out as working or trial dogs on a spay/neuter contract, or altered before they leave their place ...

 

So let's assume all of the reputable and not so reputable stockdog breeders somehow get conviced to only sell spayed/neutered pups and dogs to sports people (good luck with that, by the way, especially after the money some of them have already seen what kind of money can be made) ... what do you think those sports people are going to do? Say, "Ok ... no problem ... I'll still buy a dog from you even though I can't breed it and produce very very fast agility puppies that I can sell for $1500+ each.."?

 

I don't think so.

 

Besides ... let's say an agility person wants a dog from a stockdog person, but the stockdog person doesn't know them from a hole in the wall. All they have to do is lie ... "Oh yes, I work stockdogs ..." and boom ... they have a pup from a working breeder to run in agility and breed till their heart's content. Now what? Should the stockdog breeder have a contract that they now need to enforce?

 

Oh, and we might be able to educate those trialing stockdog people to not sell to sport homes ... but what about notifying all of the farmers and ranchers the stockdog people sell their puppies to? Those people breed their dogs also and sell their pups to the first person with cash. Now what?

 

Ban dual registration? That's been gone through a myriad of times also. Tiered registration. Another idea that's been beat to death.

 

I think that rather than trying to control other people and trying to control situations we cannot control, we should all focus on ourselves and doing the best we, personally, can for the breed as a whole. As long as there are people who work to preserve the working stockdog, there will always be good dogs for those of us who want/need them.

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I think all sport collies should be bred to a JRT/Border Terrier/Pit Bull, etc. which would take the progeny out of the border collie gene pool.

 

I completely agree--I think so-called "designer" breeds for sports are a good thing for the working dog gene pool. Unfortunately, these kinds of crosses are far more common in flyball than in the more popular sport of agility, where the "pure-bred" ideology of organizations like the AKC make it very difficult for mixed-breed dogs to actually compete. And since the vast majority of agility competitions seem to be AKC-sponsored (and certainly for those aspiring to the "world team", the AKC is the organization of record for that), then there is little incentive to promote, breed or sell these other dogs among those who are producing for the sport market. (ETA: not to say I advocate this over rescue--I don't necessarily)

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I think that rather than trying to control other people and trying to control situations we cannot control, we should all focus on ourselves and doing the best we, personally, can for the breed as a whole. As long as there are people who work to preserve the working stockdog, there will always be good dogs for those of us who want/need them.

 

I think that's it exactly. Trying to "save the breed" as a whole, is futile. As i said earlier in this thread (or maybe it was the other one) - what we need to preserve is the ABILITY, and the gene pool that produces it, not "the breed".

 

So here's my controversial contribution for today: I don't care about those other non-able dogs do or where they live, etc. I don't like seeing them bred, but for a different reason than a lot of people. I don't like them taking good homes from working bred dogs (and that includes rescues). If working breeders don't have good homes to sell puppies to, they produce less puppies, and that shrinks the gene pool right there.

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So here's my controversial contribution for today: I don't care about those other non-able dogs do or where they live, etc. I don't like seeing them bred, but for a different reason than a lot of people. I don't like them taking good homes from working bred dogs (and that includes rescues).

 

Well you can thank a number of working breeders who refuse to sell to sport homes for promoting the sport breedings as well

 

I know of numerous, and at least 2 people quite local ,who are *good* homes, who do *not* breed and are more than willing to speuter, who were refused as buyers by stockdog breeders with nice working dog because they run AKC agility.

 

Yet those same breeders will sell to a pet home, no s/n requirement, and their dogs are openly going to some serious trash "working" kennels (kennels who breed everything they have, all they can, and sell to anybody, but hey they run open with at least 1% of their breeding stock -woohoo).

 

I hate AKC, but I don't see even how that crappy organization's sport participants with speutered dogs...could *possibly* be better than seeing your pups in a working kennel breeding like mad and treated like dirt.

 

But apparently it's true.

 

And with this thought these kennels are forcing good pet buyers (defined as speutering homes) to sport kennels, ACK breeders, and backyard breeders if they want a Border Collie other than a rescue.

 

Does make one go hmmmmm...doesn't it?

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Is there money in all of this or just ego. What did the world agility champion earn last year, what was the big prize for the top frisbee dog. How much did the world herding champion make last year. Is the money in breeding with the world champion's pups going for big bucks. Or, are we just talking about big egos here. Do we have buyers that need to claim they have a dog from the beast blood in the world. I will go back to my earlier post and say it is all in the marketing. I am thinking about getting my youngest dog Dave into agility and I want to do it for fun. The more I read this thread the more I think that there is not really so much fun going on in the agility world as there is bragging. What would I have to brag about if my dog Dave became a top agility dog, that he is bred from a line of hard core stock dogs. OR, I am just kidding myself and because Dave was not bred by a top sport dog breeder that he would be useless as an agility dog. OR, if he did turn out to be a top agility dog would sport breeding go in the herding direction. Would I in part be responsible for the destruction of the herding BC. I don't think so but if I got one would not everybody want one. I have a very serious issue with folks who only want performance from their dogs and a dog that does not perform to the highest possible levels is out of the club. I feel pretty secure in knowing that the top herding dog breeders ( insert a name ) are going in a single minded direction and the breed is safe. I will take issue with anyone who wants to take the breed in a different direction but that is the way things go. I was thinking of letting Dave read this thread but I am a little nervous about that, it might cause brain damage. I would need to assure him that if he did not win the big prize I would not ship him off to the glue factory.

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Is there money in all of this or just ego. What did the world agility champion earn last year, what was the big prize for the top frisbee dog. How much did the world herding champion make last year. Is the money in breeding with the world champion's pups going for big bucks. Or, are we just talking about big egos here..

 

Any time you're talking organized competitive sports, of course you're going to run into your share of egos. That is human nature. I don't know about Disk Dog but there is next to no money ever for agility. And even if there is for Disk Dog, it can't amount to enough to live on. Where the money comes in is in your reputation which allows you to earn a living from instructing, doing seminars and publishing books/producing DVD's. I don't know how many people are making a living off of producing puppies for sports, but obviously there is some profit in it. It does seem that there is a culture of encouraging rescue for Disk Dog, but that is based on pretty peripheral involvement on my part.

 

The more I read this thread the more I think that there is not really so much fun going on in the agility world as there is bragging.

 

You might want to actually experience the agility world for yourself before deciding it is about bragging. There isn't exactly a representative sample of the sport on this thread. Yes, at the top levels, competition is unbelievable fierce. Yes, competition at any level can bring out the worst in people. But I really think the vast majority of agility and obedience competitors are in the sport to have fun with their dogs and friends. The vast majority do not even contemplate rehoming a dog due to not cutting it in agility or obedience.

 

if he did turn out to be a top agility dog would sport breeding go in the herding direction. Would I in part be responsible for the destruction of the herding BC. I don't think so but if I got one would not everybody want one

 

If you are just starting out in the sport, the odds are fairly astronomical that Dave is going to turn into a top agility dog. The competition is truly incredible at the highest levels. I know superb handlers with amazing dogs who will get on the World Team once or place in Nationals once or twice. That level of achievement is difficult to maintain over a period of time unless you are truly phenomenal. There are several names you will see repeatedly at the highest levels year after year. Several handlers out of thousands. So at worst, if Dave and you turned into a fantastic team, you might contribute to people turning to working dogs. But then we reach the Catch 22 where we should only get working bred dogs (if not rescue) but if we won't be using the dog to work stock, it's hard to find a working bred dog meeting our needs for sports.

 

I have a very serious issue with folks who only want performance from their dogs and a dog that does not perform to the highest possible levels is out of the club.

 

I do too. So do all my friends. So do most people in obedience and agility. Not that that sort of thing doesn't happen, but again it doesn't for the vast majority of agility and obedience people. I can't speak to Flyball, Disk Dog or any other activity. I've done obedience on and off for 18 years and agility for 9. I base my statements about those venues on that experience.

 

I've had a trial person offer me a Sheltie upon knowing me for 30 minutes because the Sheltie wasn't going to cut it for someone who had fallen in love with hobby herding. Despite that depressing conversation, it doesn't make me any less of an outsider from the trial world so I don't comment on it or pretend to understand what goes into all the decisions made by people at various levels (breeders, trainers, those who trial, those who run farms).

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So here's my controversial contribution for today: I don't care about those other non-able dogs do or where they live, etc.

 

But you do, because you don't want them to reproduce, and you don't want them living in the homes well-bred pups might be sold to otherwise.

 

Puppies don't have to go to sport or pet homes already altered on spay/neuter contracts (increasingly, sport homes won't agree to this anyway, what with Chris Zink's opinions on spay/neuter practically becoming matters of religion for some people). They can be sold on limited registration or without papers. That in and of itself cuts down on the incentive to breed, both for irresponsible BYBs who think it's important to sell puppies with papers, and for sports folks who aspire to things like the World Team.

 

OK, this might turn off some potential sport or pet placements, but really -- the majority of a litter should not be earmarked for sport/pet homes anyway. If selling to sport/pet folks becomes a determining factor in contract and placement practices, then I would think a breeder needs to rethink her breeding program and reevaluate whether or not there really is a legitimate demand for the puppies she breeds.

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