Sport Collies

[Rave]

Why you ask? Why not? There is a huge demand for sport pups because dog sports are huge. Even if half the people decided to go to working breeders, there wouldn't be enough available supply. Yeah there's rescue, but not everyone wants to go that route. I've personally had lousy luck with rescues with health problems... does it mean I'll never get another rescue? No, but I can see how others might be turned off.

 

The common sport competitor who wishes to EXCEL and not just "play" will look toward proven sport lines, towards breeders who test out the wazoo for every potential health problem and do early imprint training and produce dogs with rock solid temperments. What they'll get at 7-8 weeks is a pup whose been exposed to crate training, potty training, loud and "scary" things, handling, and anything else imaginable. They'll have watched their pups on webcams since they were days old. These breeders have figured out what the demand is and have catered to it, and can easily get $800-1000+ for a pup.

 

I know of a well-known sport breeder who is importing working dogs from overseas to possibly add to her lines (once they've "proven" themselves as agility contenders). So just as working lines are developed, so are sport lines. Yeah it's no one's cup of tea here on this forum, but there is demand out there. I'm constantly surrounded by sport collies, and ya know what... they're all just BCs.

[stockdogranch]

I'm constantly surrounded by sport collies, and ya know what... they're all just BCs.

 

Ahhh, but they're really NOT "all just BCs." Because the Border Collie has been bred to WORK LIVESTOCK, and sport dogs are not. And so, a sport collie is just that--a SPORT COLLIE. NOT a Border Collie,

 

A

[SoloRiver]

I'm constantly surrounded by sport collies, and ya know what... they're all just BCs.

 

How do you know, if you're not also constantly surrounded by sheep?

 

There's a field lab who trains at the place I'm taking Jett to now, and she's more or less interchangeable with the high-drive Sport Collies who are obsessed with tugging and are lightning fast on the course, and she has tons of focus, and she loves to play ball, and she isn't very big, and she's leggy and well put together. But she isn't a Border Collie, is she?

[Ooky]

Wow. I guess that this thread has certainly opened my eyes up some, on the "why" to breed sport collies, which I still find objectionable. I *do* believe you can cross-breed for or select for one-dimensional qualities that predispose one to excel at dogsports, but I definitely agree with the people pointing out the *luck* nature of it anyway - what level of dog you'll really end up with. I also understand people desperately wanting some guarantee that a dog will turn out to be what they want them to be, because dogs are great for narcissism. In our society, what better (maybe I should say more predictable) way to attempt to gain that guarantee than responding to sellers with advertising, niche markets, and "brand-name" pricing? But I am also guilty of this - I bought a puppy too after all. And like Melanie I am not regretful, but that doesn't change that I was attempting to buy what I decided that I needed from a dog.

 

I wanted to go to rescue, but rescue pups are under VERY high demand in my area. Spay/neuter has also worked extremely well, and even though they ship pups in from rescues and animal controls all over CA, it is hard to find one. I put in a what seemed like a bazillion adoption forms and was never rejected for anything about me, but was consistently like 7th in line for a litter of 3 pups, or whatever. It became clear to me that it was like a lottery - no matter how I watched petfinder like a hawk for 8-12 wk pups even remotely resembling a size/breed I would consider, I was never in the "winning" numbers. I realized that the first litter I did get high enough on the list for would be almost randomly chosen, and not just for which pup out of the litter, but which breed X even. It would be whichever one I saw soon enough and maybe already had an adoption app on file they would already accept to expedite it further. Maybe it isn't always like that here, but in early summer of this year, my time to get a pup after over 10 years of waiting, it certainly was.

 

My DH, a former rescue guy, kept asking me what kind of dog I needed. He really wanted me to break it down that way. He said that people *need* their dogs to be something specific or do something specific for them more than any other animal, and to go into that blind is to pick the wrong dog for you and make a huge mistake. Unlike an "off" cat, it will be hard to be happy or even ambivalent. Now it's one thing if you only think you "need" the dog for something but then when she gets home and gives you something else, you yourself change and are still happy and satisfied with your dog. But DH was talking more about what it sounds like to me SS Cressa have an exaggerated attitude of: a constant bitch list about their dog's health/temperament/genetic faults, all obviously no fault of the owner/trainer, and no or few accompanying warm fuzzies to go with that. All faults chalked up to bad genetics instead of bad training, bad joint care when young, or bad luck. (An attitude I see Kim expressing NONE of, BTW). He had seen this attitude over and over in people returning dogs and I think his worst fear was that I would become one of them. And then he would have had to divorce me.

 

I told DH I needed a "good dog". I refused to get much more specific, but it was all I really cared to ask for. As a lifelong cat person, I've loved every cat I've ever met - mean, mangy, rangy, angry, bitey, lovey, ugly, pretty, smelly, smart, dumb, whatever. But I have a bit of a fear of out-of-control dogs (which is totally melting now) and have historically only liked the "good" ones - by this I guess now I'd have to say I meant biddable, soft, focused, and loving - and NOT jumpy! DH took this to mean I needed a pup that was not the most dominant pup in the litter, one who was people-focused, and he very badly wanted to evaluate the parents' temperaments. It became very clear this was never going to happen for us with rescue, in this situation. Or anything other than total puppy roulette. So we sought to buy these things, which I bring up in this long long post to show that I am in many ways no different than PT Barnum's sucker. Odin could easily have turned out completely different than he seemed at the breeder's. He didn't, but he could have. I know myself enough to say that I would have loved and cherished Odin no matter what, but if he was a dominant, thick-headed constantly bouncy lab-style dog knocking me over all the time, it would have been WAY harder to arrive at the conclusion he was just what I had needed in my life. WAY harder, too, to be happy enough with him to spend the time needed to unbounce him with training.

 

But what originally prompted me to post regarding the original debate put forth by Melanie, though, is SS Cressas' attitude that I referred to earlier. If desiring a physique-based guarantee is one half of the why, then I firmly believe the attitude that "the dog must be bred to not bring ME down and to deliver what I need" is the other half. (which attitude may exist in working circles too but is not quite so icky there as those dogs DO need to fulfill a function, like horses or other working animals). How could a mere sport seemingly be worth more than an animal to you? I was going to say, "an animal you were going to give a forever home to..", but I'm not sure people who think this way ever make that promise to a dog they obtain, however they obtain it. I'm sure that SS Cressas will argue they do not actually feel this way, and maybe they don't. But it comes off that way, not just in this thread but others. If there are many more like that out there, NO WONDER there are sport breeders.

 

This is probably way too harsh but it's MO, FWIW.

[Shetlander]

I've heard folks obsessing over developing the "tug drive" in their puppies so that they would be successful sport dogs..... What kinds of puppies are people buying, that they are Border Collies and cannot be made to be interested in toys?

 

Not any that I've come across. Most have tons of prey drive and tugging/fetching/playing is no real issue. Folks obsess over tugging because that is what some agility people are prone to do -- obsess. Over tugging, contact performance, start line stays, what their dogs find reinforcing, etc.

 

Well, it took a few days for these types of comments to show up in a "I'd just like to hear from the other side" thread about sports breeding, but show up they did:

 

Agility bred Border Collies most of the time...are simply the pedigreed version of the Labradoodle.

 

the Border Collie has been bred to WORK LIVESTOCK, and sport dogs are not. And so, a sport collie is just that--a SPORT COLLIE. NOT a Border Collie,

 

There's a field lab who trains at the place I'm taking Jett to now, and she's more or less interchangeable with the high-drive Sport Collies who are obsessed with tugging and are lightning fast on the course

 

I've been on these boards for 3 years and have learned tons from so many of you. I agree there sure seem to be significant differences between sports bred and working bred dogs (speaking from years of hanging around agility dogs and being an extreme novice around working dogs). And if you must say my dog isn't a Border Collie, ok, fine, whatever. Just please, puh-leze don't compare him to a Labradoodle or a Lab! No offense to Lab (and doodle) lovers, but that just is way too low a blow for me to take on a Monday!

 

For the record, my sports bred dog grew into almost the identical dog his breeder predicted he'd become. This was based on observations and yes, puppy testing. What wasn't predicted were 2 1/2 years of health issues that while not completely the breeders' fault, sure got their start there. He did come with a guarantee, but while the breeders responded to me during Quinn's first health crisis, it wasn't a helpful response. More of a "sucks to be you" which it surely did at that moment. I'm sure the breeder would have taken him back but I really wonder how many people would give up a dog they've grown to love. I could have demanded a cut on the price of another puppy from this breeder, but I'm as likely to take up that dubious offer as I am to hand over my pal because he isn't perfect. And as it turns out, while his immune system is still shaky, he's been the picture of absurdly good health for several months now.

 

So, no, there aren't any guarantees in life. People just try to find what they think are their best bets. Those people who mainly know agility usually go to sports breeders. I couldn't ask for a dog that was more fun for me than Quinn. Before he saw his first sheep, I had zero interest in sheep herding so his limitations there don't bother me. He loves the activity more than anything in the world though and for some reason I don't fully understand, I love watching him do his sports version of herding. I am just crazy about that dog <insert heart symbol here>.

[sluj]

..... telling me they must have a puppy so they can raise it properly. I explain frequently that if it were that easy, there might be fewer border collies in rescue.

 

Worse yet, people tend to give up on dogs that are just on the brink of turning into good adults from moron puppies. Adopting them at that age is wonderful - the horrible bit is so short

 

RDM

 

Agreed. The dogs my family adopted at 2 and 3 months grew up somewhat neurotic (yes, I know what that implies about our puppy-raising abilities). Rather less the case with the two strays that showed up at a year and one at 9 months. Plus it was so nice to have housetraining done with in less than a week.

 

I don't really get the concept though, of buying a dog for a hobby. If stock raising or hunting is what you do for a living, sure you need the best dog you can get. But.... I just see too many kids unhappily studying for medicine at the insistence of their parents to really feel comfortable defining a dog by his sports potential.

[2 Devils]

I must say I actually hate puppyhood. I don't regret getting puppies but I really hate puppies until they are about 8 months old give or take.

 

Again, I don't think a dog has to be obsessed with tugging to play sports. All my dogs tug at home and love it but again only one of the dogs will tug on the lanes. I really wanted Riot to tug on the lanes but he won't. He is extremely ball obsessed and was hard to catch for awhile. If he ran for a tug that would make "getting him" much easier.

 

I have never paid more than $600 for a dog.

[Rave]

How do you know, if you're not also constantly surrounded by sheep?

 

 

wow, so now if a dog can't herd, it's not a BC? That's pretty extremist. What of all the herding school dropouts and cast-offs that working homes get rid of? Those dogs are working bred. You expect people to not call those dog border collies anymore? And what of those who get working bred dogs to do sports? Not BC's either?

[Rave]

I don't really get the concept though, of buying a dog for a hobby. If stock raising or hunting is what you do for a living, sure you need the best dog you can get.

 

hmm... well plenty of hobby herders (i.e. those who do herding competitions and don't actually own/manage livestock) do just that.

[Rave]

Ahhh, but they're really NOT "all just BCs." Because the Border Collie has been bred to WORK LIVESTOCK, and sport dogs are not. And so, a sport collie is just that--a SPORT COLLIE. NOT a Border Collie,

 

A

 

So if someone takes a sport-bred BC and trains it to compete in USBCHA herding and does well, then what?

[SoloRiver]

wow, so now if a dog can't herd, it's not a BC? That's pretty extremist.

 

Hi, hello, that is so not what I said. Why do these discussions keep going back to the same straw man?

 

What I mean is that sports, while fun and demanding, demonstrate the absolute lowest common denominator of what a Border Collie is. Any reasonably athletic, biddable, high-drive dog will excel at sports, and that includes a lot of dogs (like the aforementioned field Lab) that are not Border Collies.

 

The point is that you don't have the same breed if you are not selecting for something BETTER than the lowest common denominator. Observing lots and lots of dogs in the sports environment is not an adequate way of determining whether something important is being lost. Saying "they're all still Border Collies" is like saying "they're all ball players" without specifying whether they play the occasional pickup game for funsies or are NBA MVPs.

[stockdogranch]

So if someone takes a sport-bred BC and trains it to compete in USBCHA herding and does well, then what?

 

They got lucky.

 

But if someone were really interested in "training a dog to compete in USBCHA herding," they most probably wouldn't have purchased a sport-bred "Border Collie." They'd have gone for the real thing,

 

A

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Dogs end up here as a sort of last chance ranch thing. We train basics, and the foundations of a working relationship, and somewhere in this process the dog will tell me what kind of life would work best for them.

 

For the last two years there's been a spot available on the resident team, I'm still wavering on what to do about that. That spot will be for a rescue, however. I have my retired dog settled and he knows his place. The husband's dog understands that his place is o help "Dad". My young dog has emerged as #1 dog. But there's a need for a #2 dog.

 

I'm enjoying he peace and simplicity for a few weeks and don't plan to fill this hole actively. The best dogs come o you rather than being sought out.

 

All of my rescues have come at the wrong time for me. This fall, I'l have time to dedicate to exploring the skills of a talented rescue. I'm look forward to it.

[SoloRiver]

I don't really get the concept though, of buying a dog for a hobby.

 

Well, I'll try to address this one. First I will open by saying that I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with buying a puppy. It gets my goat when people think they cannot find a good dog in rescue, because I know that is absolutely not true, and that is why many people refuse to rescue and insist on buying a puppy instead. But I don't think there is anything morally wrong with buying a puppy. Sure, maybe you are a bigger person if you rescue a Border Collie than if you buy one. But by that token, aren't you a bigger person if you go down to the shelter and rescue the big black mutt that's way less likely to get a home than the cute black and white Border Collie in rescue? Aren't you an even bigger person if you forego having a dog altogether and donate all the money you would have spent on your own dog to rescues and shelters? Some would argue that you are an even bigger person if you eschew dogs altogether and spend your time and money helping homeless humans or starving children... see how this never ends?

 

I recognize and admit that buying a puppy is a selfish act, but in the grand scheme of things I don't have a problem sleeping at night.

 

If you admit (which you may not) that there is nothing morally wrong with buying a puppy, it is logical to allow one's choice of preferred activities to help dictate what type of puppy you get. Now, I realize that my reasoning here is not different from the reasoning of people who buy from sports breeders, but to me the difference is that I don't think that "sportsability" is a phenotype that one must select for specifically but I KNOW that working ability certainly is.

 

I'll go back to my reasoning when I bought Fly, who was imported at the age of three as a trained sheepdog ready to trial, with everything but a shed and look back (it turns out she does have a look back and she sort of has a shed, but both are shaky).

 

At the time I was working with Solo, who has his shortcomings as a working dog but we were both hooked anyway. The reason I was hooked is that working Solo on sheep showed me an entirely different side of him -- a side that was not just a sad, anxious, many-times-recycled dog (I am his fifth or sixth home, and I adopted him when he was 16 months old). Solo showed me skill, power, and an innate understanding of the task at hand that totally blew my mind. It was the only endeavor we'd ever taken on in which we were truly equal partners, and I had to rely as much on his judgment as he had to rely on mine. In addition to this, the more he worked, the better he got in civilian life. The second reason I got totally hooked on working sheep with Solo, other than how incredible the experience itself was, is what it did for him off sheep. Working allows dogs to learn to deal with pressure in an environment they find inherently rewarding. It was practice for his brain that helped teach him to take other stresses and pressures in his life with more equanimity than he had been able to before.

 

Solo is not an easy dog to handle, and as a novice team we just kept getting in each others way. I was doing him no favors. It was the blind leading the blind. Learning to handle sheepdogs with a green -- and hard-headed -- sheepdog is like trying to learn how to ride horses on an unbroken mustang, and everyone who's tried it is probably nodding along with me at this point. At the same time, I could watch Solo in the hands of a skilled handler (our trainer) and see that he could be much better than I was allowing him to be. I was thinking about getting a second dog anyway. My trainer suggested that I look for a trained dog who would teach me to handle, and I also knew that trained sheepdogs were the most well behaved, ridiculously obedient, temperamentally sound dogs I had ever met. Having one project dog on my hands, this appealed to me a great deal. I would become a better handler for Solo, and at the same time I would be able to compete in sheepdog trials.

 

(ETA: I did look for a dog in rescue. In fact, I had a potential working rescue as a foster-with-option-to-adopt for three weeks before I got Fly. I don't know how much aptitude she really had for working -- it looked mostly like prey drive -- but I would have kept her anyway if she'd gotten along with Solo. She emphatically did not get along with Solo. Her mission in life was to make Solo's life a living hell. Solo was having a hard enough time anyway, so I returned her and she went on to be placed in a goosedog home.)

 

Eventually Fly came up for sale and I decided to buy her. And that's how I ended up buying a dog for the sake of a hobby.

 

I don't think it's as simple as all that. I don't look at Fly as sports equipment. She fit the profile of what I wanted in a dog. I bought a trained adult because I can only have so many dogs and I wanted a dog who was as close to a sure thing as possible. She is exactly what I asked for. In addition, I got incredibly lucky in that her personality and temperament are an absolutely perfect counterpoint for Solo -- she is fearless, always happy, endlessly forgiving, and simple where he is complex. They are a perfect pair.

 

Had she been a sheepdud, I would have kept her anyway. Lucky for me, she was not.

 

Working sheep is a pursuit that requires a pretty specific dog to enjoy. Dog sports are not. I don't have anything against buying a dog with the intention of competing in agility with it. I just don't agree that agility or most other dog sports are activities that call for a custom-bred dog.

[sluj]

I don't think it's as simple as all that. I don't look at Fly as sports equipment. She fit the profile of what I wanted in a dog.

 

I posted my previous comment too quickly. What I should have said is, I don't agree with purchasing a dog solely for the purpose of engaging in a sport. i.e., if you want a dog for hobby herding, I feel that you should want a dog.

[Rave]

They got lucky.

 

But if someone were really interested in "training a dog to compete in USBCHA herding," they most probably wouldn't have purchased a sport-bred "Border Collie." They'd have gone for the real thing,

 

A

 

Interests change. Would you turn away a "sports" person who was interested in pursuing herding with their sports BC if you didn't approve of the pedigree? Instead of demeaning someone for their choice in breeders, when they were just following normal practice or what their instructors suggested, how about educating them in a more positive manner? (this is in general, not aimed specifically at stockdogranch). I've known a number of "converts" from sports to the herding world. Dog sports competitors are just as passionate about their hobby as hobby herders are about theirs. That passion could very easily turn towards trialling, then perhaps even sheep ownership down the road. Hell the very guy who coined the phrase Barbie Collie started out in agility! Education goes a long way... and no one is going to be very receptive to learning if they're being critisized for their choice of breeders before they "knew better."

[Katelynn & Gang]

I just want to clear a few things up.

 

Just because someone has livestock and Border Collies DOES NOT make them a "WORKING BREEDER."

 

Just because puppies are born and raised in a barn DOES NOT make them "WORKING BRED."

 

Just because you had the misfortune of getting a Border Collie from someone with livestock and Border Collies without doing your homework and getting educated on what IS and ISN'T a working breeder DOES NOT make CORRECT working bred dogs crazy, unable or unsound. It ONLY proves that just MAYBE you have no idea what you SHOULD and SHOULDN'T be looking for in a breeder and just MAYBE you should listen to people who do such for a living or a life hobby.

 

There is a MUCH better reason to buy a dog for the hobby of herding rather then sports BECAUSE herding TAKES quality breeding for traits that MUST be bred for. There are VERY FEW dogs which have the talent or can take the training needed to compete in ISDS type trials and be in any form successful. THERE ARE MILLIONS of dogs (mix and purebred) which can be trained to compete in agility, flyball, dock dogs and obedience (millions of which are PTS daily BTW!) just as good, if not better then those breeding bred for such a silly purpose.

 

Far as I can tell, there is one simple and very good reason to breed sport collies: the folks willing to pay 1,000-2,000 dollars for a hope and a dream.

Katelynn

[juliepoudrier]

Laura,

I don't think in general that folks are criticizing people for choices they made before they "knew better." I think this forum has been fairly consistent in the stance of "what you have is what you have, but try to educate yourself next time." I certainly understand the motivation behind people who breed for sports and people who buy for sports, but I don't have to agree with it. I'm sure I'll offend some of you with the following comments, but I think they bear repeating (since others have already alluded to the same thing in this thread). Like others here have said, sports breeding seems to select for a very few specific traits, and what I don't get is that apparently these same sports folks advocate breeding for sports seem to get that when conformation breeders are breeding for just a few specific traits (looks-based in their case) they're essentially changing the breed to something else, but then can't extrapolate that same idea to sports breedings. The stock working border collie is a complete package of complex traits, and singling out just a few of them and breeding just for those does change the breed several generations down the line (that's how we have Barbie collies vs. border collies now, isn't it?). Granted, at least some sports breeders are infusing working bloodlines back in, but I think, despite vast evidence to the contrary in the conformation world, people somehow believe they can put the "herding back in the herding dog" once it's been bred out for generations of breeding for something else. The point has been made over and over that dogs of any breed can excel at agility, whereas the same cannot be said about stockwork. But I think people are so blinded about needing a dog to *win* at agility that they go looking for guarantees from top agility competitors, and of course nothing will do but a sport collie. And I see the same sort of working dog bashing going on in the sports breeding community that already goes on in the conformation community. "Those dogs are raised in barns. They have poor temperaments. Working breeders don't do health checks." All the stuff that is patently untrue, or at least not exclusive to working breeders. It's pretty sad, really, that people who choose to breed border collies for other things (sports, looks) have this need to denigrate the working-bred dogs to justify their own choices. Too bad so many folks are gullible enough to buy into it.

 

J.

[DTrain]

I am somewhat out of touch with the rest of the world, I only know stock dog breeders and stock dog training but I am getting an education quickly. People make choices based on their needs, expectations and level of information whatever that may be. I have recently experienced the, OH, they are just working dogs attitude and of course there will be people who believe that a sport bred border collie or a conformation bred border collie is something superior to the plain old bred for stock wort border collie. I greatly object to taking a border collie especially from working lines and breeding it in a different direction such as sports but as long as there are people who wish to have a specifically bred and trained dog breeders will go in that direction. Is it not in the marketing. If I am a breeder of sport BC's would it not be in my best interest to claim that my dogs are something above and beyond a simple herding dog. If a customer wants a fly ball dog they will go to a sport breeder of top fly ball dogs. To confirm their decision they then need to claim that their dog is something special above and beyond a simple herding dog. Lets face it, the border collie is going in a number of different directions and that is driven by need and desire and the bucks. How many years ago was it that a border collie was considered to be just a farm dog, most people had no idea what they are. And then came the great revelation that these dogs are amazing and they can do all sorts of things and in many cases much better than any other breed at their own game. Our loved stock dog is becoming something else and like it or not that is exactly the way it is going to continue to go. As long as there are people who want and desire designer, and that applies to everything in life, we will have designer dogs. My simple bred for work BC's may to some people be unfortunate mis-fits who are under-bred and people can feel sorry for me that my dogs are not bred up to the latest and greatest standards but I really don't care. Border collies have moved from the farm to the big city and so have I but my dogs will remain the same and so will I but is it not true that others with other interests will take the border collie and mold it and blend it into something better. At least they will think so and because they have done it they will need to sell it as such. I had a lady yesterday approach me at a vet clinic. She asked me if I show my dogs, she said, border collies are they not. I said they are and no, they are working dogs. Her answer, thats to bad, they are such great looking dogs, my husband and I are thinking of getting one. I left.

[MrSnappy]

and no one is going to be very receptive to learning if they're being critisized for their choice of breeders before they "knew better."

 

I'm confused about what conversation you're having, because it doesn't really seem to be in line with the rest of the discussion. You've taken it to a whole other place, and that's a place where defensive noobs who have their knickers in a twist live. After 7 years on this board, haven't you moved out of that neighborhood?

 

And Kim:

 

My next borderjack may come from a sport breeder or may come from rescue. I won't know what I will do until the time comes.

 

I'm sorry to have to point out that any time you publicly announce that you are happy and willing to give your money to someone who deliberately crossed a terrier with a border collie for breeding purposes in exchange for one of their offspring, you are advocating for the market for sport bred mutts. A happy customer is the best PR, isn't that right? And yet the only reason for anyone to breed such a mix is to produce fast height dogs - if that sits okay on your conscience, that's fine - but admit it at least. Don't dance around it with warm fuzzy phrases about how border collies mixes are special and healed you at bad times in your life etc. etc. While those things may be true, they are not the reason your "breeder" bred borderjacks, now are they?

 

I think that what is a bit mystifying to some of is the notion that (some of) the same persons who purport to love the border collie breed can in the same breath advocate for the breeding of dogs who do not ultimately resemble the prototypical border collie, and in some/many cases, advocate for the creation of dogs like borderjacks, the breeding of which do NOTHING for the BC (but lots for flyball people). It seems - at least to me - sadly hypocritical.

 

 

RDM

[SS Cressa]

The post clearly says the "pup" was 11 months old and fully trained to work. I know this is difficult to comprehend but the question was how the pup got trained from 7 months to 11 months.

 

That is a very short time, but I think we all agreed we'd like to see that youngster in action.

 

I hope you read more thorougly on those contracts from your sport breeder.

 

eta at 13 months our Aggie's sire had already won his first Open trial so "pup" is a rather poor of a description. Some dogs train early, thought we will all agree that a true "pup" of weaning age remains a mystery. Pay for it at your own risk.

 

If this pup is soo good has anyone actually heard of him outside of this post? This pup should be taking the herding trial by storm and whipping everyone else butt.

 

Sorry I am confused an 11 month old PUPPY being sold for $8000+ or was $23000?! and your telling me that top herding dogs/bitches pup only go for $600?! I think I might brought a pup from the wrong sport... (sarcasm)

[SS Cressa]

All of the working BC we got WERE from WORKING LINES. All of their parents work the sheep (help move them to a different pasture, help gather them to bring them home, etc) unless thats not consider work any more?! Did I watch them actually Herd NO! It would like be asking a herd only home to critic me on my agility performance and what I need to improve.

 

First the sport people were ask why did you buy a pup from working/sport parent now we are being almost attack/ belittle for choosing a sport breeding.

 

OP if you didn't want us to answer honestly then don't post your question. What? did you want us all to denounce the sport breeding and agree with you that the only right breeding is from working parents?! Sorry thats not going to happen.

 

I was debating if I wanted to post an answer and I had thought that people would appreciated finding out the other side. Guess I was wrong!!!

 

As for the sport tugging dog. The only dog that actively is a tug demon is my bitch who come from WORKING parents. and I taught her it so she wouldn't nip my legs and because it a GREAT REWARD for my dog.

Someone must have forgotten to tell my SPORT border collie that he is suppose to like tugging he prefer treats any day.

 

SSC

[juliepoudrier]

If this pup is soo good has anyone actually heard of him outside of this post? This pup should be taking the herding trial by storm and whipping everyone else butt.

 

Sorry I am confused an 11 month old PUPPY being sold for $8000+ or was $23000?! and your telling me that top herding dogs/bitches pup only go for $600?! I think I might brought a pup from the wrong sport... (sarcasm)

SS Cressa,

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here, but I'll try again since you seem to be making no effort to understand what Wendy was trying to say. You're talking about two separate dogs here, both of which were sold at auction. I don't think I need to repeat myself about how auctions can create inflated prices--bidding wars and all that.

 

The pup that was sold for $8k was sold in the UK. We may or may not hear about it again, depending on what its new owner is doing with it. The right dog in the right hands at the right time probably could be trained up to a good standard in four months. The dog that sold for $23k was sold here in the U.S. at the Red Bluff Bull Sale. As for as I know the new owner has no plans to trial and was looking for a superior dog to work on her cattle operation. As Wendy (or someone) pointed out a good working dog can take the place of two or three human workers, so $23k is a relatively small investment when compared to salaries and benefits for the human workers the dog is capable of replacing. Note that the woman who bought the dog didn't fork over that sort of money so she could win at a sport; she did it so she could efficiently handle her cattle in her operation cost effectively. In other words, she made a smart business decision that should save her time and money in the long run.

 

Traditionally, pups from top herding dogs go for around $600. Why don't they go for more? For the reasons that have already been explained here ad nauseum: a pup from a good working breeding has the potential to be as good as or better than the parents, but there are no guarantees, and therefore what the buyer is paying for is potential not proof of anything, and most farmer types just aren't going to pay a lot of money for something that is unproven, and rightfully so. I don't understand why that's such a difficult concept to wrap one's head around. Paying $1200 for a pup doesn't give any better guarantee of how that pup will turn out than paying $600 for it will. The people who charge more are able to do so because the market is there and the people doing the buying are paying for a dream and are willing to pay more for that dream.

 

Proven working dogs generally go for much more than $600, with dogs trained to the open trial level in the $6-8k range and up. Weren't you considering importing a pup from the UK? Did you ever figure out how much it would cost you to do so? I think when that topic came up, a number of folks told you that you could get the same bloodlines where you live and save money by not doing the importing. It makes no sense to me why someone would willingly pay more money for something of equal or lesser value than something that costs less. If I wanted a pup to do agility with, I'd spend maybe half as much by going to a working breeder, and if I had done my homework (which everyone should do no matter what the reason for buying) I could easily find a pup from a working breeder that would probably excel at agility. So why do folks line up to pay more money for what everyone here is claiming is essentially the same dog?

 

J.

[SS Cressa]

Hate to break all of your bubble but my sport border collie dad who came from barbie/sport line LOVES to herd and has started competing in USBCHA! Oh right he not supopose to do well at herding. Someone might need to tell the sport border collie?! Fast!!! before the working dog start loosing their edge. LOL

 

From his website:

(the first time he trial in USBCHA) he trialed in USBCHA Novice and qualified with multiple placements. He LOVES to herd.

[JLP]

I think its funny that people care what kinda dog anyone else wants or breeds for. If you want a sport dog buy one, if you want a herding dog buy one, if you want a flyball dog get you one. You got to be happy with your dog, thats the important factor. No one owns the border collie breed, we only own the dogs we have