Sport Collies

[SoloRiver]

OK, so I just spent some time perusing Sport Collie breeder websites and realizing there are way, way more of them than I thought there were out there. I mean, I am sure they have nice dogs and all, but what kept going through my head was, "Why? Why? What is the point?"

 

I was wondering if anyone, in a devil's advocate manner if necessary, could make a case for such breeding. Yeah, I know, it's not like we've never talked about Sport Collies here before, and we also know what the official stance of our parent organization is, and yes, I do spend probably too much time looking at websites from "herding" breeders and thinking the same thing ("Why? Why? Why?"). But I would really like to hear the other side of the story, especially since I know we have a not insignificant number of members who purchased, either knowingly or unknowingly, from sport breeders.

 

Thanks.

[Root Beer]

Disclaimer: I am not a breeder and never will be a breeder and I am not making a case for breeding anything. I am just giving the viewpoint of someone who does not work Border Collies on stock.

 

To someone who does not work dogs on stock, the idea of getting a dog bred for working stock will probably never factor into his or her thinking. Yes, it will if he or she is a member here, or if he or she happens to know people who work dogs on stock, etc., but your average Agility, Flyball, Obedience person is not "in the know" about the fact that Border Collies have the traits that make them good sport dogs because they are bred to work stock.

 

Many people seeking Border Collies for sports are seeking out their first Border Collie, many have had Border Collies before from other sport breedings. The notion of looking for a dog from actively working parents is not even on the radar.

 

I think the point of the breeders who are breeding Border Collies from sport dogs for sport handlers is to provide dogs to this market, which is alive and well. I hear it all the time at Agility trials, "I went to the DARK SIDE" or "I'm really thinking of going to the DARK SIDE." Most of these people aren't even going to think of going to sheep farms looking for their dogs. Most are not going to go to the big time sheep dog trials. Most are going to seek out a breeder who "specializes" in the type of dog that they are looking for. And most aren't going to go to rescue because they want to raise the dog their own way.

 

Now, I'm not saying that I would do things this way (obviously I didn't after being a member here for a few years - I adopted Dean from GHF), but it's what I see all around me in the sport dog world. I see it less in Freestyle. People still tend to do Freestyle with the dog that they have for the most part, but in Agility I see a lot of new pups who are destined to be Agility dogs and the ones that are Border Collies have fed the sport Border Collie market with their dollars. And from what I hear, Flyball seems a lot like Agility in that regard except that I hear mostly about people getting Border Jacks for Flyball.

 

The bottom line - the case - people want Border Collies bred for sports, and breeders are producing them. Yes, I know it dilutes working ability, etc., but most people really don't think in those terms.

[SoloRiver]

Well, yeah, I know that there's a market and that it is fed in part by ignorance and that most people don't know the first thing about how to find a working breeder, we have discussed that umpteen million times.

 

But my question was, could someone explain to me the arguments regarding what exactly the breeders are trying to produce, whether they are producing it, how these dogs are different/better suited/whatever to their intended purpose, what a buyer might expect, etc. It is apparent that many of these breeders are very responsible in the sense that they plan breedings carefully, place puppies carefully, don't breed much, etc. (just as it is apparent many of these breeders are basically mills). What argument would they make to me for why they do what they do? How do they feel like they are "improving" or "refining" the dogs from the breeding stock they start with? Are they getting what they select for? What characterizes these dogs? Anything? Nothing? (I mean other than candy fashion colors.)

 

I am guessing that more than one board member who purchased a Sport Collie pup is perfectly happy with her purchase and maybe even feels justified and would maybe even go back to this type of breeder again, and I am really trying to understand why.

 

ETA: I realize that different Sport Collie breeders are probably selecting for different things depending on what sport they favor -- in particular, the obedience breeders seem to stick to particular lines and get fairly involved in why they are breeding the specific combinations they breed. The same does not seem to be true of agility breeders, who as far as I can tell are selecting mainly for candy colors and "structure" (but maybe not, maybe there is something I am missing here). And then there are the flyball breeders who... well, I don't go into it because frankly, it will sound too mean.

[Pearse]

Well, yeah, I know that there's a market and that it is fed in part by ignorance and that most people don't know the first thing about how to find a working breeder, we have discussed that umpteen million times.

 

But my question was, could someone explain to me the arguments regarding what exactly the breeders are trying to produce, whether they are producing it, how these dogs are different/better suited/whatever to their intended purpose, what a buyer might expect, etc.

 

[Devil's Advocate] Why would the principles behind breeding sport collies be any different than those behind breeding stockdogs? If you are an agility fiend and want hyper-responsive, trainable, small border collies who turn on a dime, why not breed for those characteristics? You don't want an independent, calm, rangy dog with good distance endurance who can gather sheep on his own at a mile. You want something with higher percentage of fast-twitch muscle fibers for rapid acceleration over short distances, high energy, and totally focussed on the handler. In short, they only things you want in common with a stockdog are focus, drive, and trainability. So, breed for what you want. Those are the good breeders. The bad breeders are breeding for what sells. If red merles are "in" they'll produce red merles. Agility people who are too dumb to know a good dog from a bad one but once saw a red merle do well in a trial will buy them. Just like "herding" folk. [/Devil's Advocate]

 

I guess I don't get why anyone would be surprised by this. When people wanted leaner beef, ranchers bred for leaner beef. Now people want grass fed beef. Some ranchers are breeding for cattle that finish well on grass.

 

When people needed dogs who could work the hill country on the Scottish borders, they bred a bunch of dog breeds together until they got the Border Collie.

 

Now people want the "ULTIMATE AGILITY DOG^TM". So, they'll breed Border Collies to get one, or they'll breed Border Collies to Jack Russell terriers to get one, or they'll breed Border Collies to Whippets if they think that will work.

 

Pearse

[Shetlander]

What argument would they make to me for why they do what they do? How do they feel like they are "improving" or "refining" the dogs from the breeding stock they start with? Are they getting what they select for? What characterizes these dogs? Anything? Nothing? (I mean other than candy fashion colors.)

 

I am guessing that more than one board member who purchased a Sport Collie pup is perfectly happy with her purchase and maybe even feels justified and would maybe even go back to this type of breeder again, and I am really trying to understand why.

 

I'm completely sure what you're looking for, but Quinn is sports bred and yes, I'd say that I can't imagine a better dog for me personally. In the average sports person's mind, if you're looking for your first or next Border Collie, you tend to talk to other sports people about their Border Collies or breeders or what breeders they like. Just as working dogs are bred to produce the best possible working dog, agility breeders are breeding for what they see as the best possible agility dogs. They know that Dog A is a MACH 3 and Dog B is a MACH with a close relative on the World Team. To their mind these dogs are likely to produce wonderful agility dogs with lots of potential.

 

As you said, this has been discussed time and time on these boards. Sports breeders are breeding for versatility, for dogs that can "do it all." If you talk to sports people about going to working breeders, they will ask what have their dogs done in sports? If you can't tell them anything they find impressive, they are not very likely to pass up puppies from "proven" parents or breeders. You can give them all the information you want on why working bred dogs could kick butt in sports, but until they start seeing truly working bred dogs (not dogs with working lines) kicking butt in sports, they'll probably remain unconvinced.

 

I think RDM mentioned a while back how she's had some fosters who showed excellent potential to work stock but they were almost never taken even by people who were trialing as a hobby. Instead, those people wanted working bred dogs from known and respected parents. I think it is very similar thinking between the two groups of prospective owners, just with different criteria as to what they consider ability and achievement in a dog.

 

Someone on one of my lists decided to get her first Border Collie and solicited advice for choosing a breeder. I did my best to explain why a working bred dog would be a great route to go if she didn't want to go through rescue (which she had refused to do). She kept saying she had no interest in herding and she didn't want an ugly dog who would want to herd all the time. I could not convey to her that a good working dog should not be wanting to herd all the time if he was off stock. I couldn't convince her that they could have wonderful temperaments and structures or that they came in a variety of looks, some of which she'd find very pleasing. She was a sports person who also placed great emphasis on a dog's appearance and she wanted big, fluffy along with intense drive from proven performance dogs. She has since reserved a puppy from a Very Big Name sports breeder.

[SoloRiver]

I guess I don't get why anyone would be surprised by this. When people wanted leaner beef, ranchers bred for leaner beef. Now people want grass fed beef. Some ranchers are breeding for cattle that finish well on grass.

 

Oh, I'm not surprised by it, I just remain perplexed because it seems like it's reinventing the wheel while at the same time selecting for the lowest common denominator. What I am wondering is if there really is some "sports-ability" that you can select for and that this selection is working and I am just not seeing it.

 

So, you look at Thoroughbred racehorses which have been selected for running speed over given distances (depending on the lines) and for most of the history of Thoroughbred breeding, the horses have improved by this yardstick. They have gotten faster. Lately they apparently aren't getting any faster, suggesting that variation in the various characters making up speed is no longer there (in the elite racehorses) and that it is no longer possible to select for "faster," but for most of their history, they were indeed getting faster and "better" by that yardstick.

 

What is the yardstick for Sport Collies? Is there an objective yardstick? Are the dogs actually getting better in that context?

 

From my observations it seems like a lot of dogs at agility trials are small, small-boned, short-coupled and relatively square, often almost Sheltie-like in overall gestalt in that they sometimes don't seem to have very much substance or bone, and very round-eyed (which may be the influence of Barbie Collie admixture, I don't know). And they very often come in odd colors, especially merle, much more often than would be expected by chance. Behaviorally they mostly appear extremely handler focused, but that could be a matter of training (I suspect you could make 99.9% of Border Collies appear just as handler-focused with a little work), and they often seem obsessed with tug toys to the point of mindlessness, but that could be a matter of training/management as well.

 

I don't know if this means that the dogs I am looking at are (1) bred for sports or that (2) this is the phenotype that succeeds and I am looking at a sample of dogs that has been weeded of unsuccessful phenotypes or (3) the same two or three breeders are producing most of these dogs. Are Sport Collies demonstrably different, and actually better at dog sports, or is it a matter of perception?

[Shetlander]

Are Sport Collies demonstrably different, and actually better at dog sports, or is it a matter of perception?

 

Right now, by sheer numbers at least around where I live and trial, Sports Collies dominate in agility. I think this creates a snowball effect where more and more competitors go to sports breeders to get dogs who then often do very well. Does that mean the working bred dog wouldn't do just as well? No, but there isn't the same amount of "proof" out there at the shows.

 

Height is important because it dictates the size jump and there is the perception that if you can get a BC at Sheltie height, you can really clean up due to not as much fierce competition as at regular BC height.

 

Color is important because, well, because. Sports people like dogs in different colors and looks in a dog are important to many people to various degrees.

 

And yes, tugging is HUGE in agility often precisely because of training. There are articles and workshops on teaching your dog to tug and to find tugging the best reward ever. Some people go so far as to pronounce that if you dog won't tug, you won't have the drive you need to truly succeed. Your dog must tug!

[2 Devils]

Well we all know I have a border collie/jrt mix who was bred for sports. He is all my all time favorite dog. Yes I got lucky with him and his temperament. Do I want another one? Yes I do. Now I did hear about his breeding within days of finding out my heart dog has cancer and maybe a couple months to live. I was distraught when we decided to get him but I do not regret getting him.

 

Anyways, I think people go to sports breeders for the same reason as herding folks go to herding folks and show folks go to show folks.

 

If you see a line of dogs is proven in their given sport, the person feels it may give them a leg up and make them more competitive. Would herding dogs be just as competitive very possibly but until there are more herding bred dogs playing sports and winning you won't see as many herding dogs in sports. And yes I know these lines sport lines were many times originating from herding lines but folks don't think of it that way.

 

Part of the problem could also be finding a herding breeder who will sell a sports person a dog knowing the dog will most likely never see stock. There are many herding breeders out there that will but then again it would take a lot more research to find said breeders. You cannot really come to a board who is preserving the working border collie and ask which herding breeder will sell to said person who won't take dog to stock and will only play sports. When people come to the boards and ask these kind of questions - even with just simple where do I find a reputable breeder people do slam them, suggest they should only get a rescue, and sometimes folks are very nice in the response but the person takes it wrong (the whole no one told them what they wanted to hear) etc... Offline someone may actually respond with some breeders but I don't know.

 

I know some sports breeders and their dogs are not easy to live with. Because of the issues I have with my border collie I don't know if I want another border collie. If I did get another one, I would definitely look more at herding lines with tested temperaments.

 

Tugging is a huge deal to most sports people. I think tugging makes a person interact with their dog instead of just handing food, a ball, etc... I prefer to tug with my dogs in flyball BUT out of my 4 dogs only one tugs on the lanes. I prefer to work with what works for the dog so I don't force the tug. My borderjack is pretty darn fast running for a ball. My toy poodle is extremely fast on the lanes for his breed and size. My border collie - yeah well she has been pulled from competition for now. My acd is the one who tugs. She is pretty darn fast even at 10 yrs old and 2 TPLO surgeries and was trained when I did not know anything about flyball. Sometimes tugging is taught so the handler can actually catch their dog so it does not rerun itself, chase after whatever, etc... Obviously, I don't think tugging is a must to become the best sports dog around. Then again, I am not a top trainer competing at the top of anything in the sports world.

 

To me, flyball is a sport and something I should enjoy. My dogs are pets first. They have a home whether they compete or not. They won't be rehomed because they don't work out. The rehoming of a dog because it does not do what it was bred for or is not as fast is something I have problems with.

[border_collie_crazy]

sport breeders are not breeding for quite the same traits is the thing, while working breeders are looking for exellence on stock, which requires many traits in balance, sport breeders want only 3 things-drive, size, speed, and non of these are wanted in moderation. I think sport breeders are aware that working BCs have the traits that make BCs great sport dogs, but sport breeders want certain of these traits exaderated. are they accomplishing anything? yup. around here anyway. the working bred flyball BCs are very good, but only the flyball bred ones are running 3 seconds or faster. I dont know if this is the case elswhere though, I speak only of my own city, where Flyball is the prodominant dog sport.

[in2adventure]

OK, I may be sticking my neck out here, but here goes.....isn't one of the greatest BC traits is their versatility? There's a BC for everyone. Couch potatoes, dogs with on/off buttons, high drive fenzy types, therepy dogs, cattle workers, sheep workers, etc, etc, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the herding folks breed for specific traits to work specific live stock? Then why not breed (responsibly of course) for traits that work well in agility and flyball? The breed, overall, is awesome. I wouldn't think of owning anything else. I do agility, so when I went looking for a second dog I looked for specific traits (I adopted). If I was looking to compete in herding, I would look for those traits, etc.

 

I don't think people are promoting "sport breeding", I think they are promoting lines that work well in their field sport of choice. It's not like they are breeding a bunch of Barbie dogs that only look pretty and give the breed a bad name by being....um.....not workable.

[Ooky]

I can see the argument for breeding for sport collies (don't agree with it though). But I also think selecting for the sport abilities will eventually give you a different dog.

 

Pearce's explanation is a good one. I've thought about this a lot. There's no getting around the fact that dog sports do not require the same skill set. A faster sprinter may be of more use in the flyball arena than the open field where a fast but steady stamina might be more required. You can tell just watching the Olympics that the sprinters have a different physique than the mid- and long-distance runners. Not to say extremely talented natural sprinters wouldn't come out of a working breeding, but I guess the difference to sport breeders is that, rather than looking at a gestalt set of skills, temperance, drive, stamina, etc. on stock, that simple one-dimensional ability to sprint (if its hot enough) may be enough of a reason to breed.

 

I think what you've got from the breeding on stockwork over the years is an extremely diverse set of phenotypes, b/c of what works for one dog/handler team may be different for another team. Melanie, does your research indicate anything about the general level of genetic diversity in BCs vs. other breeds? Allozymes or anything? My point being is that you seem to have a breed of versatile, generalist dogs. As far as I can tell with Odin, this has resulted in a "superdog", already better than almost every other type of pet dog we meet at: biddability, drive, speed, stamina (for a 5 mo old, especially!), intelligence, maneuverability, focus. But he wouldn't be faster than a greyhound or whippet, and he wouldn't be more maneuverable (probably) than a border-jack. Sports people -- in human sports too (coming from a family of multi-sport coaches) -- appreciate specialization and extremes - ie. on my dad's or brother's teams they'd definitely appreciate a human "Odin" but they'd DROOL over the human equivalent of a border-jack.

 

If a good sports breeder is actually breeding for specific ability and not candy colors, then they are likely to end up with more specialist lines, specialist phenotypes. eg. the mad hot sprinter in my example. Probably good for sport performance, but IMO bad for the breed. There's no way that agility is as demanding as stockwork - not that I've done either, mind you, but I've been around stock enough to know they can be unpredictable, hard to chase down, dangerous, or in danger, etc...in my mind a bigger set of issues to deal with, when selecting a breeding pair, than teeter/tunnel/tug-drive. And clearly the need to problem solve has given them their intelligence in the first place -- not sure how much of that is needed in dog sports? And it seems like you'd have to breed for specialization differently in disc dog vs. agility vs. flyball vs. dock dogs, etc. The stockdog breeding gave us dogs versatile enough to produce excellent competitors in ALL those arenas. JMO, from someone who thinks their "superdog" probably won't be great on stock anyway, and is looking forward to doing dogsports.

[Pippin's person]

I think one of the things many sports breeders will argue (and I've heard them--and it's been discussed here before) is that they are breeding sounder dogs with better conformation (in the generic, not show, sense) as indicated by various kinds of testing and by looking for particular conformation--they will only breed dogs that have been CERF'ed and Baer'ed and OFA'ed, etc.. I know of agility people who specifically won't buy dogs from big hat livestock folks because (ETA: they perceive that) those folks don't do all of these physical tests.

 

I also think, increasingly, sport breeders are bringing in "herding" lines into their breedings in order to say that their dogs come from "herding" lines. I know of a sports breeder who wanted to breed her sport bitch to the "son of big hat's great dog." She advertised the pups as coming from excellent herding lines and sold them for $1200 a piece--all sold before the breeding took place into high-level competitive sport homes. I know of someone else whose dog never got out of the round pen, but who advertised the dog has having a livestock background. Again, all pups sold before they were on the ground to competitive sport homes. A lot of people who do dog sports want dogs who *could* do what the breed was historically bred to do even if these particular dogs won't be doing that in these people's homes.

 

One issue, I think, is that many of these folks have a different way of assessing whether the dog *could* do what it was bred to do than people who work their dogs on livestock. For many of them that assessment comes from the breeding rather than the work. I'm not sure that's all that different from some livestock folks who will breed a young, not-yet proven dog on the strength of the lines behind it. But, regardless, the sport breeder can say, "not only is this a great breeding because this dog comes from 'herding' lines, but the parents have these tests, the pups are guaranteed, etc." Increasingly, anyway, that's how I think one might try to convince Melanie to buy one of their dogs.

 

I don't know this for certain, but it seems to me that many sports breeders trade on their ability to produce sport dogs (ETA: in any given litter at any given time) rather than their ability to develop a line over time--for most of the sports-bred dogs I know about (including the two that I have), there doesn't seem to be all that much discussion of the "line" beyond the fast, quick turning, biddable and responsive parents.

 

I actually think the dogs you are describing seeing at agility trials are likely to be conformation/sport crosses--merle doesn't fly (yet) in the show ring, but it's the bomb in the sport venues--so you cross a conformation champion with a merle sport bitch (bonus points if she also looks at sheep with her tail down once in a while). The tugging and handler focus is mostly trained-in rather than bred-in I think. I haven't ever heard someone who breeds pups for sport talk about those as qualities they are looking to breed in (biddability, yes, but most top-level agility folks seem to really want dogs who can be handler-focused or obstacle-focused depending on what they are asked to do).

 

Like Shayna, the flyball BCs I know of who are individual speed demons were sport bred and I think many of the top agility BCs were as well (though again, I think more of them have a "herding" dog behind them--more so than most flyball BCs). Agility times are also getting faster--but it's hard to know how much of that is about vast improvements in handling.

[Maralynn]

.....isn't one of the greatest BC traits is their versatility?

 

But the vesatility originally came from breeding for herding. So if a working bred BC can do it all, why do you need to breed for anything else?

 

I think alot of it comes down to the fact that you usually stick to your own circle - or the circle you want to be in - when choosing a pup. And most people who want to compete at agility believe that they'll have the best chance with a proven sport dogs.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

It's hard to pick a winner at a sport from working parents. Not because they aren't there, but because it's a different and not terribly accessible culture (to those with minimal interest in livestock work), and there is so much variation in the breed. You can't just go to a couple of competitions and spot the ones with the greatest potential for sports.

 

And higher-level sports trainers are usually choosy about the types of dogs they want to work with. They want a puppy so it's not "spoiled" and they can "start from scratch." They want the kind of drive and personality that they know they perform best with. So most of the time they'll go to the known quantities - the breeders who produce the type of dog they consider best for them.

 

That, of course, enourages breeders to produce more. They get feedback from trainers and handlers about the accomplishments of their dogs. They use those accomplishments to generate more business. People continue to tell them how wonderful their breeding programs are. And so on.

 

Instead, those people wanted working bred dogs from known and respected parents. I think it is very similar thinking between the two groups of prospective owners, just with different criteria as to what they consider ability and achievement in a dog.

 

Well, no. As someone who depended on rescues and second-hand dogs for ten years to try to run a farm, I can tell you there is a real reason to go with more of a known factor when you are dealing with livestock (eg, parents who work, from lines that are bred for excellence in the kind of work you do). If you have to work stuff out when training an agility dog, the worst that might happen is that you might not advance as fast as you'd hoped. Slower times, lowered expectations.

 

Livestock learn from the mistakes your dog makes. Stock, or dogs, or people, can all get injured if you can't overcome bad breeding, can't advance beyond a certain level, or can't get past a bad habit or poor beginning. It's harder to learn from a dog that doesn't have all the pieces in the right place.

 

This doesn't mean that every rescue is like that. This year I placed two different dogs as working dogs because they did have all the pieces in the right places. But it took me a year of working with one dog, and six months with the other, to determine that to my satisfaction (and that of two or three other trainers - second and third opinions that I always make sure to get). It's not something you can determine from a few sessions in the round pen unless all that dog is destined to do is work sheep in a round pen.

 

This doesn't apply to weekend warriors, of course, where it's the adopter's choice to work or not and the situations are usually very controlled (and don't involve livelihood of the handler or the health of the stock). I think of those homes more as "sport" placements when I'm considering where to rehome a dog.

[DTrain]

I would think that if a person is looking for an agility BC that they would go to someone who claimed to be an agility dog breeder. This will probably get me into trouble but I would think making the claim that you breed agility dogs from agility stock would impress the customer and help set the price. A customer who wants an agility BC would not go to a stock dog breeder but may be rather impressed by a breeder who claims to breed agility dogs and they are better for than purpose than a stock dog. The purpose of breeding these creatures is to create a market where there is a demand. For the same reason when I bought my dog Pete I went to a top stock dog breeder and got an exceptional stock dog. Oddly enough my youngest dog Dave who is Petes son is going to be a good stock dog and that may be expected but it also appears he is going to be a good agility dog. But Dave does not come from agility dog lines so of what real value is he to someone looking for only an agility dog that could perhaps perform at high levels. There is nothing in Daves history to claim he will be a good agility dog but Dave does not know that. To some people it is all in the name, it is all in the breeding. It is not nessesarily the breeder but the expectations of the buyer. What came first the buyer or the breeder. My wifes sister bought two Belgian sheep dogs from a top breeder who reportedly had top dogs. They payed a fortune for these creatures and flew them half way around the world. She is absolutely certain she got the best Belgian sheep dogs she could possibly get and for some reason that was important to her. The dogs are pets and they do nothing of what they were bred for and they never will but it is important to her to be able to say that they are the very best dogs money can buy.

[Pippin's person]

....Oddly enough my youngest dog Dave who is Petes son is going to be a good stock dog and that may be expected but it also appears he is going to be a good agility dog. But Dave does not come from agility dog lines so of what real value is he to someone looking for only an agility dog that could perhaps perform at high levels.

 

I think for some agility breeders, particularly those that place dogs in competitive homes, he'd have exponential value because *he* is a good agility dog AND has a personal livestock background to boot. If he starts winning agility trials, don't be surprised if people start telling you about their great little bitch......

[Shetlander]

This doesn't apply to weekend warriors, of course, where it's the adopter's choice to work or not and the situations are usually very controlled (and don't involve livelihood of the handler or the health of the stock). I think of those homes more as "sport" placements when I'm considering where to rehome a dog.

 

That was the group of people I was referring to and how they appeared to me as well. I don't trial so I won't try to debate where sport/hobby ends. And even with as little as I know about stock work (from watching Quinn's lessons), I do understand that you can't tell everything you need to know from a dog's few times in a round pen.

[C Crocker]

I think one of the things many sports breeders will argue (and I've heard them--and it's been discussed here before) is that they are breeding sounder dogs with better conformation (in the generic, not show, sense) as indicated by various kinds of testing and by looking for particular conformation--they will only breed dogs that have been CERF'ed and Baer'ed and OFA'ed, etc.. I know of agility people who specifically won't buy dogs from big hat livestock folks because those folks don't do all of these physical tests.

 

 

I do not know a thing about sport dogs, but your paragraph concerning working breeders is quite a generalization. The person I bought my working border collie from , Suzy Applegate, is a top Open trainer/handler and I assure you all of her dogs have had hips/elbows done , eyes cerf'ed and dna'd. Not to mention her dogs trial to older ages and are used on the ranch for daily work, which is a true test of soundness. So if I were to generalize by my experience I would come up with different results that you.

It is most likely safe to say not all of your sports breeders nor all of my working breeders do the tests, but it's not safe to generalize numbers.

 

Carolyn

[DTrain]

I think for some agility breeders, particularly those that place dogs in competitive homes, he'd have exponential value because *he* is a good agility dog AND has a personal livestock background to boot. If he starts winning agility trials, don't be surprised if people start telling you about their great little bitch......

 

I did consider what Dave may turn out to be but did not think much beyond stock and goose work and only have considered agility recently when he began to show signs of talent like exceptional speed and drive. This was not expected since he comes from a very long line of good herding dogs that have been bred to work sheep and heavy stock. His herding ability is excellent so in this respect he has followed his line perfectly. He also displays unusual traits that do not seem to show up in his line with any other dog. But, I expected Dave to turn out to be rather large and heavy. That is the picture I got when I looked back on his family. His mother and certainly his father are large heavy dogs as is his brothers and sisters and uncles and aunts and his grand parents. In fact I choose Daves line because I wanted a large dog that would work with a slower thinkers pace like his father. With this in mind I had Dave fixed early knowing that his line was safe and I did not want to project his line past his father. I did exactly the right thing by going to a top breeder and looking carefully into his family to have an educated idea of what Dave would be. However, I did not get what I thought I would and that has come as a complete surprise. Dave is light and sleek and fast and wants to work at rocket speeds. He is tall and very long. He is just over a year and he has some growing to do but he will not come close to his fathers size or the size of any of his family members. I am not complaining, this gives me an opportunity to get into agility and that is something I have never done with my dogs but I am looking forward to it. I guess sometimes no matter how careful one is in breeding there can be a surprise. I am not a breeder so I have no idea how this sort of thing can happen but had I left Dave intact I could have taken his line in a very different direction and maintained herding ability but at the same time develop an agility dog line. It would be interesting to go back into the lines of some of the top agility BC's to see how they have developed and if they came from top herding lines. Is herding ability valuable to agility BC breeders.

[Pippin's person]

I do not know a thing about sport dogs, but your paragraph concerning working breeders is quite a generalization. The person I bought my working border collie from , Suzy Applegate, is a top Open trainer/handler and I assure you all of her dogs have had hips/elbows done , eyes cerf'ed and dna'd. Not to mention her dogs trial to older ages and are used on the ranch for daily work, which is a true test of soundness. So if I were to generalize by my experience I would come up with different results that you.

It is most likely safe to say not all of your sports breeders nor all of my working breeders do the tests, but it's not safe to generalize numbers.

 

Carolyn

 

Just to clarify--this isn't *my* argument whatsoever and of course, I agree that it is a gross generalization and likely false on both sides (as you point out). And I should have been more careful to say that I know of people who won't buy working bred dogs because of *their perception* that working breeders don't do these tests.

 

This is just one of the arguments I've heard by several sports breeders (and purchasers of sport bred dogs) in terms of making the case for their breeding choices--not one I personally endorse at all.

[Sue R]

...I expected Dave to turn out to be rather large and heavy. That is the picture I got when I looked back on his family. His mother and certainly his father are large heavy dogs as is his brothers and sisters and uncles and aunts and his grand parents. In fact I choose Daves line because I wanted a large dog. With this in mind I had Dave fixed early...I did not get what I thought I would and that has come as a complete surprise. Dave is light and sleek and fast and wants to work at rocket speeds. He is tall and very long. He is just over a year and he has some growing to do but he will not come close to his fathers size or the size of any of his family members.

 

With my emphasis noting "fixed early", I think you may have answered part of your own surprise as to why Dave turned out long and lean. Early neutering of males tends to result in a longer-legged, lighter-framed, narrower-headed dog, due to not having the male hormones affecting the growth patterns and producing male secondary sex characteristics.

 

I did the same with my first working-bred dog and will wait for more maturity next time (if) I get another male pup.

[DTrain]

With my emphasis noting "fixed early", I think you may have answered part of your own surprise as to why Dave turned out long and lean. Early neutering of males tends to result in a longer-legged, lighter-framed, narrower-headed dog, due to not having the male hormones affecting the growth patterns and producing male secondary sex characteristics.

 

I did the same with my first working-bred dog and will wait for more maturity next time (if) I get another male pup.

 

I wish now I would have waited a little longer. I am still a little surprised even with fixing him early that he is such an extraordinary departure from the dogs in his line. I would like to see Dave a little heavier for stock work although he is fine for goose work. I am not disappointed but if he finishes his growth in his current proportions he is going to be a very different looking BC. If he has good body strength he is going to be a very fast dog and at the moment he seems to be developing quite normally. I have had some trouble in his herding training to slow him down if for no other reason than for me to keep up with him. He moves faster than I think. I am looking forward to getting him into agility. If we can train him in flyball he may be an outstanding runner.

[C Crocker]

Just to clarify--this isn't *my* argument whatsoever and of course, I agree that it is a gross generalization and likely false on both sides (as you point out). And I should have been more careful to say that I know of people who won't buy working bred dogs because of *their perception* that working breeders don't do these tests.

 

This is just one of the arguments I've heard by several sports breeders (and purchasers of sport bred dogs) in terms of making the case for their breeding choices--not one I personally endorse at all.

[/quoteRobin,

 

I figured it not to be your thoughts and I should have written it in such a way. I have virtually no experience with sport dog people ( I assume you mean agility ?) , other than my chiropractor works on hundreds of agility dogs and I have met a few people where I take lessons on sheep. These people seem to do quite well in agility but they want to try their dog on sheep. I do find it interesting that they barely look at my slight, whippety looking, smooth coat tri color bitch, and I have had a few of them ask me if she is all border collie! They don't always know what to say when they ask where I got her and I said your stock teacher here bred her and I bought her from her!

 

 

From what I read here there seems to be a great divide between the sports folks and those who work/trial border collies, but I know so little about that sport side I can't comment with any accuracy on them.

 

Carolyn

[SS Cressa]

I can tell you why I choose a "sport" breeder over a working breeder for my latest pup. This is just my experience.

 

1.) The guarantee- health, temperament, drive, built. If something was the matter they would help you figure out what was going on or they are willing to take the dog back. They are just as concern about the pup as you. All of their dogs have their eyes CERF, CEA clear, BEAR tested, OFA certified (hips and elbows) every year.

 

We had raise or help raised 4 border collie from working farms...

-One border collie was too stress to work (do agility). She now lives with our brothers in MT and they tell us how she scared of livestock?!

-The second border collie loves agility but his built makes its so he injurer's he back easy. When we introduce him to livestock in our herding class he only wanted to bark at it or hide behind mom.

-The third border collie was very sick as a pup and could care less about humans for the first year. She has noise sensitive and motion sensitive. For the first year and a half she fear bars dropping on jumps so would refuse to go over them. Same diff with teeters the noise and the motion scared her. After a lot of practice, time, and patience. She now LOVES agility and is excelling at it. When we introduce her to livestock she loved it. (She is the reason I adore border collies )

-The fourth border collie had mental issues?! It wasn't till he was six months that we started noticing them. He couldn't handle pressure. The house put too much pressure on him, dogs put too much pressure on him, even if they were two rooms over. By 9 months we cancel all of his play groups. By a year he had to start being kept separated from the pack. We brought him to vets to find if there were any underlining health issues (there wasn't). We brought him to trainers to find if we were handling it wrong (we weren't), we brought him to behaviorists to find out what was causing it (they couldn't figure it out). He was find toward humans but the pressure of everything else he couldn't handle?! We told the breeder and he wasn't much help. (Not much he could do really)

 

After the fourth border collie we wanted a pup that had a good solid temperament!

 

2.)How the pups are raised:

-All of the working breeder I contacted had their pup whelp and raised outside in the corner of the barn. The pups are around different noise and are use to people coming and going. But having that little of 1 on 1 contact with them in my mind, how are they going to know the pup temperaments, quirks, drive, fears? How well are these pups are going to be socialized (old people, adults, kids, big people, little people)?

-The sports breeder I know almost exactly how the pups will be raised. They are whelp and kept inside. They will be well socialize as a young pup and have experience a lot of different experience. They will become accustom to hearing all different types of noises (common and uncommon), and sights. They will do the Early Neurological Stimulation protocol. Starting from birth they are handle each day. Research has proven that the more a pup's brain absorbs from birth to 16 weeks the stronger they are both emotionally and physically. They realize not all border collies are suitable for a working home and help place a pup accordingly.

 

I had one working owner get mad at me when I ask if the pup I was interested in could be kept an xtra week because I wasn't comfortable a taking a pup at 6 weeks of age! I had even offer to pay for boarding the pup. I decided to pass on the litter because of it.

 

3.) Because of the parents- The litter I finally chose the mom did both excel herding and agility and came from awesome lines. The dad did agility and obedience and was doing well at it and his parents had done hobby herding. His dad just recently started trial herding and seem to be excelling at it...

I knew how the parents were built, their drive, speed, and style. (Was told that the jumping style is partially inherited.) Dog that have poor form while jumping are more likely to pass it on to their kids(most likely something to do with their builds). I like how both of the parent jump and how responsive they were on course. I am able to see how they handle and for the most part am competing against them...

 

4.) Just too add. I don't really have a problem with working lines in sports. I was thinking about getting a sister/brother to the third border collie since I really like how she turn out. The breeding didn't take and the bitch shorty afterward got spayed because she was old.

-Our agility instructor always tell us "you are just as likely to get a farm dog that excel at agility as you will a sport bred one"

-The majority of BC competing in my area are from farms or are rescued. Although the "next generation" border collie are mostly sport bred. Mostly in my opinion we can see them compete, know the owner, know how they are/will be raised, and like what they produce.

 

Why I would consider breeding my sport border collie would be to improve the breed. He has an awesome temperament, a nice built, healthy, agile, a great drive, plus much more. Like his parent he would have to prove himself worthy of being bred. In order for me to breed him: he has to be able to do well in herding, as well as in agility. He would only be bred to a bitch that has also done well in herding and that can compliment him.

 

Hope I answer the question...

 

SSC

[Shetlander]

We had raise or help raised 4 border collie from working farms...

 

I don't know if I would have stayed with the breed after the experience you describe with your first 4 Border Collies. Yikes. Sounds like some breeds I've come to the conclusion I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole due to all their problems and issues. I hope your sports dog works out better for you, but you do understand that to these boards "improving the breed" means to breeding for working (herding) ability? That should include the qualities you like so well in your dog (temperament, build, health, drive) but the those qualities come together in a really good working (herding) dog.