raw diet

[Tea]

Hi everyone Tea here.

 

I have as a resource alot of meat, both deer and sheep.

 

What have you folks have sucess with feeding raw diet? What recipes do you have?

 

I also milk our goats and have alot of extra which I was thinking of clabbering and feeding to dogs/ It is raw milk and it doesn't seem to give them the runs they way processed milk does.

And of clabbered it is even better.

any suggestions?

 

We feed Zoo carnivore diet to the dogs but when we get low we feed Natural Balance to the dogs and save the ZCD for Wildlife. It would be nice to supplement dogs.

 

Thanks!

[D Strickland]

I've been feeding RAW for 6 years now. You can make it as easy or as complicated as you want. I've fed RAW both ways ... even went as far as to calculating Phosphorus to Calcium ratios. ( probably why my hair is now grey !!! LOL )

 

I've fed it all ... except for home cooked ... and the easiest is this ... feed whole meat and bones with some organs every once in a while.

 

The secret is a balanced diet over time ... not balanced every day.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I say YES on the raw diet! My non-working dogs thrive on an all or almost all raw diet. The others get only enough carbs (homecooked) to increase calories without messing up their mineral ratios.

 

I've been feeding RAW for 6 years now. You can make it as easy or as complicated as you want. I've fed RAW both ways ... even went as far as to calculating Phosphorus to Calcium ratios. ( probably why my hair is now grey !!! LOL )

I now use a spreadsheet and calculate everything for which the NRC has recommended values. No grey hair here, well, other than what I started that process with. I'm a control freak and got tired of changing things around hoping that "maybe" things would balance out over time. Plus we're on a budget so I can't spend a lot on novel proteins and oddball "parts" even though we grow some of it ourselves.

 

Anyway, my dog that was on a completely "meat and bones" diet, though he had a varied diet that was as close to "prey model" as I could get, was still deficient in some important nutrients. His mineral balance was way off, and some of the B vitamins that maintain brain function as we age (Ben's 12 going on 13), were almost completely missing.

 

His diet was the least deficient among all my gang, as it turned out. Ben eats all red meat - he's allergic to eggs and poultry. I had two dogs on mostly poultry, pork, and some red meat, because of the cost. The more poultry you add, the further it reduces iron, zinc, and copper in the diet.

 

Thus, I had some dogs that were getting half kibble and half chicken quarters with some organ meats, and occaional other "parts." Depending on the kibble, their diets were anything from mildly deficient to quite deficient, particularly if I was relying heavily on the chicken. EVO was the only one that I could go up to 50% chicken quarters and not really mess things up.

 

Dogs have really great abilities to store and draw on mineral reserves, so it's not a huge, huge deal. But I've seen some real benefits since taking the care to balance their diets (I ditched kibble entirely too - all but Ben get some homecooked plus raw). Ben has reached another level of improvement - he's gone all year with no major health crises, though he's been close a couple of times. We just had a flea outbreak (forgot the garlic in their food, doggone it) and he's been a little itchy but he's actually the least affected. My almost 15 year old dog looks really great, I think, after about five weeks on this new regime. I was having trouble with her coat not shedding right even with fish oil.

 

I do NOT give a variety - the dogs eat the same thing, pretty much, over a week's time period. I supplement to balance things out. Prey modelist purists don't like that idea. I've always supplemented though, even when I doing it more as a guess (note, I was pretty far off as to what needed supplementing!). It doesn't take much to even things out, but you can never get those things sufficiently in meat and bones unless you fed each dog their own sheep carcass, each week or two, including head, feet, all organs, eyeballs, tongue, spine, and skin.

 

Ben only needs copper, zinc, and choline, plus I give him extra B because he's got mild cognitive dysfunction. He also gets fish oil and vitamin E.

 

The other dogs who get a good bit of poultry have more zinc supplemented, and also get copper and manganese, plus the choline and fish oil. Lynn, my puppy, gets a vitamin C supplement as well to promote joint health, on the recommendation of a nutrition expert.

 

I used Monica Segal's book Optimal Nutrition plus the archives of her yahoo list, plus Nutritiondata.com, to compile the NRC information (like the RDA's for humans) and compare them to what I was actually feeding.

 

Then I came up with new diet plans that were balanced over a week. I guessed at lamb, because I can't get all the information for bone-in cuts that most people can't get. I averaged the info Monica gives for ribs (more meat) and shank (more bone) and I'm having a nutrition expert check my figures to be sure.

 

Ben's diet looks a lot like yours would, with lots of lamb and other red meat. A lamb/sheep cut into chunks yields a bit too much bone, making the calcium levels too high. Calcium binds zinc, making what little there is unavailable. Zinc is necessary for immune system operation and skin health, and it's also needed for the liver to repair itself from normal wear and tear. Ben has experienced slight elevations in liver values in the past associated with various infections, so I want to make sure his liver has a fighting chance to make it well into old age!

 

Ben eats, in one week:

2400 g lamb/beef heart, depending on what I've got (beef has more copper, so I have to adjust if I use that)

1000 g pork ribs

680 g lamb or goat "parts" depending on what I've got

170 g lamb or pork kidney (beef has too much copper)

12 oz can of wild salmon

 

He's retired from work, so the 1110 calories this provides a day is more than sufficient. It's still twice too much Calcium and Phosphorus but it can't be helped because of his allergies. These are at least balanced.

 

My other dogs' diets include cottage cheese, but fresh clabbered goat milk would be even better - lower in sodium.

 

 

Okay, didn't mean to write a book.

[diane allen]

Yes, I've fed raw for over five years. I don't have good access to raw meaty bones, so I follow Dr. Richard Pitcairn's diets. Variety is important! Probably 50% or more of my dogs' meat source is beef, since that's the cheapest and best source I have for 'good' (not quite organic) meat. They also get, at times, chicken, turkey, bison, elk, deer (only when my hunter-friends have excess!), canned salmon, canned mackeral (which has gotten hard to find!), and the occasional rabbit (NOT road kill!). Pitcairn's diets add lots of other things that some raw diet proponent pooh-pooh, but it has worked fine for me. I limit grains (mostly oats) but do feed a good variety of fruits and vegetables, and oh yes, lots of supplements (fish oil, bone meal, etc.).

 

diane

[1sheepdoggal]

I feel compelled to ask this, as I dont feed a raw diet. All my life and especially growing up it was ingrained in me, never feed dogs chicken bones and or pork bones, as they slinter and some how can hurt the dog. (dont ask me how, all I remember was that it could hurt the dog and that was enough for me) Is this a rule of thumb only for cooked bones, or is there some risk in feeding bones like pork and chicken raw as well, or is this just an old wives tale?

[Root Beer]

Is this a rule of thumb only for cooked bones, or is there some risk in feeding bones like pork and chicken raw as well, or is this just an old wives tale?

 

This rule of thumb is for cooked bones.

[Tea]

Thanks for all the info!

 

We calculate everything for wildlife but I never really thought about the raw stuff for our dogs.

 

The guy from Australia actually came out here.

 

Again thanks!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Thanks for all the info!

 

We calculate everything for wildlife but I never really thought about the raw stuff for our dogs.

 

The guy from Australia actually came out here.

 

Again thanks!

 

If you've got a tool to balance the wildlife diets, you can just plug in the NRC figures for dogs, which you can get either from the NRC 2006 Guidelines, if you have access to that, or Monica Segal's Optimal Nutrition if you don't (that costs about $25 versus the NRC book that is a couple hundred!).

 

Good luck!

[Bill Fosher]

I don't know about for dogs, but the NRC tables for livestock are available on line somewhere.

 

I've had very good luck feeding a diet very scientifically formulated by buying whatever I can get for cheap, and supplementing it with some more expensive muscle meat if I have to. (Usually cheap means chicken leg quarters or pork necks -- both too much bone and not enough muscle.)

 

All kidding aside, the one exception to balancing a diet over a week is puppies. They need every meal balanced until they're eight or 10 months old.

[Ooky]

As someone who periodically considers raw, then shies away, I really enjoy Becca's posts on the subject. I used to feed my rats raw and they have the same dietary requirements (give or take) and can eat most of the same things as people. Even with them, I supplemented with NutroMax low protein kibble to ensure they were getting enough of all their micronutrients, etc. I figure enriched foods (ie. power bars and breakfast cereals), vitamin supplements, and iodized salt kind of do the same thing for us in modern 1st world society, as it is only recently that large portions of the population aren't suffering from scurvy or goiter or gout or any number of other diseases based on imbalanced diets. (Well, I should mention those below the poverty line often do anyway, eating cheap processed foods all the time).

 

When DH worked at the shelter for several years, there were adoption counselors and trainers, etc., that tended to tout raw feeding across the board to friends, other random dog owners, adoptees, etc. He said the vets on staff were not down with this, because for the average person without a masters in veterinary nutrition or the willingness to spend countless hours learning the things you need to know to do it well, it's just safer and better for everyone to feed the dog a good formulated kibble.

 

Not that I claim I'll never try raw, and put in the effort. (I gotta learn feline physiology and nutrition to do it too, though - so it is daunting). As many nutritional imbalances take a while to show up and also there are complicated interactions with each dog's individual genetic needs and tolerances, I wouldn't know I was doing ok by just "winging it" (ha ha, pun intended).

 

Anyway, I just love how Becca is very informative and clearly indicates the difficulties in maintaining a balanced diet.

 

PS, don't wild dogs eat a lot of bugs in certain seasons? Does anyone add crickets or something? This is a real question.

[Lenajo]

All kidding aside, the one exception to balancing a diet over a week is puppies. They need every meal balanced until they're eight or 10 months old.

 

I've raised dozens of puppies from a variety of genetics over the years now (mixed breed, purebreds BC and otherwise) and balance over time (usually 1-2 weeks) and they've grown out very well. I've certainly had far less exhibition of OCD and HD that my kibble feeding friends and fellow breeders/rescuers have had.

 

Perhaps I'm just lucky

 

The implication here is that you need a spreadsheet or nutrition degrees to feet a pet properly. I don't think you do - in fact based on what I've seen I pretty much know you don't. You need some basic knowledge yes...

 

A lot of what Becca appears to be talking about is coming from the K9Nutrition author. I have her book, I've read her email list in detail, and for kicks I just bought and read her booklet on feeding the Border Collie. I'm not a nutrition expert, but I can tell what I do know well (genetics of this breed for example) her information is so shoddy in that regard in that book...I frankly find it difficult to believe the rest of what she says! If anything the more I read her "facts" the more I doubt.

 

I think the scientific/nutrition gurus would like us to think feeding is much harder than it is.

[soloagility]

Thank you Lenajo!

 

I've been feeding raw for 3 months now, and while I did quite a bit of research before taking the plunge, I was beginning to have second thoughts lately.

 

With your raw-raised litters, have the dogs continued to eat raw and thrive throughout their lives?

[Ooky]

I think the scientific/nutrition gurus would like us to think feeding is much harder than it is.

 

I have no doubt, just with holistic nutrition in humans, wildlife, or any other animal, there is the scientific theory, and then there is the art inherent in applying the theory correctly. You may not feel there is any need for science in this, but clearly you have a massive amount of experience and expertise with canines of all breeds, ages, health and behavioral problems, etc. I don't know about the K9 book, but from the little I do know about human nutrition you can have a balanced, healthy diet completely without supplements and without getting a masters degree, but more often than not unsupplemented people aren't getting enough of something or too much of another. This may not become apparent until you get pregnant, experience a chronic illness and your immune system doesn't function propery, etc, so under "normal" circumstances you seem fine. Or later in life have a kidney stone, or other type of duct blockage that took decades to develop, or osteoporosis. When I say unsupplemented, I mean everything - not just vitamins, but iodized salt, Vit D milk, orange juice with calcium, etc. Not that the "perfect diet" would prevent all of these things in every human, but my own feeling is that a lot of "old age" stuff seen as unavoidable would be reduced in severity or prevented entirely by a well-balanced

 

I am sure that your dogs are VERY well fed. I bet you just have a really good intuitive ability to know how to artfully adjust and balance, based on a ton of your own "mini-experiments" and trial and error! I'm just saying I don't trust myself this way and would need to rely on the theory. But seeing as how I am not totally confident of my ability to correctly balance a diet for myself without any supplements whatsoever, and I am privy to millions of years of instinctual knowledge of how to correctly feed myself, I don't pretend to intuitively understand how to do right by my carnivores whose natural diets wouldn't look a whole lot like my own natural diet.

 

This is my first dog, after all. Diet is only the beginning of things I don't fully understand. But Becca has a lot of experience too, and still was supplying way too much calcium (that can lead to kidney stones in people - might do something bad in dogs too, I would guess). Like I said, I trust the vets who told my husband you need to know what you're doing to have it be more beneficial than kibble, and I know right now I don't.

[Lenajo]

With your raw-raised litters, have the dogs continued to eat raw and thrive throughout their lives?

 

I've fed raw since 1998 now, and currently I have 16 dogs here eating that diet from age 4 months to 17 years. Overall I've got a healthy pack - with the disclaimer that *no* diet will completely prevent all cancers, all diseases, and all problems. We live in a far too polluted world for that. Diet is the core of health, but it is not *all* of health.

 

My oldest pup raised exclusively on raw is 8 years of age. She's a solidly healthy dog - rarely bothered with problems even of minor type. Full time farm worker, part time trialer, full time Mean Old Puppy Auntie

 

I have second, and third, and fourth thoughts about just about everything on a regular basis. It's part of being a concerned owner! And thawing and handing out 20+ pounds of raw meat and bones in a sitting at the end of a long day isn't great either. However all it takes is a boarder or guest here once in a while to smell the sheer stink that a kibble fed dog can produce to get me back on track. I've also had some dogs leave for a few years (i.e. like the dog I sold to another working farm, then took back when the owner unexpectadly died 3 years later) who were fed kibble during that time. The difference in hair coat, teeth, musculature, overall health is quite appalling. It really shows on the older dogs especially -thank goodness getting them back on a good diet takes years off them!

 

It's a good diet. It's not for everyone, or every dog. What I disagree with is hat Joe Public can't do it with simple education and teaching.

[Lenajo]

oops double post

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

My point is not that it's hard to put this kind of effort into engineering more precisely the nutritional profile of your dog's diet. I am neither an expert nor a math genius - am I ever not a math genius! And I hate spreadsheets with a passion. [edit: forgot my point! ] My point is that you don't have to choose between "balanced" or "scientific" and a natural, fresh-food-based approach. It's relatively easy to run the numbers, make the adjustments, and give yourself that peace of mind.

 

It took me a couple days to construct it and put the "new" numbers in (I had one a long time ago but lost it, but the nutritional data was outdated anyway) and a couple more to come up with a diet plan for all seven (at the time) dogs. Now that it's set up it literally takes minutes to add a dog (as I did when I brought Min the LGD in for her spay), or seconds to make a change (like when we got a bumper crop of pears and I wanted to sub them for apples, or when someone generously gave us a bunch of ground beef).

 

I don't slavishly follow Monica Segal or any other nutrition guru, and never have. I do respect the research they've done and the work they've done to compile nutrition information for people like me who want to do stuff like this, and don't have access to the primary resources. It's up to any individual to examine those resources themselves and judge their trustworthiness.

 

I would never presume to say, "Everyone must feed like me." Heck, not even all my own dogs eat the same "type" of diet. Everyone has their own comfort level and I'm just sharing mine. Pros for me:

• Everything's right there as a reference for me or my vet if I need to budget, change something, plan, or a question comes up. My husband hated the fact that before, feeding the dogs was like the codes that live in the "Football" - a state secret that changed all the time and traveled with me. Now he, my vet, and our natural care consultant can all view everything whenever.
  
• It's cheaper than either "pure" prey model, or super premium dog food.
  
• It's also more flexible, since I don't have to rely on the magic of "variety over time" to provide balance. Variety is a ticking time bomb for Ben, who develops allergies at an alarming rate and already is limited to non-poultry and can't have a lot of some game meats, either.
  
• Once it's done, it's done. Once a week I prep all the same meats, prepare all the same meals, and it's all routine. I know what I'm getting before I go to the store - or if I find a sale I can make the adjustment when I get home. If I get a sale, I prep the items as I'm going to use them and take that much more time off later prep sessions (or allow hubby to feed ahead in an emergency).
  

Please don't think I'm a traitor, Lenajo! Truth in advertising - I still remember and am grateful that you got me started in homeprepared (raw) feeding many years ago. I do appreciate your commitment to your philosophies in nutrition. I, on the other hand, am just a natural fiddler, that's why I need something like this to nail me down to a consistent approach!

[Lenajo]

Theory is nothing but opinion that hasn't been disproven yet or proven, if you a glass half full kind of guy

 

I educate humans daily on diet - and frankly, most people with more than a 4th grade education can balance a diet just fine. They may not *want* too because they are conditioned by society and their taste buds to prefer sugary carbs- but they can. They may not be able to afford too - that's a sad state of affairs in this country, especially inner city...that crap food is cheaper than healthy stuff. But again, they can balance it just fine if they want to, and can afford it.

 

I wouldn't say I have intuition to feeding - I would say I have common sense. And though I would not consider any of my dogs as experimental objects, I will agree that all of life is pretty much an experiment in progress.

 

So using common sense I can look at a dog's teeth, then at my teeth, and figure we problably arn't made for the same diet Simple education - what does a carnivore (and in the dogs case i feel they are more canivorous scavenger than plain carnivore) eat, from what sources? How can I get close to that with my food choices for them?

 

I'm not anti-supplement. I anti using them based on generic tables and theories. I'm also against using them before you've gotten a solid healthy diet in them first.

 

So if this was not your first dog, but your first human kid, and the pediatrician sat you down and said "now Ooky, for the first 8-10 years of your childs life they must have a balanced diet *every* day. The only way to get that is if you feed this 100% daily value met cereal called Total with milk. This is what you child can have only or they will grow improperly and have issues. There is no way that you, a mere human Mom/Dad can ever properly balance the diet for this child. Total, and only Total with milk is the way to go"

 

We'd never tolerate a pediatrian doing this, we'd frankly report him for being nuts, so why do we let vets do it?

 

Becca and I have known each other for years, and can disagree quite well without finding it personal. She has her road to follow - her dogs with their own problems -and me with mine.

 

There is far more to stone formation in the kidney's than diet. You have to have an absorption problem/ a metabolic one. It's not just you eat calcium and when you get to X level you make stones. Many people have stones that have nothing to do with calcium. In the end it's just better to have a regular and reasonable amount of milk and get on with life.

 

If you dont' want to feed raw that's perfectly allright. But let it be your decision based on education, not because the diet is inherantly difficult or wrong. It isn't.

 

I have no doubt, just with holistic nutrition in humans, wildlife, or any other animal, there is the scientific theory, and then there is the art inherent in applying the theory correctly. You may not feel there is any need for science in this, but clearly you have a massive amount of experience and expertise with canines of all breeds, ages, health and behavioral problems, etc. I don't know about the K9 book, but from the little I do know about human nutrition you can have a balanced, healthy diet completely without supplements and without getting a masters degree, but more often than not unsupplemented people aren't getting enough of something or too much of another. This may not become apparent until you get pregnant, experience a chronic illness and your immune system doesn't function propery, etc, so under "normal" circumstances you seem fine. Or later in life have a kidney stone, or other type of duct blockage that took decades to develop, or osteoporosis. When I say unsupplemented, I mean everything - not just vitamins, but iodized salt, Vit D milk, orange juice with calcium, etc. Not that the "perfect diet" would prevent all of these things in every human, but my own feeling is that a lot of "old age" stuff seen as unavoidable would be reduced in severity or prevented entirely by a well-balanced

 

I am sure that your dogs are VERY well fed. I bet you just have a really good intuitive ability to know how to artfully adjust and balance, based on a ton of your own "mini-experiments" and trial and error! I'm just saying I don't trust myself this way and would need to rely on the theory. But seeing as how I am not totally confident of my ability to correctly balance a diet for myself without any supplements whatsoever, and I am privy to millions of years of instinctual knowledge of how to correctly feed myself, I don't pretend to intuitively understand how to do right by my carnivores whose natural diets wouldn't look a whole lot like my own natural diet.

 

This is my first dog, after all. Diet is only the beginning of things I don't fully understand. But Becca has a lot of experience too, and still was supplying way too much calcium (that can lead to kidney stones in people - might do something bad in dogs too, I would guess). Like I said, I trust the vets who told my husband you need to know what you're doing to have it be more beneficial than kibble, and I know right now I don't.

[Lenajo]

the raw/processed combo diet has proven quite good for a lot of people's dogs. I think it is vastly preferably to simply going with a single kibble. It is cheaper - and for dogs with few health issues I _think_ it may in the long run be equal to raw only.

 

I'm not really sure what bothers you about variety over time. I can't imagine - as I am suddenly looking at bumper crop of late figs - that I would need a spreadsheet to figure out if that fits into our family's diet this week and if it's equal to the tomatoes we've been up to our necks in the week before.

 

We do what primates have done for centuries. Basically gorge until we hate them, then store the rest. And load them into other people's flintstone mobiles...I mean cars LOL

 

You really do need to read Segal's Border Collie booket. I'm toying with writing her in disgust.

 

I don't think you are saying that everyone has too feed like you - I'm actually not saying that either. What I object to is the idea that you won't be feeding a quality diet if it's not done to the degree you've chosen.

 

You're not a traitor my dear...you're a nitpicker ROFL.

 

I wish somebody could keep my diet contained to a spreadsheet....

 

 

 

 

My point is not that it's hard to put this kind of effort into engineering more precisely the nutritional profile of your dog's diet. I am neither an expert nor a math genius - am I ever not a math genius! And I hate spreadsheets with a passion. [edit: forgot my point! ] My point is that you don't have to choose between "balanced" or "scientific" and a natural, fresh-food-based approach. It's relatively easy to run the numbers, make the adjustments, and give yourself that peace of mind.

 

It took me a couple days to construct it and put the "new" numbers in (I had one a long time ago but lost it, but the nutritional data was outdated anyway) and a couple more to come up with a diet plan for all seven (at the time) dogs. Now that it's set up it literally takes minutes to add a dog (as I did when I brought Min the LGD in for her spay), or seconds to make a change (like when we got a bumper crop of pears and I wanted to sub them for apples, or when someone generously gave us a bunch of ground beef).

 

I don't slavishly follow Monica Segal or any other nutrition guru, and never have. I do respect the research they've done and the work they've done to compile nutrition information for people like me who want to do stuff like this, and don't have access to the primary resources. It's up to any individual to examine those resources themselves and judge their trustworthiness.

 

I would never presume to say, "Everyone must feed like me." Heck, not even all my own dogs eat the same "type" of diet. Everyone has their own comfort level and I'm just sharing mine. Pros for me:

• Everything's right there as a reference for me or my vet if I need to budget, change something, plan, or a question comes up. My husband hated the fact that before, feeding the dogs was like the codes that live in the "Football" - a state secret that changed all the time and traveled with me. Now he, my vet, and our natural care consultant can all view everything whenever.
  
• It's cheaper than either "pure" prey model, or super premium dog food.
  
• It's also more flexible, since I don't have to rely on the magic of "variety over time" to provide balance. Variety is a ticking time bomb for Ben, who develops allergies at an alarming rate and already is limited to non-poultry and can't have a lot of some game meats, either.
  
• Once it's done, it's done. Once a week I prep all the same meats, prepare all the same meals, and it's all routine. I know what I'm getting before I go to the store - or if I find a sale I can make the adjustment when I get home. If I get a sale, I prep the items as I'm going to use them and take that much more time off later prep sessions (or allow hubby to feed ahead in an emergency).
  

Please don't think I'm a traitor, Lenajo! Truth in advertising - I still remember and am grateful that you got me started in homeprepared (raw) feeding many years ago. I do appreciate your commitment to your philosophies in nutrition. I, on the other hand, am just a natural fiddler, that's why I need something like this to nail me down to a consistent approach!

[Ooky]

Becca and I have known each other for years, and can disagree quite well without finding it personal. She has her road to follow - her dogs with their own problems -and me with mine.

 

There is far more to stone formation in the kidney's than diet. You have to have an absorption problem/ a metabolic one. It's not just you eat calcium and when you get to X level you make stones. Many people have stones that have nothing to do with calcium. In the end it's just better to have a regular and reasonable amount of milk and get on with life.

 

If you dont' want to feed raw that's perfectly allright. But let it be your decision based on education, not because the diet is inherantly difficult or wrong. It isn't.

 

Oh, I don't find anything here personal - I'm just stating my own opinion on a very interesting subject for me. And I do know that many things contribute to kidney stones, but excess calcium is *one* factor --in humans at least-- that can predispose you to them.

 

And I agree w/ your pediatrician example...I was going for something more relaxed though, like a pediatrician recommending a non-breast feeding mother use a brand formula rather than trying to make up their own milk replacement.

 

I should step back and say I enjoy YOUR posts on the subject too, because they make me feel like I might actually be able to do this well some day without going crazy. And because it's clear you know a lot about feeding dogs.

 

Finally, I DO want to feed raw - but haven't quite put in what I consider to be appropriate effort at my own education. We all know from other posts I've made what a ditz I can be. I really enjoyed feeding my rats a mainly raw diet, I thought it was fun and a good way to bond with them. In my perfect world, I'd have a goat/sheep/cattle farm (sustainably managed) and butcher my own meats for myself and my animals. But right now I'll just settle for piece of mind knowing *I'm* not messing up their diets too badly, and continue to keep it in my mind that it would be good to "take the plunge" as it were.

[Lenajo]

In your case I would suggest you find a kibble you like, and simple start supplementing (that naughty word again LOL) with fresh raw foods as you feel comfortable. Even simply adding the nutritional variety of occassional steamed or pureed vegetables or cooked meats helps.

 

My dogs like all sorts of things - mostly because they were introduced as puppies to the idea that food came a lot of different ways. Beinn even asks for an orange sometimes, and peels his own when I give it too him Dogs that like their food, and are conditioned to eat willingly and well whenever and whatever is offered, are much easier to know when they are ill.

[SS Cressa]

Where do you find out the ratio of vitamins and mineral that are needed in their diets?

 

I use to feed my dog:

80% lean beef

raw egg

garlic

cottage cheese

yogurt

mix fruit (Can mix fruit that were high in Vit C)

pumpkin

and a prepacked veggie mix (kelp, cranberries, sweet potato, alfalfa, spinach, rosemary, Bananas, and etc)

Honey

1x week sardine (She didn't care for salmon)

 

I was always worry I was missing some vitamins or mineral from her diet or not getting enough from her diet or getting too much in her diet.

 

I now feed pre made raw ($3-4 per lbs) but would like to go back to making it myself.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

You're not a traitor my dear...you're a nitpicker ROFL.

 

Okay, that's it! NOW it's personal - and you ---you--- you are a rotten anarchist!

 

Just kidding of course.

 

I didn't realize Monica Segal had breed books now until I really started reading the list back at the beginning of the year. It seemed a bit odd given her philosophy of individualized diets.

 

I'm much more comfortable doing what I do now than I did combining kibble and raw. I've simply replaced the kibble with my own preparation of carbs and meat, plus supplements customized for each dog. While kibbles follow AAFCO guidelines which are based largely on NRC recommendations from 1985, I'm using NRC's recommendations that include research up to 2006.

 

I'm not saying what I'm doing is better - it's better for me because I need concrete reasons for doing things.

 

Actually, my first son had failure to thrive (which was finally sorted out as being caused by an overgrowth of gi bacteria), so I went through all this with him, too. It was the same for him - I worked things out with his pediatrician, what my nutritional goals were on a daily basis, and strategies for getting there. And "nutritionally complete" mixes were a big part of it because he'd only take in a certain number of calories daily before he'd quit on me - so CIB mixed with formula, mixed in baby oatmeal was a typical offering. I had to keep a running total daily of certain nutrients: so much protein, so much fat, so much zinc, so much vit C, etc.

 

However, once I learned to become aware of these things, it became second nature. Similarly, I've had to become much more aware of nutrient values in foods that I myself eat since starting Weight Watchers. If I eat "just whatever" I make bad choices and the weight keeps going up. When I think about what I eat, I lose (and someday I hope I'll maintain).

 

So it's just an individual thing. Just like some people don't have to watch what they eat like a hawk. And I no longer have to calculate PJ's nutrients to the gram or mg since the bacteria thing resolved. It's just what works for you.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Where do you find out the ratio of vitamins and mineral that are needed in their diets?

 

I got the information (NRC's recommended allowances) from Monica Segal's book Optimal Nutrition. The table in there comes straight from the big $250 book you can get, if you prefer, from NRC itself. The NRC book gives you a ton more information if you really want to geek out, like specific guidelines for puppies for instance.

 

Like the FDA's "food pyramid", the guidelines are just that - recommendations based on the research they've compiled about dog nutrition. As Wendy says, they change with time as more research comes in, just as the government guidelines do.

 

But they give me a target to anchor my plans to. Planning fits what we do here better and plans have to have some guidelines or standards.

 

One thing that I should point out is that I don't balance my dogs' diets every day precisely. My plans take everything I feed in a week into account. So they get a variety (the ones that can tolerate it). They aren't even balanced that closely in a week (dogs don't need uber precision - they are scavengers!). The plans are just my assurance that I don't "cheat" or get confused (even more likely).

[Bill Fosher]

A big part of my education during cardiac rehab was centered around human diets. It was very interesting indeed. For instance, I don't drink much if any milk so the counselors started to lecture me about vitamin D. When I pointed out to them that I am outside six to eight hours a day, and seldom use sunscreen (and if I do use it, I sweat it off in the first hour). But, they said, even if I do go outside in the winter with skin exposed, there's not enough sunlight from mid-November to mid-April in New Hampshire to generate vitamin D. (South of Virginia Beach there is enough, BTW.) My heart attack came on March 28 -- I would have been vitamin D deprived for a few months at that point and probably would have used up whatever I had stored. (Not that I wouldn't have had the heart attack at some point anyway, but it's interesting to see how things piled up over the years.)

 

Becca, if I recall correctly, one of your food weaknesses is McDonald's, so I thought I'd share the first rule that the dietitian gave us. "Eat nothing that is handed to you through a window." My name is Bill and I am a Wendy's-aholic. It's been nine months since my last drive-through ...

 

Anyway, to include a little doggie content in this post, my earlier comment on balancing puppy diets was based on my very limited experience (1) with puppies weaned onto raw food. Fern was very fussy. Would not eat liver (still isn't big on it to this day). Didn't like hamburg very much. Loved chicken wings. Ate too many, got too much calcium, developed OCD, which fortunately resolved itself without surgery. Like my heart attack, diet wasn't the only problem for her, but it was one that, in retrospect, would have been a very easy and low-cost thing to fix, and it might have made the difference.

[Lenajo]

I have a weakness for all foods that arrive at the drive through window. I know better, my butt reflects I have not used that knowledge...so I feel you guys' pain.

 

My name is Wendy and I pretend Wendy's belongs to me.....

 

Bill some dogs just don't like certain foods. I've found if the dog basically eats well and willingly, and their is a specific food they *will not touch* there is a reason for it. and it should be respected. (note, this is rather rare, and not your average "ew I don't want that") One of Dad's Open dogs, her 4 year old pups and her 4 month old pups....all that look like her anyway...will not touch liver or organ meat of any kind. The pups that look like their sire's side of the line eat it with gusto. If you try to force the non-liver dogs to eat it (pureeing it in the food in tiny amounts for example) it makes them very ill, and in the case of tricking the nursing dam into eating it, it even gave the pups (against just the ones that look like her) diarrhea when they were nursing.

 

They either just don't need it, or they metabolically can't do anything with it. Who knows why? And over the years I would say its irrelevant as long as the dog is thriving and healthy.