T.M. Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Hi all! I'm new to this forum and hope you all can help me with my new 1 year old BC. I've had BC's in the past but this is my first adopted one (and the only one I currently have). I have had him now for 3.5 months and he still refuses to come out of his crate. He loves walks and hikes, but will quickly digress if he gets spooked - and attempts to run home (to his crate). Other than walks and hikes, he doesn't come out of his crate. I have been taking the approach of just leaving the door open, laying on the floor by his crate to visit with him and trying to take him for lots of walks (when he complies). However, after three months of no improvement, I am getting concerned. When he does come out of his crate, he is only out momentarily (either for walks or to sometimes be pet) and then immediately runs right back in his crate. Even when coaxed with treats and encouragement he refuses to budge. He is unlike any BC I have ever met - he's mellow, doesn't have a lot of energy, doesn't know how to play with toys (in fact is very afraid of them) and ignores all animals (little or big). He also is not a huge fan of food or treats, so training him to come out of his crate has been difficult. Any suggestions? Any help would be much appreciated! I feel so bad for the little guy - it's seems like such a lonely life to be in his crate all day with no stimulation. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 That amount of anxiety in a dog would concern me deeply. The first thing I would try is to find treats/rewards/food that the dog cared about even a little. I would use rare roast beef if necessary. I would lure the dog out of the crate, reward, and then release the dog back into the crate. You can use release into the crate (which the dog wants) as a reward for doing things outside the crate. I would also probably try to make a mat very rewarding to the dog and try to teach him to be comfortable lying on it. Then I would have him lie on the mat, release to crate, lie on the mat, release to crate. If I saw the level of anxiety beginning to decrease through this process, I would probably start clicker training and then doing more work of this type - but I would only do that if I saw a drop in the dog's anxiety level. If I did not see the level of anxiety decreasing, I would speak to a vet. If this behavior is due to an anxiety disorder, medication might make a huge difference. You would still need to do training, but some medications can lower the anxiety threshold and make it so training can take place. I hope some of that helps. It's so difficult to watch them go through anxiety like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 He sounds a lot like my Shoshone, who wouldn't come out of her crate at all for a long time. What I learned is to let her alone, encourage very gently when she did something new, and just not push. Leave the crate door open, go sit in a comfy chair, and don't even look at him. When you need to interact with him to take him out, minimum interaction - no talking, no cooing, no petting. Leash on, door open, walk quietly. This may need to go on for a month or even longer. When he does voluntarily come out of his crate, the first few times, do nothing at all. He'll probably start to stay out longer. Then you can try tossing a treat towards him, not at him, but still fussing over him. A quiet 'good dog' and perhaps a treat from your hand when he approaches you is all he can stand. There's tons of stimuation going on for him, just at a more subtle level than you have noticed up to this point. Every car that goes by your house, every time the refrigerator kicks on, the sounds from the tv or radio or stereo, the smells wafting in from outside, the carpet under his feet, he's getting used to a whole new world. As he gets more comfortable, you can add in more little bits of interaction, like a touch on the shoulder, standing up then sitting back down when he's out of the crate, talking to your self, things like that. Your pup is unused to humans. Shoshone spent at least a year totally isolated from anybody but the jerk who owned her, and he didn't come around her but maybe once a week. She had no idea at all what life in a house with nice humans was like. Every time I pushed her faster than she was comfortable, she back slid, sometimes dramatically. Back way off from this boy, and let him come to you. He will, in his own way and his own time. And thanks so much for taking him - it sounds like he's landed in a great spot! Ruth n the BC3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggzmom Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Hi all!I'm new to this forum and hope you all can help me with my new 1 year old BC. I've had BC's in the past but this is my first adopted one (and the only one I currently have). I have had him now for 3.5 months and he still refuses to come out of his crate. He loves walks and hikes, but will quickly digress if he gets spooked - and attempts to run home (to his crate). Other than walks and hikes, he doesn't come out of his crate. I have been taking the approach of just leaving the door open, laying on the floor by his crate to visit with him and trying to take him for lots of walks (when he complies). However, after three months of no improvement, I am getting concerned. When he does come out of his crate, he is only out momentarily (either for walks or to sometimes be pet) and then immediately runs right back in his crate. Even when coaxed with treats and encouragement he refuses to budge. He is unlike any BC I have ever met - he's mellow, doesn't have a lot of energy, doesn't know how to play with toys (in fact is very afraid of them) and ignores all animals (little or big). He also is not a huge fan of food or treats, so training him to come out of his crate has been difficult. Any suggestions? Any help would be much appreciated! I feel so bad for the little guy - it's seems like such a lonely life to be in his crate all day with no stimulation. Thanks! Hi, My rescue BC is somewhat like your boy....He is very timid and feels most comfortable in his crate. I've had him for about 5 yrs and he still feels most secure in his crate. Even after all this time he is still very tenative when he comes out of his crate, unless I've called him. When he is totally focused on something he forgets to worry, but as soon as his focus is broken, he wants to find a secure place to hide out. It took him a while to learn to play with toys and take treats, but now he's toy obsessed and loves his cookies! After he was comfortable(well, as comfortable as he can be) with me, I started taking him places and training him (It really helped him to be able to understand what I wanted him to do). Also, teaching him to track helped his confidence soooo much! He is in charge on the track and is very proud of himself=) We accept Tyler for the dog that he is....I call him shy guy Ty. He is such a sweet dog and has a silly side that makes me laugh=) I watch how hard it is for him to handle situations that don't even faze my other two and admire how hard he tries to be brave. If you haven't done so, you might have a vet check him out and also have his eyes checked just to rule out a possible medical reason for his behavior. Hang in there with your guy, he'll teach you so much=) Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 Once again I will recommend http://www.fearfuldogs.com and the shy K9s Yahoo group. I'll also agree with the vet check... Um if nothing else on shy k9s you'll find folks that have been in the same boat, plus some good trainers that can really help with specific issues ... can also help folks determine that fine line between encouraging a scared dog to approach the world and pushing too hard.... Hate to say it but there are quite a few BCs.... but it is good for other BC owners... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted August 13, 2008 Report Share Posted August 13, 2008 I don't have much helpful advice to offer, but my heart breaks for your scared boy. Sounds like he hasn't been exposed to much except his crate, and that the whole world is scary to him. Early on, my dog was a bit like yours, to a lesser degree: if we were out for a walk (which he loves) and we saw a bicycle (which terrified him), he would be unable to get himself back to a calm state. The rest of the walk would be spent shaking, panting, and slinking towards home, full of fear. I agree that very slow is the way to go. Like Ruth's dog, Buddy regressed a bit every time I put him in a situation where he got stressed out. It was as if he was saying, "See... I trusted that lady, but bad things happened anyway. I've gotta remember to watch out all the time!" Lots of previous threads talk about experiences like this. One thing many of us have in common is that our dog's recoveries were linked to our dog's trust that WE could handle the scary situations in everyday life. I think that once Buddy trusted me to lead him safely through the world, he got a lot more comfortable going outside his comfort zone. Good luck. I'd love to hear updates. And see pics! Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruger's Dad Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 I wonder if it is the intelligence of the breed that makes them so skiddish. Maybe they think too much. Ruger was afraid of just about everything when we first got him. He was afraid of small kids, kids playing basketball, cars, bikes, strangers. Just name it. I took the sympathetic dad approach and just assured him everything was alright. I took him everyplace I could to get him accustomed to other people and different activities. He still hates fireworks and motorcycles. I can live with that. Good luck. Patience and time will take care of most ills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sluj Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 Early on, my dog was a bit like yours, to a lesser degree: if we were out for a walk (which he loves) and we saw a bicycle (which terrified him), he would be unable to get himself back to a calm state. The rest of the walk would be spent shaking, panting, and slinking towards home, full of fear. I agree that very slow is the way to go. Like Ruth's dog, Buddy regressed a bit every time I put him in a situation where he got stressed out. It was as if he was saying, "See... I trusted that lady, but bad things happened anyway. I've gotta remember to watch out all the time!" Similar experience here. Staying calm and quiet, allowing her to avoid scary things, and giving her multiple options for shelter early on seemed to help my girl. If something happened to spook her at home, I'd let her bolt under the table, then sit nearby and talk to her quietly, maybe casually toss a treat near her. Once she got used to me, I'd be more upbeat; maybe laugh off some of the things she worried about. Another thought - what about getting another crate, or setting up a few temporary shelters? If he has multiple comfort zones, maybe it'll help him generalize to the whole house as a safe place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 I wonder if it is the intelligence of the breed that makes them so skiddish. Maybe they think too much. This could very well be a factor. With Dean, who is noise phobic, I notice a very deep sense of self-preservation. His behavior when he is spooked by noise is very logical in that case. He perceives a threat (gunshot, fireworks, thunder), his brain shoots out the chemicals that cause him to experience a fear response, and he immediately freezes and lays low. If possible he gets to a location that he finds to be safe (the futon, the inside of an Agility tunnel, his mat). Even when he is spooked and is displaying a fear response, he is very intelligent about his actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 First, have you seen a vet to make sure there is not a medical problem? Have you contact a behaviorist? I would find one that is qualified. I guess I see things a little different. If has been over 3 months and you are not seeing improvement I would maybe do the opposite of what you are doing. Your bc still has not learned how to deal with life in a real home. I would probably close the crate and limit entry to it. My bc is has been with me since she was a pup has issues. There was a span of time that she was extremely fearful of everything. She was starting to spend a lot of time in her crate. I decided I was not going to allow that though. I started closing the crate and would only give her limited access to it. She would find another place in the area to go "hide" but at least she was in the open and if something happened we could get her easily. After about 2 weeks, she started hanging out with us more. I we did not do much when she did, we kind of ignored her and then started doing more things when she was there... With a dog as fearful as yours, I would say you really need professional help though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 I would probably close the crate and limit entry to it. My guess with this is that he will find another place to hide - perhaps under a piece of furniture or smoshed up right against the crate. I definitely second the recommendation of a good behaviorist, though. Based on what the OP wrote, this sounds like more than an adjustment process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krambambuli Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 I am NO expert by any means, but I too have a very fearful and shy dog. And Sky would hide a lot at first, in the crate, under the sofa, under the bed etc.. I gave her time and space, but I realized after a time that she was not making much progress in bonding with us. Mind you she came around to liking us well enough in a couple of weeks, but she got scared by so many things so easily, especially on our walks, and then back home she would "flee" to her safe spots, and dissapear for hours. Finally I decided to take the other road. Limit access to places where she was not near us. She could still hide under the sofa or behind the chair, but I insisted on her being in the same room with us, wherever that was. I did not force her to play or interact with us, just be close by. The crate was put away (she was not that fond of it anyway, and she is not destructive at all). It helped a lot! She still has a lot of issues, but she loves being around us, and is not shy with us at all. People often recommed to attach a line to a puppy to keep it close to you and bond with you. Maybe something like that would work for you, too? At least some part of the day, an hour here or there? Unless your dog is visibly too stressed out by it, of course. But since he loves walks (on a leash I assume), maybe that association between fun and being attached to you would help. I feel for you in any case, don't give up! Andrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 Devils Posted August 14, 2008 Report Share Posted August 14, 2008 Andrea thanks for properly explaining what I was trying to get across. It is ok to hide but I prefer my dogs to still be near me and start forcing the bond somewhat. My dogs don't have free run when I am home so liimting access was very easy. Tempe could only be in the familt room or the kitchen anyways. Many times she would go to a corner in the kitchen and then actually started coming closer to where we were. We left her alone even when she came closer. Some times folks end up babying the fearful dogs without realizing it. I am of the belief that we are enabling them to hide when we give them places to hide when there is really no reason to hide. During storms and such, Tempe had access to her crate since she is thunderphobic but otherwise her crate was closed and she was forced to learn to deal. Once I stopped enabling the behavior so easily she quickly made strides. She now loves to be on the couch with us and even will put her head in my lap. Many times she will still go to a corner in the kitchen when she wants down time or if we have left her crate open she will go in there. Her crate is left open a lot now but she rarely goes in when afraid. She usually goes in when she wants some peace and quiet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Cowboy Posted August 15, 2008 Report Share Posted August 15, 2008 Hi Brand new to the site(first post even). I would suggest that you start by removing the door as he becomes more comfortable then gradually slide the top back until his crate is just a bed. What I am suggesting is inlarge his comfort-safe zone. Sounds like it will be a slow long road to travel but they are also the most rewarding....GOOD LUCK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 I tend to agree with Kim. If he had only been at your home for 3 weeks, well then I'd not see a problem with his wanting to be in the crate so much. But after 3.5 months, I tend to think of the crate as a crutch, and feel he needs weaned away from it. I would probably recommend closing the door and therefore denying access for short times, multiple times a day, and then building the time of no-access up. Also, in my experience, when dealing with a fearful dog, many times the owner tries to comfort the dog and therefore unwittingly reinforces the fear. I have had better results with "happying" the dog up during fearful times with a lot of happy, upbeat talk and praise...even if he does not seem to respond to it at first. Keep your attitude positive, and I'm sure things will get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 I have had better results with "happying" the dog up during fearful times with a lot of happy, upbeat talk and praise...even if he does not seem to respond to it at first. Keep your attitude positive, and I'm sure things will get better. It is different with different dogs, though. I've managed to shut my dogs down completely by trying to be HAPPY when they are experiencing fear, and I've had excellent success with sitting with them quietly as they experience fear and allowing them to be where they feel safe. I've found that "happying' the dog up works well with a dog of normal temperament who is experiencing a mild fear, but with a dog that is pathlogically fearful, it can really backfire. On the other hand, using safe places, acceptance of my dogs fears (this is a tough one!), and slow desensitization/counter conditioning have brought about significant results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krambambuli Posted August 16, 2008 Report Share Posted August 16, 2008 Kristine, you are right about having to take an individual approach with each dog. Nothing works across the board. The "happy talk" never works with Sky, for example. When she is scared or anxious, she does not "hear" me, her brain is so focused on the scary whatever. I try and make her do something, like "heel", or whatever would be appropiate. Because she is a nice obedient little girl (mostly), she manages to perform in some manner, and the task reassures her somewhat. Or I talk calmly in a normal voice. Or I often simply ignore the fear and we keep doing whatever we are doing. I also let her go hide when visitors come, because she gets too stressed out. More often that not she will get curious and come to check the person out from a safe distance. And that's ok. I have accepted the fact that Sky will never be that "normal" dog. She is our special girl, after all we are not perfect either. But in this case with the dog still hiding from his owner after all that time, I don't think waiting for the dog to make the next move will work. The suggestions to go to the vet and behaviorist etc. are all good. I just gave the example what I did, when I felt like my dog was locking herself into her own little prison. It might not work for this other dog. But I hope something does! Oh, and Kim, you said it just fine, I was just elaborating on what you said. Andrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mychance Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 When we first got Chance, he was 5 1/2 months old he came from a breeder who lived out away from the city. He was very shy and would want to stay in his crate alot. It just takes alot of time and patiences. The crate was his security blanket. Ours even looked up on the sky when a plane was going over and want to run home until he got use to it. Eventully we was able to get rid of the crate and he had run of the house. I agree with the other post try closing the gate for awhile when you are in another room and see where he goes, but if he freaks out to much just keep it open. Good Luck Patty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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