beachdogz Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Gee, I hope I don't sound like a complete novice here. But I'd like everyone's B.C. input on this "new" behavior we are now seeing. We have had our girl for 4 weeks now, and she has really come a long way. (She was a courtesy listing rescue that we acquired from the owner.) She is now getting along well with my little mix. Yesterday, I witnessed something new. Up until now, Kylie and Stormy have played pretty well; rough-housing and even running for the ball. Usually when we play ball, Kylie has her special ball that she wants to play with exclusively, and Stormy has a passion for chasing apples that have fallen from our trees. Yesterday I noticed that when I throw an apple for Storm, she starts to “eye” him. Her focus is not on the apple or the retrieve…it is on the moving dog. She then calculates when he will run and runs at him from the side, growling. He growls back and doesn’t pay her any mind, as he is focused on getting to the apple. Today, it has evolved into something a little more complex. They played separately for a while, then I could see the light bulb come on. She alerted on him, crouched, and began to eye him. She focused on his running and tried to run him down from the side, growling. When I tried to call her off, she dropped to the ground in a down position and continued to “eye” him. It is quite fascinating to watch. I am assuming that this is typical border collie behavior - or is it? Is this something I want to keep in check; or do I just continue to let it happen? Am anxious to hear what you all have to say. Sheep may be in the future, but for now, I want to get a handle on this behavior...is it good, bad, or just natural? Should I keep it in check or just ignore it? thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 It's a dog using her instincts to try and control another dog. It is something that you should quash now. It annoys the dog that is on the receiving end. One of my dogs like to do this to the other, and I wish I had stopped it sooner. She is a brat about it. The other dog tells her off and she quits, but it is rather like letting your 2 year old run up and pull the hair of your 4 year old- annoying and not funny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted August 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Recommended way of quashing it immediately: Make her stay while the other dog is retrieving? or... Call her off the minute she starts to do it? Should I give a voice correction at her for giving the dog a stare before she even moves? Is voice correction enough? (this dog does seem to respond well to voice) thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquilis Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Classic BC behavior - She's got at least some eye, and she's trying to use it. It shouldn't be too hard to convert that to stockwork, as you'd only need to shape the behaviors she's already displaying. That by no means indicates that she'll be a natural, or even terribly good, but she's got at least some of the core concepts already in her tool bag. But using it on another dog can get real old, real fast. Rather than quashing it completely, maybe you'll want to redirect when you see it coming. Unless, of course, you've got no plans to work stock..? Added: Work on her downs and stays - alternate dogs on the retrieve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Recommended way of quashing it immediately: Make her stay while the other dog is retrieving? or... Call her off the minute she starts to do it? Should I give a voice correction at her for giving the dog a stare before she even moves? Is voice correction enough? (this dog does seem to respond well to voice) I would verbally correct for her staring. If she responds well to voice, no need to add to the correction. If he had his way, Quinn would eye and walk up on my Sheltie when she is fetching, but his motive is to intimidate her into giving up her toy. When he was a puppy, I would leash him to me when it was her turn for fetch, while he waited his turn, giving him a toy safe to chew on. As he matured, I expected him to stay in a down while she played. I still let him have a ball to hang on to while he does his down stay. If he began the eye, moving in on her, etc. I'd verbally correct and/or put him in time out (garage or house, a few minutes max). There is no greater tragedy in Quinn's mind than to be locked up while another dog plays. I need to be very consistent and pay attention to the subtle signs which can be the briefest of hard looks. Border Collies can be very sneaky. The sooner you nip this in the bud, the less likely it will blossom into a significant problem that is hard to fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 I agree to stop it now, completely, even if you plan to do stockwork later. It is not anything you want to develop in any way; it is not going to help her work stock later. It's just a nasty behavior that is very, very difficult, if not impossible, to break once it becomes an entrenched habit. One of my dogs does this and it is a flippin nightmare. Craig can't be around other dogs playing and he tries to work one of my other dogs constantly, even in the house when nobody is playing (he "tracks" Taz). Craig often nips the other dog when he is allowed to do this sort of tracking/working of other dogs and as the usual target of his behavior, Taz hates him as a result. They have had only one fight, but I never, ever leave them alone together and Taz lifts his lip defensively every time Craig gets within five feet of him (unless they're actually near sheep, where Craig forgets about working other dogs and Taz forgets that he hates Craig). It sounds like your Kylie is well on her way to creating a similar dynamic with Stormy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tranquilis Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 I stand corrected. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie H Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 I'm with the majority here... SQUASH IT-SQUASH IT- SQUASH IT!! LOL! Really, it is hard to break once it becomes a habit, as it is loads of fun for the offender, and it is not something you or your dog will want to live with. I don't think it has much to do with how she will do on stock either, as we have a few dogs that would rather "herd dogs" than work sheep because they have learned that there is NO PRESSURE when they herd dogs. We actually have a young well-bred dog at the farm who cannot or will not focus in the round pen if the other dogs are in the other field playing. While some of the dogs playing would give anything to be in the pen with the sheep! Go figure... As far as the method of squashing goes, use what works for you and your dog. I try to redirect first, then escalate to voice correction, and if necessary, I would not let her play with other dogs until it is resolved. I am actually dealing with my young pup on this as well - if he can get away with it, he'd much rather stalk the dog with the ball instead of retrieving it himself. But when we play fetch alone, he does great. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beachdogz Posted August 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 Well, I thank everyone for their input. It seems everyone is in the majority. I also thought I should stop the behavior immediately, but not having had a bc before, thought I should get some opinions. Oh, you're all gonna love my next post/question. thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 Gee, I hope I don't sound like a complete novice here. But I'd like everyone's B.C. input on this "new" behavior we are now seeing. We have had our girl for 4 weeks now, and she has really come a long way. (She was a courtesy listing rescue that we acquired from the owner.) She is now getting along well with my little mix. Yesterday, I witnessed something new. Up until now, Kylie and Stormy have played pretty well; rough-housing and even running for the ball. Usually when we play ball, Kylie has her special ball that she wants to play with exclusively, and Stormy has a passion for chasing apples that have fallen from our trees. Yesterday I noticed that when I throw an apple for Storm, she starts to “eye” him. Her focus is not on the apple or the retrieve…it is on the moving dog. She then calculates when he will run and runs at him from the side, growling. He growls back and doesn’t pay her any mind, as he is focused on getting to the apple. Today, it has evolved into something a little more complex. They played separately for a while, then I could see the light bulb come on. She alerted on him, crouched, and began to eye him. She focused on his running and tried to run him down from the side, growling. When I tried to call her off, she dropped to the ground in a down position and continued to “eye” him. It is quite fascinating to watch. I am assuming that this is typical border collie behavior - or is it? Is this something I want to keep in check; or do I just continue to let it happen? Am anxious to hear what you all have to say. Sheep may be in the future, but for now, I want to get a handle on this behavior...is it good, bad, or just natural? Should I keep it in check or just ignore it? thanks! I haven't read the other responses, so if I repeat something that someone else said, I beg pardon. I had this exact issue with Dean when we first adopted him. He was completely hyperfocused on Speedy. I had to do something about it because Speedy was not amenable to it. I did two things. First, when Dean focused in on him and "eyed" him, I removed Dean from the room in a very neutral manner. What he learned was that when he acted that way toward Speedy, he lost access to Speedy. I worked with him separately to teach him games that he could play. I taught him to retrieve. I taught a call off. Once he was able to chase, retrieve, and bring a ball back to me and to come when called solidly, I added Speedy back into the picture. I gave Speedy his own ball, but played the retrieve game with Dean. Over time, Dean learned to play nicely with Speedy and they have their own particular games that they play together. Speedy, of course, also took a part in teaching Dean to stay out of his face, but he did need this help from me because he's a soft dog and Dean does have a controlling streak in him. Hope that helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixie_Girl Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 Very interresting! BUT, what do you do when a certain dog seems to have a "Attack me" sticker on them? Jackson is the most non-reactive dog I have ever met. He really only has two concerns in his life-working sheep(or chickens now! )and chasing toys. When I got Jackson, I only had Cheyenne. NO opportunity for learning to play with other dogs there. Then I got a rescue, Buddy, who, in the short week he was with us, taught Jackson the fine art of playing with another dog. However, Buddy always instigated play, never Jackson. Then we got Skip. Jackson pretty much ignored him, while Skip adored Jackson. Skip wouldn't play with toys, but delighted in running down the yard in persuit of Jackson, in persuit of ball. Then we got Lucy and Missy. Lucy didn't run or play, but Missy loved to chase Jackson. So, now I got two dogs chasing a dog that is chasing a toy. Jackson never cared, he was going to get the ball/frizbee, regardless of what else was happening. Then I got Holly. SAME DADGUM THING!! I have tried putting Jackson in a down stay, and letting Skip go for the ball alone.(by this time Skip had learned to play with toys!)Missy and Holly would wait, watching Jackson. But, he never corrects the other dogs, ever! So, at least once a day, play time involves Jackson out front, just me and him and a toy, where he can run and jump without plowing another dog that got in his way. Another thing, while Skip may bully Jackson for other things, like the bed, or such, he never does with toys. If by chance Skip gets the toy first, he will always drop it, and let Jackson get it, then chase Jackson as he runs back! Yes, God gave me all the weird dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 Really, it is hard to break once it becomes a habit, as it is loads of fun for the offender, and it is not something you or your dog will want to live with. Right? Try teaching a 16 year old dog that it is unacceptable. I suppose he has been doing it his whole life. It's creating some very grumpy dogs in my house, as this behaviour was never allowed by any of them, and they get tense and anxious when he does it to them. He also tries to do it to other dogs in the park. When he nips them, they nail him - and he is old and fragile, and often gets knocked down and hurt. It's very frustrating for everyone and I HATE it when other dogs do it to mine at the park. So do they. RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet_ceana Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 If by chance Skip gets the toy first, he will always drop it, and let Jackson get it, then chase Jackson as he runs back! LOL. You didn't get all the weird ones... Ceana does the same thing with Poke. Ceana almost always yeilds the toy to Poke... she sometimes even becomes excited when he "gets" it. Then, she chases/ follows (Poke could care less) him back to us crouches down and eyes the toy. The only time she does not give the toy to Poke is when she is tired and needs a break. She will take the toy, lie down and hoard (sp?) it until she is ready to play again. When she is ready, she gives the toy to Poke and it starts all over again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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