Eye

[airbear]

Hi all,

 

So I have been thinking a lot about "eye" and what it means to different people. I have what I thought was an understanding of loose-eyed vs. strong-eyed as it pertains to border collies, but I think I am missing some (a lot) of the subtleties. For example, I thought my dog has moderate eye. He doesn't get sucked in on a gather, he flanks fairly cleanly, moves fairly freely at the pen, comes in like a house on fire in the shed, works pens, exhaust, set-out just fine, etc. But I have been told by more than one experienced handler that he is fairly loose-eyed except when he starts to lock in, at which point he then has "too much eye". So does that mean that there is variable or situational "eye"? I always thought he was just a bit sticky or weak. Is this perhaps a nice euphemism for "weak"?

[Debbie Meier]

IMO, it falls into us as people wanting to put things in a box, or label it. I feel that we want the amount of eye used to be situational, when the dog is flanking I want him to release his eye or use it differently then when he is walking up, when he is walking up I want a stong intense eye, but not so much that it locks him up or the sheep up. I personally think that you can teach a dog to use his eye in certain situations to his advantage, for example if you have a real strong eyed dog and you allow him to use it flanking, he may get sticky, teach him that you don't want that much eye and you can get a freer flowing flank. With our cattle dogs I want them to develop eye, when they are walking up if they get looking all over I try to encourage them to lock in, maybe with a single at first then with the group, I would like to be able to get them to be able to make the adjustment based on what I am telling them to do.

 

I also think that eye is related to the dog being able to exhibit keenness, the dog with more eye tends to be more catty or slinkey, the one with less more upright. When an breed of dog that would be considered "Upright" starts to develop eye they seem to get more slinkey or begin to exhibit a stalking quality. It's just my thoughts on eye, it will be neat to hear others.

 

Deb

[mjk05]

I really like Tully Williams' descriptions of "pressure eye" (occurs when the dog is under pressure, esp at head, related to weakness, dogs that stick) and "free eye" (concentration, can be shown all the way around the sheep, doesn't cause the dog to stick).

[Peejy]

Yeah, I think Tully explains 'Eye' really well in his book. It is a great book and is well worth the read.

A quote from his book "Working Sheepdogs":

..Eye is simply the outward manifestation of concentration and caution. In the wild it is shown by the big cats, or wolves, stalking prey; that is, trying to creep up unobserved, or trying to anticipate what the animal is going to do.

Dogs show eye as they get more intent and focused and cautious, or frightened.

The amount and type of eye a dog uses is vital to the effectiveness as a working dog.

Too Much, or the wrong type, and the dog will lack force and cover, be difficult to move around, and will cause sheep to stand and look at it. The dog will also rush to force (if it forces at all). On the other hand, too little eye when it is needed and the dog will be loose in its work, and have trouble handling touchy situations.

 

Tully believes that there are basically 2 forms of eye (or motivations behind it) (as mjk05 has already described)..

"Pressure eye" and "Free eye"

Pressure eye only being evident when the dog is under direct pressure, and is tense or frightened to some extent, due to being weak and/or fearful

Free eye, which is what is required (in moderation), denotes good concentration and is not brought on by fear.

[DTrain]

Airbear, the word eye or at least the Gaelic version of the word eye which I can't remember at the moment or probably spell anyway seems to show up in history back to the beginnings of the border collie. The word seems to have been used originally to describe a BC's ability or trait to apply a gaze and a crouch to influence stock nayurally. This appears to have been a trait back in the old days that was needed in a dog to continue the breeding line. This was a natural trait in the dog that needed to be passed along. I cannot find early mention of this trait ever being refined but I have seen mention of a preference for hard eye in a dog worthy of breeding and this seems to have meant that the dog had a natural ability. I have no idea in what point in history anyone ever attempted to refine or develop this trait. I am not sure when modern terms such as pressure eye, free eye, loose eye etc. popped up in history but too much eye does not seem to have been a negative thing by early breeders. This does not appear to be something that very early breeders taught. It was considered to be a natural thing that the dog would apply as needed. A dog seems to have been considered to be good or bad based on the power the dog had over the stock but I cannot find any reference made in relation to eye.