Brody's Mom Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 My BC is 2 1/2. He's a great dog, listens well, has tons of play time and exercise. He loves our cat & cocker spaniel and once he gets to know other dogs loves them too. But when meeting new dogs he curls his lip and gives his warning growl and if they don't walk away he snaps. I almost always prevent any snaps, they're not common, but it's so frustrating that he does this both for me and I'm sure him as well. Our friend brought a puppy over last weekend (we weren't aware he was coming) and it jumped all over him, he growled and I got him to just focus on me and he didn't snap. The owners are aware of his issue, they called the puppy who jumped on him again and then Brody snapped at the pup. He didn't make contact but scared the pup and the owners kept making a comment about how Brody bit the pup... I'm thinking a basic obedience class with a group of dogs may help? He listens good....I just don't know how to make him realize he doesn't have to be agressive. I know in his head there's a good reason for it, but I'm not sure what or how to correct this. I've been reading Feisty Fido and trying to make him focus on me and it works to a point, but he still does the lip curl, etc. help... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Brody is a handsome fellow. I don't think you need to correct him for correcting a puppy who was acting rudely. That's how puppies learn appropriate behavior around other dogs. An obedience class might or might not be a good idea--it kind of depends on how much it will stress Brody to have to be working that closely to other dogs and how much the instructor understands about managing dogs who are learning to be around other dogs. Have you let Brody know clearly that reacting in this manner to other dogs isn't what you want him to do? I found that our young dog was doing something similar and no matter how much I worked on the issue using positive reinforcement and redirection, it wasn't getting any better and in many ways was getting worse (and I also used Feisty Fido). Someone told me to let him know clearly that I didn't like what he was doing, so I gave him a correction (to which he is fairly sensitive, so it didn't need to be much) and that has pretty much fixed things. I still manage him so he doesn't get in situations where I think he'll get nutty and I still praise him when he ignores another dog that is in his line of vision. But in hindsight, I really think he didn't understand that acting this way was not o.k. Not everyone will agree with this particular strategy, so you should decide for yourself, but I found it really worked for us and it makes it possible for me to take him places where I wasn't able to before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 I would suggest reading Turid Ruggas' book on calming signals for you to get a better grasp of how dogs communicate with each other. It's fairly short, but pretty informative on how dogs talk to each other. I personally don't feel that a snap or curled lip is a horrible thing if the other dog clearly has bad manners. Daisy is dog reactive, and most of her reactivity stems from other dogs who rush into her, stare directly at her and other forms of bad manners. We are taking classes to correct this as her confidence needs great improvement, but I am not really worried too much when an over zealous dog runs up to her face in the park and gets growled or snapped at because 1) the other owner should have been aware that my dog is leashed for a reason 2) the other dog had incredibly bad manners and usually 3) the other dog wasn't listening to his owners recall. Of course I try to avoid as much of this as possible, everyonce in a while it does happen, I try my best to set her up for success, but sometimes you don't know what's around the next corner! I don't think I would reccomend a full fledged obedience class for your dog as there may be too many dogs in this type of class and he may get over stimulated, creating more of a problem in the long run. You should, if you can try and find a class that is for reactive/fearful dogs or similar class that keeps the numbers down so your dog can concentrate more. Our first set of classes had only 3 dogs and the set we are in now has only 5 and Daisy copes well with these situations since there are human barriers between her and the next dog and the main point of the classes are to have your dog focused on you and what you are doing, so she does not have to fear interaction with the other dogs, and she can still function while there is one 6ft away from her. Best of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ooky Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Our friend brought a puppy over last weekend (we weren't aware he was coming) and it jumped all over him, he growled and I got him to just focus on me and he didn't snap. The owners are aware of his issue, they called the puppy who jumped on him again and then Brody snapped at the pup. He didn't make contact but scared the pup and the owners kept making a comment about how Brody bit the pup... I don't know about the behavior with older or well-mannered dogs, but that doesn't sound like unusual behavior from an adult dog towards a puppy at all. And I've got a puppy! They irritate older dogs and deserve being "told off" from time to time. My in-laws' dog will be incredibly patient with Odin but she eventually has enough, and lets him know it with a snap or "pinch". He makes a scared noise that sounds like he's dying but comes right back, just with better manners. And my sense is she bites him with a 1/10 of the pressure he's mouthing her with. Too bad your friends were upset with your guy, it sounds to me like he was just saying, "I don't want to you to jump all over me, puppy!" Which is totally within his rights! You probably want him to be able to play with the puppy but if he wants to take it slow, what's wrong with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie H Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 His behavior with the puppy sounds about right...older dogs will correct pups for being rude. It gets the message through to the pup better than a person can. This was probably a good experience for the pup, as he will learn that it is not appropriate to jump all over other dogs and possibly prevent him from receiving a harsher correction from a different dog down the road. As far as the obedience classes...that depends on how sensitive your dog is to other dogs. Does he react upon SEEING them, or only if they approach/sniff him? I have a dog that is fine with other dogs in the vicinity, as long as they don't TOUCH or STARE. I can have her around other dogs without issues, as long as the other dogs don't approach her and as long as her handler is a confident leader that she trusts. I don't think Brody is dominate or aggressive - it sounds like he is simply unsure of other dogs and maybe a bit unsure of himself as well, which is pretty common. We get many, many rescues in that have not been socialized with other dogs and then find themselves overwhelmed and behave inappropriately when approached by another dog at the farm. But in hindsight, I really think he didn't understand that acting this way was not o.k. Robin, Yes - We too correct by letting them know their behavior is NOT OKAY, and then we try the introduction again, using praise if they choose correctly next time (ignoring, head turning, walking away are all acceptable). Obviously, we use dogs that we know to be good with other dogs when we do this...setting them up for success. The other dog must be solid or it can make the situation worse for the dog in question. I just had to do this the night before last - I brought home a little JRT foster dog and as soon as my dogs walked into the yard he acted like a raging maniac. One quick (albeit big) correction, and we tried again - this time all the tails are a waggin'! It was like "Oh, ok, she's not gonna let me be a bad ass here" There are a few that require more intense desensitization - where a positive reinforcement protocol is needed to get them to the point that their reactivity is manageable. Congrats to Brody's Mom on being a responsible owner - and dedicated enough to hop on here and look for help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brody's Mom Posted July 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 I agree with you all. With this particular puppy situation I did not find him at fault, the puppy needs to learn as do it's owners who are first time puppy owners. The issue is that he does it when he meets new dogs. With older dominant dogs he is typically okay because he knows better. We can be in Petsmart and someone will talk to us (he loves people) and he's sitting and doing fine, then he'll growl or snap at another dog if it's is near him. Particularly if it approaches him he gets upset. This is what I have a problem with. We can walk and he'll focus on me....just doesn't care for dogs approaching him and he gets a stiff dominant stance. Just can't find the right correction. I continue to reward him EVERY time he's good when a dog approaches or walks by and he ignores it. But not sure of the correction to give when he growls/snaps. I've tried his "uh-uh" (we don't use "no"), I've tried just getting him to look at me but he ends up growling, I've given him a light bump in the shoulder to distract him but it doesn't work either. He doesn't have to allow dogs to be rude by any means, but if we're simply meeting another dog I'd like to get him to not react aggressively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brody's Mom Posted July 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 As far as the obedience classes...that depends on how sensitive your dog is to other dogs. Does he react upon SEEING them, or only if they approach/sniff him? I have a dog that is fine with other dogs in the vicinity, as long as they don't TOUCH or STARE. I can have her around other dogs without issues, as long as the other dogs don't approach her and as long as her handler is a confident leader that she trusts. He doesn't mind dogs in the vicinity, but when they approach him is when he gets upset. That's why I thought a class might be good for him, if small enough, just to reinstill some trust that I will protect him and he doesn't necessarily have to react to other dogs. I'm going to try your method of introducing him to a "solid" calm/friendly dog and if he reacts I'll reprimand and reintroduce. He's a great great dog, goes everywhere, is good with our horses now, and I know he just prefers that most other dogs leave him alone, but once he is around them a bit he typically loves playing with others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie H Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 One more thought - how does he do with Off Leash meetings? Or maybe dragging a leash but without you so close? It is amazing how much influence we have over our dogs behavior...especially since you are already tense about the meetings (which is not your fault...but it's hard to cover it up from the dog) ETA: What a looker!! Very handsome boy :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brody's Mom Posted July 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 One more thought - how does he do with Off Leash meetings? Or maybe dragging a leash but without you so close? It is amazing how much influence we have over our dogs behavior...especially since you are already tense about the meetings (which is not your fault...but it's hard to cover it up from the dog) ETA: What a looker!! Very handsome boy :-) Thanks, we love him very much! I can't say that he's had many off leash meetings outside of our friend's Aussie. When she was a pup he would do the growling and snapping, but she respected it. One day he grabbed her and held her down by the neck, but I don't think he actually bit her. He had been at this friend's house (same place my horse is so I'm there a lot) for months several days/week. so I think he was 1) guarding what he thought to be his property and 2) teaching the pup a lesson but he finally got over the lip curl/growl my friend said that he reacted to the other dog less when I was gone. These 2 dogs are now best buddies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Howdy, Totally understand. My dog, same behavior almost exactly. Meetings (dog and human) are always the crisis points. Buddy wants to break from the initial face-sniff, move to butt-sniff, and then have the other dog back off. If the other dog extends the face-sniff too long, or comes in for a second, post-butt face-sniff, or (horrors!) puts its neck over Buddy's back, he snarles and snaps. He is much worse if he's on leash and feels "trapped." Off leash, he's much better. My involvement definitely makes things more tense, not that I can always avoid it. As for the puppy thing, I think your dog was absolutely within his rights. He gave the puppy the dog equivalent of the "naughty chair." If he's a smart pup, he won't get sent there again. If not, he might need five or six scoldings before he learns to leave the big guy alone. (My trainer was really careful to coach new puppy owners about how to have their pups meet: move forward only if both dogs obviously want to move forward. If one seems nervous or tense, the puppy stays back a step or two.) Buddy is at the point where he understands that my saying "leave it" means I don't want him to correct another dog or try to drive it away. So I do think it's possible to teach dogs that the behavior is not OK with us. If my dog is already reacting, though, the best I can hope for is that the other dog backs off. (Buddy won't pursue - he just wants to be left alone.) I have to anticipate the behavior and give the "leave it" command before the reacting starts. I do spend considerable time on walks saying, "My dog might be grouchy with your puppy." People seem to appreciate the heads-up, and I can often get the dogs to meet with a little air space between them, after which it's generally safe. Good puppy owners will sometimes say, "My puppy needs to be taught a lesson," and while I appreciate the sentiments, I'm never really sure they want to see Buddy's teeth come out. Good luck. If you find any magic tricks, I'd love to hear them, too! Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy in AZ Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 If the approach of another dog appears worrisome to my somewhat reactive girl, I'll body block ( as in stand between the two, directly in front of one or the other) my own dog or the other dog, (depending on which one I feel is being impolite) until the situation is diffused. I also recognize that a direct frontal approach tends to be more intimidating for her, so will engineer an approach from an oblique angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie H Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 If the approach of another dog appears worrisome to my somewhat reactive girl, I'll body block ( as in stand between the two, directly in front of one or the other) my own dog or the other dog, (depending on which one I feel is being impolite) until the situation is diffused. I also recognize that a direct frontal approach tends to be more intimidating for her, so will engineer an approach from an oblique angle. Very nice...I like that approach. I also sometimes block the reactive dog's view of an onlooker - which is sort of like re-focusing the dog. I have not tried it with an actual greeting though....this works for your girl, huh? She then accepts the greeting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 We had the same problem with my girl at first. Just seek a trainer's help and observe what happens. He does have the right to protect his space from what I have learned. Also, off leash they do better (at least in my case). A obedience class was good for our dogs too. Take him with you when you can and expose him to different situations. That helped us a lot. Our trainer would "dog sit" our girl a few times in her pack of dogs and my girl learned she was not top dog any more. JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Quite a few BCs have a bit larger 'personal space' bubble... At the moment it really isn't helping that he is being put in the position of having other dogs get into his space and he is feeling the need to defend himself. You do not have to allow other dogs to get that close. The more he practices the behavior the better he'll get at it. A good positive class with someone who knows about reactivity and/or anxiety issues will help. You could try the trainers list at http://www.peaceablepaws.com Click under Trainer Referrals. Quick question, why do you think he has to 'meet' every dog you come in contact with? I simply do not allow on leash greetings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brody's Mom Posted August 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Quite a few BCs have a bit larger 'personal space' bubble... At the moment it really isn't helping that he is being put in the position of having other dogs get into his space and he is feeling the need to defend himself. You do not have to allow other dogs to get that close. The more he practices the behavior the better he'll get at it. A good positive class with someone who knows about reactivity and/or anxiety issues will help. You could try the trainers list at http://www.peaceablepaws.com Click under Trainer Referrals. Quick question, why do you think he has to 'meet' every dog you come in contact with? I simply do not allow on leash greetings... I don't feel that he has to meet every dog we come in contact with. When we run in the mornings or go for walks I typically just keep going and ignore the other dogs. He goes most places with me and there are situations where he may be approached by another dog and I was hoping there was a way to help him be/react a little more comfortably in these situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy in AZ Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 [ I have not tried it with an actual greeting though....this works for your girl, huh? She then accepts the greeting?[/color][/font] It's not so much that she'll then automatically accept the greeting, it's more that I can evaluate whether to allow the greeting to proceed without further management. I believe she takes comfort in my protecting her (if she is feeling insecure) and if she is initiating the behavior, it does take that edge off, so that she has a little time to engage her brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 He doesn't mind dogs in the vicinity, but when they approach him is when he gets upset. That's why I thought a class might be good for him, if small enough, just to reinstill some trust that I will protect him and he doesn't necessarily have to react to other dogs. You will not instil trust in your dog if you use punishment to try and fix this problem. You will only reinforce in your dog that other dogs in his vicinity makes you do unpleasant things to him. I would recommend that you joint the AGBEH yahoo group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc4pack Posted August 2, 2008 Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 Here is the public website for the Yahoo Agbeh group http://www.aggressivebehaviorsindogs.com There are some good articles and good book references under Resources. Worth a look.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brody's Mom Posted August 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 You will not instil trust in your dog if you use punishment to try and fix this problem. You will only reinforce in your dog that other dogs in his vicinity makes you do unpleasant things to him. I would recommend that you joint the AGBEH yahoo group. That's why I'm on here asking advice. Up to now, I have not "punished" him in any way for these behaviors, so I'm trying to figure out how to lessen his reactions or divert his attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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