Sympathy for the Devil

[Pippin's person]

I must confess, it has always been a mystery to me, as to what on earth possesses people, especially people that are new to a sport/discipline whatever term you care to use, to think they are qualified to be breeding dogs. (works the same way in the horse industry I've noticed) I really don't get it. And I have friends in this 'sport", who have yet to get out of the Novice/Novice class, yet talk of breeding and are breeding ;-( their dogs It seems I can talk till I'm blue in the face ;-( (and trust me I do) they/I/a lot of people, have no business breeding working Border Collies. I mean a person who has trouble training a dog, let alone handling one...and they are qualifed to know what a good dog is, what to look for, what they want in a working dog? What is this compulsion that people seem to have? This Need to breed I have 3 working bred females, all intact. I really like them all, 2 I've trained, one was trained when I got her. All 3 are bred fairly well, I enjoy the heck out of training and trialing them. Am I jonesin' to get them bred? NO! Down the road...maybe...but it's sure not the first thing that enters my mind...and chances are it may never happen at all. There are plenty of people around here, (people that have been at this a lot longer than I have) that have dogs bred the same way as my girls...if I want one, I'll buy a pup from them ;-). So I guess my question would be, How do you get through to people, novice handlers in particular, that the last thing that should be on their mind is breeding ol' Mullet?

 

Betty

 

I've run into a number of people who are just getting into this (and I'm only in for the last 2 1/2 years, so also just getting in)--and it seems like more in the last year--who seem to see breeding their dog as the ultimate indication that a) they are doing what their dog was bred to do, thus it is a great dog B. they want to be in with the cool kids c) they love their dog and love their newfound sport/hobby and seem to see talking about breeding their dog (or maybe doing it--but most of these folks usually give the same caveat as above--"maybe someday far down the line once I know what I"m doing"--) as one way of expressing that love. Those reasons (if I'm right) make it really hard to talk to people about not doing it--the social pressure and desire is very high. It also seems to manifest in the other thing I've noticed a lot, which is more people running in the lower trial levels (like Pro-Novice) hanging out a shingle to give lessons AS WELL AS breeding their dog(s).

[juliepoudrier]

It also seems to manifest in the other thing I've noticed is a lot, which is more people running in the lower trial levels (like Pro-Novice) hanging out a shingle to give lessons AS WELL AS breeding their dog(s).

Yep. I don't get the mindset of a novice who wins or does well on a N/N course or maybe P/N a few times suddenly thinking they're experienced enough to train other people or dogs or breed. It seems like a lot of ego to me. I guess I've ust never thought that highly of myself or my skills to think hanging out a shingle was a good idea, even after becoming an open handler.

 

Whoever mentioned that what you want in a dog changes as you move up the ranks is correct. I was lucky enough to have a good mentor that pounded that into my head. I wouldn't trade my first open dog for the world, but there are certainly things I would have done differently training her had I known then (as a novice handler) what I know now (as an open handler). And while I still really, really like certain working traits she has, there are others that I would change up in a heartbeat, because I now recognize their importance--something I hadn't a clue about when I started out.

 

And along those same lines, when someone else way back in the discussion (or maybe it wasn't so way back) mentioned breeding to pedigrees instead of to dogs (I remember, it was Kelpiegirl), I think the former is certainly one of the things that novice breeders are prone to do. (They don't have the experience to do otherwise, really.)

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

And they actually aren't breeding pedigrees, either - just maxing out the star power in their dogs or line breeding what they think is the cool stuff in their dog.

 

I've got one intact dog left here (no, two - but same reason) - they are still maturing. All else being equal, both these dogs are so far breeding quality and well bred - and the Maremma is eminently breedworthy, having been proven in a variety of situations - still, I have no interest in producing puppies. The lines for both of them are out there, and in good hands (better than mine!), and as it turned out I didn't even have to purchase a LGD puppy - dogs in need came to me. If I'd been in a fired up hurry to breed my male, I couldn't have helped Maia and Min.

 

If it's detrimental for someone like me to breed, even if I "breed up" - then it's certainly, I feel, wrong to encourage someone to breed who doesn't even have experience working their dog on livestock, or any interest in it. In conversations with such people, what they hope to achieve from matches to working lines, is increased drive and stamina.

 

They recognize that the athleticism in their dogs comes from working breeding, and agility and flyball lines have been around long enough that they realize that their lines require regular infusions from direct working lines. By going to big names, they also get "star power" and can attract customers who are involved in hobby herding.

[Sue R]

Yep. I don't get the mindset of a novice who wins or does well on a N/N course or maybe P/N a few times suddenly thinking they're experienced enough to train other people or dogs or breed. It seems like a lot of ego to me. I guess I've ust never thought that highly of myself or my skills to think hanging out a shingle was a good idea, even after becoming an open handler.

J.

 

Isn't that the truth! Some years ago, I posted somewhere for a trainer for beginning youth and their young dogs (not myself and not my area but related to a 4-H program) and got a very nice reply from a person who was "set up to start beginners, with a round pen and small field, etc., and ready to train novices and their dogs". Turned out that this person was only trialing at novice level at that time and, about four years later, has still not progressed past pro-novice in trials, training, or ability.

 

Some very fine people that I quite admire have commented that anyone can hang out a shingle as a sheepdog/cattledog/stockdog trainer but that only a few deserve to do so.

[Little Bo Boop]

I don't know about "hanging out a shingle", but in our local club, its not out of the norm for our handlers that are running in Open ranch, or even Ranch, to help the more Novice handlers. We don't charge a fee or anything like that...but myself and a few other members will have Novice folks out to work dogs. For me I think it works great, as both of us get something out of it. In an ideal world would we have a world class open handler/trainer? Sure, but they just don't happen to be on every street corner (Texas is A BIG state) and available to school us. As far as dog training, I've got my own that I'm working on, and I've taken in a friends dog to work. I also have a littermate to one of my dogs that my trainer wanted me to get going for him. While I feel fairly comfortable starting dogs at this point, I wouldn't hold myself out as a trainer. I feel I'm pretty honest with myself about my capabilities, and don't hesitate to email or call one of our more accomplished trainers if I run into a snag. I have a couple of friends that are kind of in the same situation, so far we haven't ruined any dogs or killed any handlers ; -) Anyway thats the way it seems to work in our neck of the woods.

 

Betty

[Sue R]

Naw, I wasn't talking about helping out a friend or giving advice, but folks who charge for lessons and put themselves out as trainers. I've seen one in action that was horrid and one that's pretty well-meaning but inept.

[Bo Peep]

I don't know about "hanging out a shingle", but in our local club, its not out of the norm for our handlers that are running in Open ranch, or even Ranch, to help the more Novice handlers. We don't charge a fee or anything like that...but myself and a few other members will have Novice folks out to work dogs. For me I think it works great, as both of us get something out of it. In an ideal world would we have a world class open handler/trainer? Sure, but they just don't happen to be on every street corner (Texas is A BIG state) and available to school us. As far as dog training, I've got my own that I'm working on, and I've taken in a friends dog to work. I also have a littermate to one of my dogs that my trainer wanted me to get going for him. While I feel fairly comfortable starting dogs at this point, I wouldn't hold myself out as a trainer. I feel I'm pretty honest with myself about my capabilities, and don't hesitate to email or call one of our more accomplished trainers if I run into a snag. I have a couple of friends that are kind of in the same situation, so far we haven't ruined any dogs or killed any handlers ; -) Anyway thats the way it seems to work in our neck of the woods.

 

Betty

That's the way it was back in my day. I met so many wonderful Open trainers that would be willing to work with me just to trade off new sheep for their dogs and enjoy a day together. What happened to that? Now, it seems to be "all about the $" not with my trainer- He is down to earth, enjoys my company and appreciates my dedication to him. I don't get out much due to gas prices, but I doubt I would ever choose another over him. He never charged me until "I" insisted. Consider me the Don Helsley Fan Club President- LOL