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I think I can add to that again....

 

"We are discussing how the "art" can be maintained, and consequently move the breed forward at equal or better quality than it is now, while still acting in a responsible and ethical manner in the face of current dog and Border Collies population issues

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Jaderbug if you are breeding Border Collies and your goal is not to produce dogs in the top 20% of the breed's possible performance scope I would say there is something seriously wrong with your goals.

 

Or do we have a true difference of opinion and you believe that breeders should have no goals beyond friendship, buddies, and love when it comes to these dogs?

Congratulations Jaderbug, you win the "outraged owner" award for this particular discussion! Every time this subject comes up, someone comes along and gets all bent out of shape assuming that the folks discussing dogs that are worthy of BREEDING are somehow disparaging the individual's dog and goals with that dog.

 

No one here has said anything about individual dogs other than that if you plan to BREED your individual dog, you should do so with working (that's stockwork and nothing else) ability in the forefront of your mind. If you have no plans to BREED your dog, then no one really cares what your goals are with said dog.

 

Open your mind to a discussion about how these dogs came to be (through careful and thoughtful BREEDING for USEFUL WORKING TRAITS) and why those same BREEDING goals should be maintained today.

 

In other words, it's not about you and your dog, or anyone else's dog here, unless that person is BREEDING his/her dog. I'm sure hoping that you don't consider friendship, buddies, and love as suitable BREEDING criteria!

 

J.

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On the trial dog v. ranch dog part of the discussion ... What is a "trial dog" and how do you breed for it? What traits does a trial dog have that you would consider breeding for that would not be useful to have as a farm dog? How would breeding for trial dogs be detrimental to the breed as a whole? I know at the clinics and lessons that I go to with trainers with far more experience than I, there is not so much as even a panel erected in their pasture, so it's not like we're ever practicing a "course" ... and you're focused on the overall work (unless we're penning or something). When I am using my dogs on my small flock (about 45 sheep) to move them from pasture to pasture or whatever, if time permits, I am expecting my dogs to work the same way I would expect them to work if we were elsewhere or at a trial or whatever. I could see how a ranch dog wouldn't make a good trial dog, especially when all the rancher is doing is using it for chores and has no interest in trialing, but being that trials are designed to simulate real work situations, I haven't seen too many trial dogs where I would question their ability to be useful farm dogs. Thoughts?

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If you are selling puppies how are you going to know which ones won't work well and should be in pet and sport homes? Remember most of those homes do not want dogs older than a few months.

 

I would consult with my spiritual advisor :rolleyes:

 

Deb

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I haven't seen too many trial dogs where I would question their ability to be useful farm dogs. Thoughts?

I think this is quite true of any dog who can perform well on an open trial course to a point (that is, in certain trial situations a dog who is weak or has some other fault--and they all have faults--can show well but might actually not be terribly useful on the farm in specific situations like moving ewes with newborns or the cantankerous old ram, etc., which is why it's helpful not to be kennel blind when regarding one's own breeding stock). The sticky wicket in my view is with the successful novice trial dogs who are also "great farm dogs" and are being bred as a result. Just my opinion of course, but I think there are far too many people who are relatively new to working border collies who have success in the lower levels of trialing and suddenly think themselves successful enough to be breeding dogs.

 

J.

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Hello everyone,

 

Julie wrote:

 

Just my opinion of course, but I think there are far too many people who are relatively new to working border collies who have success in the lower levels of trialing and suddenly think themselves successful enough to be breeding dogs.

 

Wow, "ain't that the truth"! And, what a shame it is, because people at that level simply do not know what they do not know. I have had some really nice working dogs over the years (and currently have some, too!), but I have never considered producing a litter. My philosophy is that I can buy a much better puppy than I could ever produce, and it's unfortunate that others like me (not yet an open handler) do not feel the same.

 

Regards to all,

nancy

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I think this is quite true of any dog who can perform well on an open trial course to a point (that is, in certain trial situations a dog who is weak or has some other fault--and they all have faults--can show well but might actually not be terribly useful on the farm in specific situations like moving ewes with newborns or the cantankerous old ram, etc., which is why it's helpful not to be kennel blind when regarding one's own breeding stock).

 

Agree that unflinching personal evaluation of your own dog is needed always.

 

Don't agree that trialing at a high level will not eventually show 99% of significant faults. Put a dog in a pressure cooker long enough and even with the best handling you will get a pretty good idea of where the breaking point is. Of course that means looking beyond the glow of certain names (human and dog) for another version of the unflinching evaluation.

 

All dogs have faults. That's a given and part of the honest evaulation required for good breeding.

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Don't agree that trialing at a high level will not eventually show 99% of significant faults. Put a dog in a pressure cooker long enough and even with the best handling you will get a pretty good idea of where the breaking point is.

All dogs have faults. That's a given and part of the honest evaulation required for good breeding.

I didn't say it wouldn't eventually show faults if someone trials regularly and in different areas. The problem arises with people who stay completely local and always trial on the same type of sheep....

 

J.

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Oh yeah. Let me tell you, it was an enormous eye-opener to (1) move somewhere that the outruns are almost always huge, the terrain is almost always big (giant, rolling hills), and the sheep are very often range ewes, and (2) attempt to move up to Open. If I had ever had any intention of breeding Fly, the experience would have completely changed my perspective on what to breed her to.

 

As it was, the experience cemented my opinion that I really don't know enough to be breeding dogs.

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point made. Agree about the local gurus.

 

I had similear experience to Melanie. Not only did trialing out of my home region tell me what I didn't have, it told me what I did :D have. Nothing like getting out of your box in a big way to see that.

 

As a handler I also learned that speaking softly has advantages on both dogs and range sheep :rolleyes:

 

 

I didn't say it wouldn't eventually show faults if someone trials regularly and in different areas. The problem arises with people who stay completely local and always trial on the same type of sheep....

 

J.

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Let me attempt to do some damage control… I sincerely didn’t mean to offend anyone (or piss anyone off), I had a pretty bad afternoon today and I took out on the board. I had no intention of coming in here as the “outraged owner” as Julie put it.

 

I did not mean to imply that I was breeding any of my dogs. I have not, am not, and will not be breeding any of them at this point in time… perhaps down the road it will be in the cards. Who knows how far down the road but hopefully the opportunity presents itself. And no, I won’t breed for anything less than herding ability.

 

I read into things that weren’t there and misunderstood other things… regarding the 20% thing, I had a brain fart and wasn’t thinking of breeding goals, but training/owning goals instead.

 

So please consider this my peace offering… this is such a great community, I’d hate to alienate/be alienated from it. I’m still a learning noob… I get the breeding issues, though I’m still trying to wrap my head completely around everything.

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As for the breeding side - i'm not going to go breed to some substandard dog to improve my working dogs, i'm going to go to something better. And this goes to RDM's point - what's wrong with your flyball dog being bred to a better working dog to improve the pups' working ability? That's how we got these dogs, by breeding up. At least she's not going to Joe-Hot-Flyball studdog. Good for her for trying to do better. Sounds to me like she's on her way to getting hooked on working dogs on sheep.

 

Who is "she" and how/why are you attributing motives to "her"???

 

Multiple sport and PET bitches have been bred to these working studs belonging to this Big Hat, not just one, and not just one time. Many bitches over many years. I have no idea where you got the 'information' to make up this fairy tale motive of the bitch owners, but when you just make stuff up, it's not particularly relevant to the discussion.

 

Even if this scenario was not entirely invented, I fail to see how breeding one's sport bitch to a working dog translates into one with visions of becoming a stockdog handler. There are huge holes in this leap of logic. If this were the case, there would not be BYBs and sport bred dogs claiming "working lines" within a generation or two, because ALL of these people would be getting "hooked on working dogs on sheep" and we certainly know this to be utter bullshit.

 

RDM

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Gee, you're probably right. The pet person or agility person who is going to breed their dog should probably just be sent down the road to breed to another pet or agility dog. Explain to me again how that improves the breed or even just how it improves the working ability in the puppies to be produced?

 

I'm not saying that pet or agility person *should* breed their dog, just in case anyone wants to put go off ranting about that. I wouldn't necessarily breed my own stud dog to one of those dogs but i can understand why someone might. It's more complicated than saying it's just about the money.

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Really interesting discussion -- sorry to be coming to it so late.

 

I just want to go back and address this:

 

No. My real question is - if the stockdog community is really so concerned about preserving the breed, why does this person get a pass for their breeding activities.

 

RDM, the "stockdog community," like the "rescue community," is not monolithic. It's made up of an enormous variety of people: those who care only about producing the best working dogs, and are skilled in doing it; those who care only about producing the best working dogs, and are not so good at doing it; those who care about producing the best working dogs and also have a need to make money doing it; those with a good understanding of "big picture" genetics, and those with little or none; those with a good understanding of the long-range implications of the growing influence of sporting and kennel club culture on the breed, and those who have never given it a thought; those with the character to stick with their principles in the face of temptation, and those who compromise, and those who can totally rationalize those principles away; those who want to impose their principles on others, and those who feel they have no right to impose their principles on others; those who put principle above being liked, and those whose stomachs turn into knots at the idea of not being liked; those who care what happens to their pups after they're sold, and those who don't; and so forth. There are all combinations and permutations. Yes, all of them are concerned about preserving the breed, but some are better at it than others and some will sacrifice more for it than others.

 

Is it because this person is really nice (true) and breeds and trains up/sells really nice working dogs when they do this internally (also true) and places impressively in lots of trials (also true) that the whole "other" breeding thing is just invisible?

 

I don't know. It may be that I would recognize the name of the person you're speaking of, but given that the person is a continent away I probably know nothing about this person's breeding practices. If I knew the person, and felt I could influence him/her, I would try to. I might not succeed, but I would try, because of my own particular combinations and permutations.

 

If you ask ANYONE around here in the trialling community who a good person to get a working dog from is, this individual's name comes up more often that not. . . . Honestly, the person in question - I adore them! I think they are wonderful peeps, done me good turns etc ... but I still don't know how to feel about those half a dozen breedings a year to sport or non-working bitches, and I wonder where and when it's okay to relax the standards of "breeding to improve ability" and still call that person a good stockdog breeder.

 

Well, the person probably IS a good person to get a working dog from, and IS a good stockdog breeder, in the sense that he/she can and does breed good stockdogs. That's not nothing, you know -- it's a matter of some importance if you're concerned about improving the breed. Relatively few people do have the knowledge and ability to produce good stockdogs, and without people who know how to produce good stockdogs, there wouldn't be good stockdogs. I understand you to be saying that because they also stud to bitches who will never produce good working dogs, people should not recommend them as breeders or buy from them. I find that view congenial -- there are people who produce good stockdogs that I would never buy from or recommend, for just that reason -- but I also know that many people who "are so concerned about preserving the breed" will not see it that way, and will think that recommending and supporting someone who does breed good stockdogs is, on balance, helping to preserve the breed. They will think the good outweighs the bad here. If the best course of action were clearcut and obvious to all, AKC recognition and the growing popularity of BCs among people who care nothing about working ability would not pose the threat that it does.

 

And I guess that applies to the OP's question too, when she wrote:

 

People are knocking at your door for more and your farm could do with an injection of cash. What if you tried a litter from your own best performers in agility? It's not as if you've gone out deliberately to exploit an opening in the market after all.

 

And so the dilution begins - slowly at first but the snowball gathers pace.

 

It must take a really determined person to resist the temptation to take advantage of the demand. Maybe we should cut some of them a bit of slack?

 

I think you paint a very accurate picture here. If everyone were solid in virtue and resistant to temptation, we who are concerned about the future of the breed would have nothing to worry about. But we know that's not true of any human population, including working dog breeders. KC folks are generally willing and able to pay much more for pups and stud fees than working dog folks. Many of our best working breeders live pretty close to the bone -- family farming not being a high-income occupation generally. I actually have a great deal of sympathy for those whose need to support a family causes them to make breeding decisions they would not otherwise make (although I have none at all for those who don't have that excuse). But their circumstances and my sympathy count for nothing in terms of the impact that what they're doing has on the breed. It is bad for the breed. And therefore, if by cutting them a bit of slack you mean saying that what they're doing is okay, I can't do it.

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Gee, you're probably right. The pet person or agility person who is going to breed their dog should probably just be sent down the road to breed to another pet or agility dog. Explain to me again how that improves the breed or even just how it improves the working ability in the puppies to be produced?

 

It doesn't improve working ability in the puppies to be produced, but there's little reason to think those pups will ever be worked, so that hardly matters. I too don't see where "Sounds to me like she's on her way to getting hooked on working dogs on sheep" is coming from. It gives a certain cachet to say your pups' sire was a well-known working dog. ISTM that's a much more likely reason why the sports dog owners seek out this stud.

 

When a sport dog or pet dog owner asks to breed to a dog of mine, I don't just send them down the road -- I do the best job I can of explaining why they should reconsider breeding their dog. Sometimes they do reconsider. Sometimes they don't and just go elsewhere, but sometimes they do, and that's a better outcome than either of the two alternatives you suggest. And I should think they'd be much more likely to give weight to such an explanation if it came from a high-stature working dog breeder.

 

I wouldn't necessarily breed my own stud dog to one of those dogs but i can understand why someone might. It's more complicated than saying it's just about the money.

 

But sadly enough, it usually is.

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I too don't see where "Sounds to me like she's on her way to getting hooked on working dogs on sheep" is coming from. It gives a certain cachet to say your pups' sire was a well-known working dog. ISTM that's a much more likely reason why the sports dog owners seek out this stud.

 

Wishful thinking on my part perhaps, hoping that someone was breeding to a working stud to add working ability to the offspring - I mean, it seems logical to me. Although i still don't see why someone wanting to win in agility or flyball or some such would breed to a working stud dog just for "cachet" as opposed to trying to breed to the fastest or most agile or whatever they're looking for.

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I'm going to go out on a limb here, and ask an honest, curious question, and I would really appreciate honest, sincere answers.

 

Out of the many of you who work your dogs on stock on a daily or almost-daily basis, how many of those dogs are from purely working-bred lines?

 

And to not repeat everything that's already been said, and still being an honest noob to purebred BC ownership, I'll say here that I personally feel that RDM is bringing up a lot of excellent points. Especially in this post. Not all points I necessarily agree with, but they're questions that we should all be asking, and all questions I had to mull over constantly in my search for "responsible working line" breeders. Which, by the way, after a good three months of phone calls, emails, and recommendations, are truly needles in haystacks.

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Although i still don't see why someone wanting to win in agility or flyball or some such would breed to a working stud dog just for "cachet" as opposed to trying to breed to the fastest or most agile or whatever they're looking for.

 

Could be, but either way they're not looking for what we would consider working ability.

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Out of the many of you who work your dogs on stock on a daily or almost-daily basis, how many of those dogs are from purely working-bred lines?

 

I don't work my dogs every day on stock, but I am sure your answer will be close to 100% of such people have 100% working-bred dogs. I work my dogs about twice a week and they are 100% working dogs (I'm not counting once-stray Sophie, who neither is a working dog nor has a known pedigree). It is not difficult at all to find completely working-bred pups if you travel in working circles. Though I totally understand that it can be hard to find working-bred pups if you're a newbie. Have you tried contacting people via stockdog clubs or meeting people at local trials?

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I don't work my dogs every day on stock, but I am sure your answer will be close to 100% of such people have 100% working-bred dogs. I work my dogs about twice a week and they are 100% working dogs (I'm not counting once-stray Sophie, who neither is a working dog nor has a known pedigree). It is not difficult at all to find completely working-bred pups if you travel in working circles. Though I totally understand that it can be hard to find working-bred pups if you're a newbie. Have you tried contacting people via stockdog clubs or meeting people at local trials?

 

Fair enough. :D And my question was mostly posed because, yes, I do have a bit of trouble finding good working breeders. Rather, I have found several good, reputable, amazing stockdog handlers (you Ontario/Canada locals know the names - Amanda Milliken and Werner Reitboeck are two), but they have no litter plans for the next few years. I'm heading up to the Kingston trials this week, hopefully for a whole day depending on my work schedule. I'll be introduced to a handful of folks who also work stockdogs and breed every so often. It'll be nice to get into the local crowd, as I do want to try my future dog on stock, for fun if nothing else. (I knit compulsively, so a sheep farm isn't out of my realm of future possibilities...)

 

 

In the meantime, you get a noob hanging out on your forums and drawing pics of your BCs. :rolleyes:

 

Thanks for the answer(s) and the tips!

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Hello everyone,

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and ask an honest, curious question, and I would really appreciate honest, sincere answers.

 

Out of the many of you who work your dogs on stock on a daily or almost-daily basis, how many of those dogs are from purely working-bred lines?

 

All of my Border Collies are from purely working lines, and they have been since 1989. Their pedigrees are on my website, in case you would like to check them out.

 

Regards,

nancy

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AllieMackie,

All* of mine are from strictly working stock. I do work with my stock daily, though it's usually just to move them from one grazing area to another.

 

*Caveat: I have two rescues here. The first is Willow, whose pedigree is unknown, but whom I trialed up through ranch before retiring her. Given the area she came from and her age (meaning she was produced before the huge growth in popularity) the folks who rescued her suspect it's most likely she's from strictly working stock. The second rescue actually is from true working lines, but is the apparent result of two BYBs taking their first-generation pet dogs from working lines and crossing them. He was a working wash out, but then again, I took him in as a rescue and not as a working dog, and when I got him, I didn't know enough about working lines to look at his pedigree and know that it was strictly that. And I suppose it's possible his breeders weren't BYBs but instead were folks who worked with stock but who were "before my time."

 

J.

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Out of the many of you who work your dogs on stock on a daily or almost-daily basis, how many of those dogs are from purely working-bred lines?

 

All of them. (excepting the non-border collies)

 

I'm not able to give my dogs daily work - but hope to be able to soon enough. But that's my line in the sand, regardless.

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