Agility and Herding Trialing

[mum24dog]

The mindset a dog needs to train/compete successfully at the Open level in sheepdog trials is so entirely different - he needs to be tuned in to the handler, but in charge of the sheep; be slow and thoughtful as necessary, authoritative as necessary; alternating lighting fast reaction with subtle, near-motionless control. To do that he can not be pumped up to the hilt. He cannot just react quickly- he can't think of sheep as a "game" - it's dead serious work. He has to listen and think and feel, and much of that comes from genetics; but also also comes from training and lifestyle.

Laurie

 

I know next to nothing (OK, nothing) about herding but you have just set out what I've always known about my farm bred BC - he wouldn't make a good working dog.

He's far too reactive and excitable with virtually no impulse control.

However - we got him to do agility and he's got a lot of promise.

Of course as an intellectual exercise I'd be interested to see if I'm wrong but I'm never going to try him on sheep because it could go so badly wrong. At the moment he can focus on agility even with sheep in the same field and I don't want to awaken his interest. With his lack of control (yes, I have read CU) I could end up with a dog that is a liability amongst livestock and that would be a very bad idea as there is nowhere we go where there are no sheep in sight.

I'm not prepared to risk my dog's life for my own curiosity.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

guess what- your aspirations- they are pointless- good luck. You want to do World Team- HAHAHAHA- what a joke.

 

Aspirations are good but sometimes best kept to yourself. My daughter shares hers with me but that's all. All my kids have been told "That's great but you will need to do X Y Z if you really want to achieve it, Go for it if you think you can be dedicated enough."

All people on here have been trying to do is inject a note of realism as to what it takes.

 

Pam

[mum24dog]

As for taking young handlers seriously - I don't know what it's like over there but here we sure do.

Two of the 4 GB team members that came 3rd recently in the European Open are aged 16 and 18 and have been competing at top level for several years (the 16 year old has run his own club for 3 years or so). Pam

 

Here you go - the team.

 

 

Ist to run - 16 yrs old with an 8? year old BC/Terv cross.

2nd - 18 with a BC from proper herding lines (including recent proper titles, I think).

3rd - rescue BC.

4th - BC from proper herding lines - definitely agility only.

 

Pam

[Root Beer]

. . . as for world team- is just a dream- why cant a handler aspire to something big- haven't you ever had a crazy dream of winning something? Also- it tells people you are SERIOUS. And most people DO not take young handlers serious. She was trying to let you know she was serious about a good dog/ good kennel.

 

I can't speak for anyone else - and I did not criticize anyone's dream, but knowing that your sister is young does make a difference in my own reaction to your sister's questions.

 

I know a lot of Agility folks who are SERIOUS. That can be a good thing and a bad thing, if you know what I mean!

 

It's good to have goals. It's good to have aspirations, regardless of your age. It's good to do your homework when getting a new dog no matter what your goals are for that dog. I'm glad that you guys are doing serious inquiry.

 

And it's good to ask questions!

 

As for the previous post about the kennel- did you read alot of those answers? Many were downright sarcastic, well before any response- and most discredited the kennel based off reading the webpage- not thru any personal knowlege- which was the OP's intent- do any herding people know of this kennel.

 

It might be helpful to you to do a search on the word "breeder" and find some of the lengthy discussions that have taken place here about obtaining dogs from breeders.

 

I'm not being snotty suggesting this - I think it just might help you to understand the responses that you got. It might help you to see why people jumped in and talked about rescue instead of discussing the Astra breeder. It might help you to see why people discredited the kennel that they did not have personal knowledge of. I get that those responses seemed to come out of left field when your sister asked a specific question, but if you dig a bit deeper, it will make much more sense.

 

I hope that helps.

[SS Cressa]

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[SS Cressa]

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[mum24dog]

Young handlers taken serious over here too- but sometimes harder to convince kennels/breeders of it- If you tell them you will go as far as the dog will take you- they will give you an average dog- they seem to want to hear that you are looking to go all the way.

 

If you train with a successful handler, get her support. Get her to talk to the breeder and back you up if that's what it takes.

I'd avoid a breeder who was only interested in a buyer being a likely good advertisement for their product.

A good breeder will ask what will happen if the dog doesn't work out. Maybe all they want to be sure of is that yours is the right home for their pup.

People get hung up on BCs being great at agility. Maybe they are compared to some of the breeds that get titles over there.

Here the sport is very much BC dominated and we see that only a small percentage gets to the top. Most are average at best and some are downright terrible at it.

Not making it is far more likely than anything else and both breeder and buyer need to recognise that.

 

Pam

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

why cant a handler aspire to something big- haven't you ever had a crazy dream of winning something? Also- it tells people you are SERIOUS. And most people DO not take young handlers serious.

 

Hard work tells people you are serious. Yakking about it before hand tells people you are a big talker, no matter what age you are. It's not about age, it's about attitude. It's really annoying to be asked a question and then told that we are WRONG ALL WRONG even though we are speaking from experience and the OP hasn't the first notion of the topic.

 

Humility, an open ear, and a learning mind are much better appreciated in a novice of any age.

[juliepoudrier]

Seriously tho- in almost every response we gave- we said we are looking to TRY herding- and if the dog did well, after SEVERAL years try trialing. Never once do we mention winning everything, or tons of trials. We also say we want to do this for FUN.

We do not once mention getting to open, everyone else said this, and implied how difficult it was to get there, and they could only focus on ONE thing, not both. we only mention trialing as in- if we get there. We ask only if the dog could excel at herding/agility at same time- was answered- very difficult or no- too hard to trial in both.

Not to beat a dead horse, but the very first post asked if a dog could excel at both herding and agility. Mot people said no. I qualified my response by saying that to me *excelling* at stockwork meant competing in and being successful at USBCHA open trials. If your real goal is just to get out there and dabble with stockwork while excelling at agility, then I imagine it can be done fairly easily. But having fun at it isn't the same as excelling, at least in my view.

 

As for Astra, I believe that others have already said this: Do you see a lot of Astra dogs excelling in agility. Making the nationals? Making the world team? I don't quite understand the desire to import a dog when there certainly must be plenty of well-bred working and sport dogs right in your own country. You're in Canada, I believe? There are top working dog handlers and breeders in Canada (both ends of the country), and I imagine there are top sport breeders too, although I have a philosophical disagreement with breeding specifically for sport.

 

If I were you or your sister, I would take a look at the top agility handlers and what dogs they have that they are doing well with. If you ever get a chance to talk to them, ask them what lines they chose from and why. Watch the dogs they run in person and on video. Make lists about what you like and dislike about each dog (especially things that are pertinent to your own handling style or what you're willing to live with during "down" times). Talk some more with people who know the breeding behind those extraordinary dogs and can tell you what sorts of "things" (personality quirks, work ethic/style, health issues, etc.) are known to appear in those lines (frequently or infrequently). Three years is plenty of time to do the type of research you should be doing to find the best possible dog for your sister to compete with. Instead of seemingly randomly choosing breeders based on some unknown criteria, start with the dogs and handlers who are consistently doing well in your sport of choice and see if you can find the commonalities among their top dogs. It seems to me that you would find your best answer by looking closely at what's doing great now in the top agility circles. Of course that still doesn't guarantee you'll get the next top agility competitor when you finally choose a pup, but by doing this sort of research, you'll be stacking the deck in your favor. This is the exact same advice I would give someone who is looking for the next exceptional stockdog puppy.

 

As for color breeding and the reasons why most folks are against it, try doing a search in the health and genetics section (start with the thread titled "merle explosion") to see some very well reasoned discussion on why people think breeding for colors is bad. The discussion won't be directed at you and so will seem less accusatory, and you'll learn A LOT about color and working ability and breeding choices.

 

J.

[SS Cressa]

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[Debbie Meier]

I think there is a general concensis that USBCHA is the highest level of work to achieve, to add to what Julie is suggesting, you have the time to learn more about herding, go seek out a trainer/breeder or even two that compete at the USBCHA Open Field Trials, find out what makes their dogs tick, what attributes make them what they are and how it relates to your agility dogs. I mention two trainers because each person has their own style and technique, likes and dislikes, style of dog they get along with or don't.

 

(I clairified USBCHA Open Field Trials, because in our area all but one are USBCHA arena trials, a totally different animal, if a person used them as a standard of work to train to they could be hugely disappointed the first time they stepped out in a big open field)

 

Also, understanding the workings of a USBCHA trial dog, how they are expected to work and how to get it, will only help you if decide to compete at the other venues rather then USBCHA, IMO it will give you a working advantage.

 

Deb

[Journey]

People on here were commenting about only one dog got his Obedience title from AKC and placed in Open trial. I was pointing out that AKC titles arent the only ones out there. Not only that- a dog can excel but not have a title- not everybody likes competing. I did obedience, dog excelled- but i didnt bother getting a title- didnt see a point.

 

 

Obviously you don't know much about AKC and their obedience titles if you think an OTCh. is just a title. I also said "won" an open trial, not placed. You're right AKC isn't the only game in town, it is however if "you" want to go to worlds. I simply pointed one dog that "did" excel so to speak at two venues. However, your understanding of "excel" and mine are completely different. If you think your dog excelled in obedience but you didn't bother with a title. How do you know? What type of articles did you train on? Which type of send did you use? Your moving stand with or w/o a signal? Everybody's dog is great at home, it's when you "take it on the road" so to speak you find your weaknesses.

 

We've got 3 world team agility people within 15 minutes of us. None of them would dream of saying it was "easy" and they all do nothing but agility as there is not time if you are having to campaign a dog for worlds.

 

So depending upon which "sister" is reading this - the simple answer is "no" if by "excel" you mean to be at the top of the field in both areas.

[Debbie Meier]

When I say excel in herding... In my mind reaching that point to being able to trial is in itself excelling.

 

As to your question, based on the information that has been given in the past posts by others, sure they can!

 

It still bugs me that you don't clarify as to what you consider as a herding trial, organization, arena, field....but that's my problem...

 

Deb

(edited, I forgot to quote the question, opps)

[Root Beer]

LOL My sister hijacked my post... GRRRRR

 

I wasn't going to mention the astra post since it has nothing to do with this post! Thanks for the tip tho.

 

My goal in 6-10yrs is to YES being able to make it to world teams! (3-4yrs before I even get a pup then the time to train it... I would be lucky to do it in 10 yrs) I am experience enough to know (LOL) that I am NOWHERE near ready to reach that level yet!

 

If you mentioned this before, I apologize, but did you mention if you had trained a dog to do Agility before and/or have competition experience?

 

If not, you might want to hold off on "the perfect dog" until after you have done so with a "starter".

 

Most people make serious mistakes with their first Agility dog. I made so many mistakes with my first Agility dog that in the end it was in the best interest of the dog to move to anther sport altogether! I made less mistakes with my second dog. She's competing and qualifying in the low levels of CPE. I am training my third Agility dog now and there is still so much to learn!

 

Also, I've found it a good thing to train an adult before trying a puppy. I'm looking forward to trying my hand at training another puppy someday, but first I have a lot more to learn with my adult dogs!

 

Even if you have a lot of natural talent for training and for Agility itself, getting good at it is a long process.

 

I'm not saying this to disrespect your hopes at all. I sincerely hope you get as good as you hope to.

 

But I would strongly advise holding off on the "perfect puppy" until you have some competition experience under your belt. Others might disagree, but this has been my experience and it might help to consider it.

 

If you have a dog you are training and trialing with already, then you probably know what I mean!

[MrSnappy]

When I say excel in herding... In my mind reaching that point to being able to trial is in itself excelling.

 

Trialing and excelling are the not same thing at all. I have trialled at stockdog events on more than one occasion, but never have we excelled. In fact, we did not excel in practice either.

 

Your question has been answered many times, in two threads. You most certainly can do agility and stockdog trials with the same dog. You most likely cannot be excellent at both at the same time, for many reasons that have been spelled out to you repeatedly. It is very unlikely you will go to Worlds, then run your dog in Open at Bluegrass.

 

RDM

[Angie H]

 

I just had to add my 2 cents here..I guess it is a bit off topic at this point, but the whole thing about hoping to "get a better one (rescue) next time" really stuck with me and I wanted to note that we (our rescue) get loads of dogs with a great potential as sport dogs and yes, even stock work. One of our rescue alumni's has achieved her MACH, SEVERAL are in competitive agility, and quite a few have come through our rescue and went on to become working dogs.

 

Binx is a rescue - and at least 3/4 of his lines are known working lines...he has shown great promise with stock, though we have only just begun

 

If you are dealing with a reputable rescue, one that knows their dogs, has working knowledge, and understands the breed well, they should be able to match you with what you are looking for in your next dog. You may have to wait for the right dog or pup, but trust me, it is so worth it.

 

Ok - enough preaching

 

 

[Eileen Stein]

Cressa Sisters: Would you please sign your posts, so people responding will be able to tell who is saying what? Thanks.

 

You appear to be putting a lot of effort now into processing what is being said to you, and that is to your credit.

 

I agree with whoever said that it would have been easier to respond to your questions if you had been more upfront about your goals. If you had made it clear that your interests were AKC agility, herding and conformation, I think people would have said that it's quite possible to get titles on a dog in both agility and herding in that venue. And it might have been more evident why you wouldn't be interested in a rescue dog.

[mum24dog]

Why don't I do agility with him? To be honest, I don't think he would be that competitive. He is big, and he would have to jump 26", which is a jump height that makes me cringe. He has a huge stride, which is nice on a 600 yard gather, but rather useless on a 22 obstacle course that occurs in a 70'x120' ring.

 

26in is nothing.

My little 16in mongrel started competing at 30in at a time when there were few classes for her size dog. At 8 years old she can still do it but we don't bother as the rules have changed and she isn't allowed to compete in anything but her own height group - plus there are more classes for her height now anyway. Never had an injury in her life and showing no signs of age.

 

I have a huge striding BC. A friend's BC is enormous and with an even longer stride than mine. (I cringe if they practise over lower heights because they land with the front legs extended rather than flexed.) Honestly, long striding isn't too much of a problem as long as you work on your turns and get your cues in in time.

 

OT I know.

 

Pam

[SoloRiver]

Here is the biography of a trainer I have a great deal of respect for.

 

Diane has been training many different breeds of dogs for over 27 years. Her experience includes obedience, tracking, agility, herding, lure coursing, breed, field, search & rescue, assistance dogs, and guide dogs. She is best known for her accomplishments training older dogs rescued from shelters. She has trained multiple Obedience Trial Champions including the only Pekingese OTCH in history to ever earn this degree (from a Shelter) and a Pomeranian (rescued from a shelter at the age of six!) Diane was on the World agility team for three years l998,l999& 2000 winning gold and silver medals, with her Cocker Spaniel. She had the very first Afghan trained to the highest level of agility at that time (MX,MXJ) also rescued from a shelter. Diane's tracking experience includes a Tracking Title on a Papillon, Golden Retriever, Cocker Spaniel, and the first ever Amer. Can. OTCH Keeshond with a Tracking degree in history, at that time.

 

She also has a Border Collie, rescued as an adult, who has earned her MACH many many times over.

 

I think it's very interesting how some people can do so much with the dogs they have, while others believe they must shop for the "perfect dog" to achieve what they want. Agility isn't just about the stars aligning and finding the "perfect dog." To a large extent, the handler makes the dog that she has. (This is not nearly as true of working. If your dog does not have what it takes, you cannot install it no matter what you do.) I have seen agility classmates train Shiba Inus to be competitive in agility. It took literally years, but they did it. (Way more patience than I have, for anything.)

 

I enjoy agility, have trained 1.5 dogs in it (I say 0.5 because the second dog was a Papillon, and he no longer lives with me) and will be doing agility with my almost 10-month-old puppy although I bought her primarily to be my next sheepdog trial dog and all-around sidekick. I believe that almost any Border Collie will make a good agility dog unless the handler is totally hopeless as a trainer. Training Border Collies in agility is basically cheating, it is so freaking easy compared to working with most other breeds. When people say they cannot find good Border Collies in rescue for agility, sorry, I have to spend some time laughing my pants off.

 

Now, if you must WIN all the time to be happy, well, no one can guarantee you that, no matter where you get a puppy from. Frankly, if it were very important to me to make it to the World Team, I would buy an adult dog of known temperament, structure, and drive, and some training miles on it, same as I would buy an adult, trained, known quantity if I felt I would die without winning in Open sheepdog trials. That is a closest thing to a guarantee you are going to get. That takes all the fun out of it, you say? The problem is that you want a guarantee where none exists. All you can do, if you are dead set on buying a puppy, is find a breeding you like, cross your fingers, and hope for the best.

[Maralynn]

I agree with whoever said that it would have been easier to respond to your questions if you had been more upfront about your goals. If you had made it clear that your interests were AKC agility, herding and conformation, I think people would have said that it's quite possible to get titles on a dog in both agility and herding in that venue. And it might have been more evident why you wouldn't be interested in a rescue dog.

 

 

Now I'm understanding a bit better...

 

One thing I would like to add in here - show BCs are not bred for herding. They are bred to look the best in the conformation ring. Also the possibility of being on the world agility team with a conformation bred BC is pretty slim. You need a more athletic dog.

[airbear]

26in is nothing.

It's nothing for a light-framed dog with a good build. I occasionally practice at 26" for Wick (19.75", 35 lbs). However, when you are talking about a 24" border collie who weighs 54lbs (and not a scrap of fat on him) ... sorry, I used to run my aussie (about same height/weight ratio as Lou) at 26" and perhaps that is why I cringe at that height *with that build of dog*. We have lots of options here in Canada re: jump heights so I could put him in 22" Specials ...

 

I have a huge striding BC. A friend's BC is enormous and with an even longer stride than mine. (I cringe if they practise over lower heights because they land with the front legs extended rather than flexed.) Honestly, long striding isn't too much of a problem as long as you work on your turns and get your cues in in time.

Yes, I suppose I could work on his stride between obstacles, I could do a lot of single jump work, I could do jump grids ... but I have to ask, what's the point? I purchased him as a trialing dog, and he does an excellent job at that. We hardly have time to work sheep, I'm not going to dilute it further by working on his turning radius in a threadle.

 

To the OP, now that your goals have been clarified re: definition of "excel", then my answer is yes. Once you are done with your MACH, go to a trainer that specializes in standard-based trialing (AKC, ASCA). I understand if the instructor is also a judge in that venue, it is very helpful. Some of them will even handle your dog to its championship. There are some dogs around here who have dual championships (agility and herding). Again, it's just how much time and money you have to pursue this.

[SoloRiver]

It's nothing for a light-framed dog with a good build. I occasionally practice at 26" for Wick (19.75", 35 lbs). However, when you are talking about a 24" border collie who weighs 54lbs (and not a scrap of fat on him) ... sorry, I used to run my aussie (about same height/weight ratio as Lou) at 26" and perhaps that is why I cringe at that height *with that build of dog*. We have lots of options here in Canada re: jump heights so I could put him in 22" Specials ..

 

Yup. Solo is 23", 52 lbs, and lots of bone, and I ran him at 26" once and I decided immediately that I was never doing it again. Solo is built like, moves like, and jumps like a horse (incidentally, the conformation people love him, "for a working dog") and, like stadium jumping horses, you can tell that although he can do it, he was never meant to. Even if he hadn't developed joint problems I wouldn't have continued to run him at 26".

[SS Cressa]

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[MrSnappy]

I ran Briggs once at 26." I dropped him to 22" and ran him once, then had to wait a year to drop him to 16." This was before the days of double dropping veterans.

 

Anyway, he was almost 22" at the shoulder and over 50lbs. 26 was just too high, even if he had been a dog with solid joints.

 

RDM

[Debbie Meier]

I actually am more interested in USBCHA or AHBA herding then AKC... Not that it much matters

 

SSC

 

 

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