Agility and Herding Trialing

[SS Cressa]

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[1sheepdoggal]

cuz AKC is the ONLY resgistry worth anything.....

 

 

Um... can some body please explain this to me??

[Pippin's person]

We thought herding would be great. We didnt know everyone would say dont do it.

 

I think you might have misunderstood the posts--no one said "don't do it"--what folks said was that you need to understand that it takes a lot of time to do well and isn't the same as training for performance events.

 

Herding *is* great--it's like nothing I could have imagined, but it is also more intellectually challenging than anything I've *ever* done. I think agility is also much more complex than many people realize--but the fact that you are dealing with three species instead of two and that it's your job to understand both the sheep and the dog really does make it something quite different.

 

It's also the shepherd's responsibility for the stock that makes it so much less about "fun" for the dog and why folks have said stock work is not about fun for the dog. Dogs can do real damage to, including killing, sheep if they aren't directed properly and the sheep aren't there to be stand-in agility obstacles. You didn't claim that anywhere and I'm not assuming that's what you (either of you??) think, but I have seen a number of people who come to stockwork from the dog performance world who don't ever take the time to really understand that it's all about managing the sheep--and the dog is there to make the job of managing the sheep easier for the people. It's not a dog performance event.

 

The competitions really are secondary to that basic fact about it.

[SS Cressa]

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[Laurae]

Herding *is* great--it's like nothing I could have imagined, but it is also more intellectually challenging than anything I've *ever* done.

 

And Robin holds a PhD, so that's saying somethin'.

[Pippin's person]

And Robin holds a PhD, so that's saying somethin'.

 

Ha, I guess the question is *what* it says.... But, it's true that writing the dissertation rather pales (for me) in comparison to the frustrations of trying to read the pressure (and now that I think about it, I've been trying to learn to read the pressure for about the same amount of time it took me to actually write that tome--and I'm still in diapers by stock handling standards. Eegads.)

[1sheepdoggal]

I dont credit AKC for much of anything. We only do it for agility.

 

No?? Then why do you continue to support AKC. By only "doing it for agility" do you not see that you are crediting and supporting them?

[Root Beer]

Those of you in the last post that preached about rescue border collies . . .

 

Why is it that when anyone suggests that it might be worth one's while to consider a homeless dog as a sport dog, we are preaching?

 

It's a suggestion not a sermon.

[Maralynn]

All these posts have told us is: dont bother. Dont do herding. Only focus on one thing. And guess what- your aspirations- they are pointless- good luck. You want to do World Team- HAHAHAHA- what a joke. Just give up now.

 

I beg to differ. The first several posts were trying to get a feel for why you want to do both. It could definitely make a difference in the advice given. From previous posts it sounded as if the main aspirations were to have a top notch agility dog. If that is the case, why do herding? The dog has a great outlet for it's drive and is very satisfied. I see no reason to do herding with a dog because thet is the breeds heritage.

 

The other information was not brought in until later - a place for herding in your own backyard, a family member who is commited (I'm assuming) to learning how to handle the dog and livestock. If you want the best answer for your question, it helps to lay out all the information to start with.

 

Aspirations aren't pointless, but from the sounds of it you know very little about herding and livestock. There is nothing wrong with that. But to do justice to your dog and the livestock you work you'd better be prepared to learn alot about it. BCs don't need to herd livestock to be happy and it is stressful for sheep to have novice dogs working them. So I'll caution people away from it unless they're really prepared to really learn about handling the dog and working with the livestock. The sheep, cattle, ducks, etc deserve that.

 

If you're ready to learn, and you have a dog you can learn with, great, go for it. If that's the case I think you'll come back and look at these posts a year from now in a whole different light.

[Shetlander]

No?? Then why do you continue to support AKC. By only "doing it for agility" do you not see that you are crediting and supporting them?

 

Coming from a sports perspective, this is not an automatic, quick or easy conclusion to reach. Some people get there. Others don't. Many sports people come from many happy years in AKC events with a variety of breeds. They may not like the AKC. They may not like what they see happening to AKC breeds in health, temperament and soundness. But often a big part of their life (free time, money, social) is training and showing their dogs. They don't see the AKC as evil but rather a money driven business that offers sometimes the best or only game in town, depending on where they live. When they come to Border Collies, they are entering a new world if they look beyond sports, which is what many of us have learned to do through these boards.

 

In Donald McCaig's The Dog Wars, I was struck by a very gracious comment he made about obedience people who went with the AKC when they took over the breed amid much protest. And this from a man who seems as far from a fan of the AKC as is possible:

 

"It's easy to seize the high moral ground here: what kind of person would put his or her hobby ahead of a dog breed's welfare? Alas, if the AKC controlled dog trialing, as they control obedience trials, I don't think we dog trialists would have been as brave as we were."

[juliepoudrier]

SSCressa sisters,

I have a farm and I work and trial my dogs. I don't do agility, so I can't really address the agility vs. stockwork question from an agilty experience standpoint. So I just want to make a few observations. What most of the people here have been saying is that it's not easily doable to really excel at two "sports" that require a lot of time, effort, travel, and so on. If it were easy or doable, then we'd probably see more folks doing it, because it seems that agility is fun and so are herding trials. I'd probably enjoy agility and have at least one dog who would as well, but I spend enough time and money on the road to sheepdog trials, and there's the farm to consider when I'm traveling as well (i.e., arranging and paying for a farm sitter).

 

I know Laurie, and she does speak from experience. She and her dogs do well at the lower levels in USBCHA type trials, as she points out. She apparently does really well at agility as well. I think you can trust her if she says that excelling at both with the same dog would be difficult. Not impossible, but difficult.

 

If you happened to have noticed some of the discussions in other areas of this forum (specifically "Under the Handler's Tent") you might have noticed that even people who trial regularly and only trial (i.e., don't do agility or other dog sports) are running up against cost issues. Sheepdog trials are in general fewer and farther between than agility trials, so the time/travel commitment can be even greater. Cressa's owner is in college. Even if the older sister helps out by handling Cressa in sheepdog trials, I still think you'll find it time consuming and expensive to do both.

 

I trial at the open level in USBCHA-type trials. That's what I consider excelling at trialing--not AKC, AHBA, or ASCA, but USBCHA open. I have several young dogs (2 to 2.5 years old) who are plenty handy around the farm--they can do the basic chores I need done to manage my flock and do them well. BUT they are nowhere near ready to step out onto the open trial field. That's the difference--open-level competition is light years away from doing chores on the farm (the subtlety and finesse, bravery and quick thinking that are required on a strange field with unknown--to the dog--sheep is nothing like daily chores on home ground with the home flock). I'm not saying this to take away from the dogs you know who are doing well on the farm at a young age--I'm just pointing out that doing well working on the farm and doing well consistently in open trials are two different things. Someone who hasn't trained dogs to or trialed at the open level would be suitably impressed with my youngsters, but people who DO trial at that level would look at them and maybe see potential for open level trialing (and maybe not). That's a really big difference.

 

It didn't take me 10 years to get to open, but as a novice I was lucky enough to choose a pup who turned out to be a perfect partner *for me* and was steady and natural enough that we were trialing in open before she was three and qualified for the National Finals that year and every year since (but haven't won or even made it to the semifinals in the two finals we've competed in--the other two being too far away to travel to). But for a novice handler to make it to open that quickly starting with a novice dog is unusual, and I certainly haven't repeated that with any of the youngsters I have now (even though I'm now an experienced open handler who places consistently enough). I started out with two rescues, and I was at my trainer's place working them 4-6 times a week learning to work stock with a dog. It was a total commitment and and I think it was time well spent, but I know I wouldn't have had time to pursue another sport as well. And I had the advantage of having grown up on a farm and so at least understood the basics of how stock think and react (that is, I had an advantage over someone who may not have been raised around livestock, because learning how livestock think and react is a HUGE part of learning to work a dog on stock). At last year's National Finals in Gettysburg, when the announcer introduced the final 17 competitors, it struck me that all of them had been competing in open for at least 10 years (there are occasional exceptions, but the point is that you don't get to the top easily--there's more to it than teaching the basics and then just hitting a few trials here and there).

 

Kristi (Airbear) also makes an important point. She is trialing in open with one dog and competing at agility with another, but she bought her open dog fully trained. She didn't have to spend the time laying the groundwork that's necessary to get a dog to that level--someone else did that for her. That doesn't diminish her accomplishments with Lou in the least, but it points up the fact that she probably recognized she didn't have to time to be able to train a dog for top-level stockwork while also doing well with a dog in agility.

 

So, no, stockwork and agility in and of themselves are not mutually exclusive. It's just doubtful that one person (or even two, given that the older sister has a dog of her own she works with?) could manage to excel at both. And if excelling in agility means making the world team, then I think the equivalent in stockwork would be to consistently qualify for the USBCHA national finals, and do well there.

 

It's good to see that you (I'm not sure which one of you at this point) understands that things like AKC titles are necessarily important. I think that at those levels you can get multiple titles, but from a stock working standpoint, I have seen very few titled dogs that I'd want handling my livestock for me.

 

ETA: As for the injury comments, I don't quite get that. I don't think my dogs suffer injuries at a greater rate than people's dogs who do other things. I have one 12-year-old retiree who is dysplastic and whose hips never gave her trouble because of the muscling she developed and maintained as a stockworking dog. Stockwork done right is not overly hard on a dog's body.

 

J.

[SS Cressa]

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[SS Cressa]

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[airbear]

...but she bought her open dog fully trained. She didn't have to spend the time laying the groundwork that's necessary to get a dog to that level--someone else did that for her. That doesn't diminish her accomplishments with Lou in the least, but it points up the fact that she probably recognized she didn't have to time to be able to train a dog for top-level stockwork while also doing well with a dog in agility.

Actually, I didn't have the time, the facilities, and most importantly, the first CLUE about how to train a dog for stockwork. And even though I paid good money for Lou, I consider him an absolute gift, just that perfect dog (for me) that fills me with more confidence that I should have at this nascent point in my trialing career.

 

Why don't I do agility with him? To be honest, I don't think he would be that competitive. He is big, and he would have to jump 26", which is a jump height that makes me cringe. He has a huge stride, which is nice on a 600 yard gather, but rather useless on a 22 obstacle course that occurs in a 70'x120' ring. I've done some stuff with him, and I think he could run a Starters Jumpers course fairly well but I can't help but think "What's the point?". I don't think that his minor agility training has affected his stockwork, but then he literally has about 8 hours of agility training on him in the past 2 years.

 

Anyway, when the Wickens is ready to retire (and the way she's going, that could be in as little as 15 years from now ), I will have to think very hard about whether I have the time/inclination to train up another agility dog. Plus, and don't tell Bear this, I don't think I will ever have another agility partner that could hold a candle to Wick, and I don't know if I could settle for less.

[SS Cressa]

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[Laurae]

as a novice I was lucky enough to choose a pup who turned out to be a perfect partner *for me* and was steady and natural enough that we were trialing in open before she was three and qualified for the National Finals that year and every year since

 

Now you're just rubbing it in, Julie!

[Root Beer]

And considering our experience with other rescues- we were hoping for a "guarenteed" dog- drive, ability, and temperment. As well as good hips. Rescue can really only guaruntee a little..... Even a good dog from rescue can have fears that are not realized till they are placed into the stress that is agility- noise, people, children, many dogs cannot get over a teeter fear. This is all NOT known in rescue.

One of my rescues was a friendly- sweet dog. Acted normal. A little submissive. but stressed alot over noise- not known till tried agility with her. And her hips are a certified mess....

She lives with my brothers in Montana right now- and she is scared of livestock.

 

Is there ever a guarentee? Really?

 

Seriously - what would you do if you found the "perfect" kennel from which to purchase the dog "guarenteed" to have the drive, ability, and temperament that you are looking for, and then the dog turned out to have fears and phobias that you (and/or your sister) need to work through slowly, patiently, and perhaps without real hope of the World Team?

 

It can happen - believe me!

[juliepoudrier]

SSCressa,

Whenever you purchase a puppy, you are purchasing potential not guarantees. A good breeder should be able to give you a good idea about what sort of dog s/he produces with respect to drive, temperament, etc., but you'll never really know if you've got a top agility (or stock) dog until you start training it up and it matures pyhsically and mentally, so it's a fallacy to believe that somehow getting a pup from a breeder vs. a rescue guarantees anything beyond a known pedigree in the former. I'm not pushing rescue, but I really think it's important that anyone considering a pup for anything realize that there truly are no real guarantees. Pups are often referred to as "pigs in a poke" for a reason. Two dogs with excellent hips can produce a dysplastic pup. Epilepsy or deafness (or other diseases) can pop up in a historically very healthy line. Two ideal temperaments can produce a pup with fear or aggression issues, and so on. The only way you can have a reasonable guarantee of health/soundness and temperament is to buy a young dog who is finished growing (so health can be assessed as completely as possible) and who has passed adolescence (so you can have the best chance of seeing what adult temperament is like--dogs' personalities can and do change as they mature--and noise phobias don't often appear until the dog is around 2). I see nothing inherently wrong with a person wanting to buy a pup from a breeder--I just don't think one can justify the choice by saying that you'll have some real guarantee of what you'll end up with in the future.

 

J.

[MrSnappy]

RDM - WHY????

 

BECAUSE I AM THE BIKE POLO KING!!! And experts can't speak about their expertise! That's naughty!!

 

This poster with two personalities doesn't want to hear what you are saying. She/they know(s) everything already. This is a most common theme whenever someone new comes here and is told something she/they doesn't/don't want to hear. Loud or soft, mean or friendly, blunt or gentle as the feather from a newborn waterfowl ... she/they doesn't/don't like the message, no matter how it's delivered, and will argue with you all until you explode. And even when she/they claims to be listening, she/they is/are still arguing with the very good, experienced, intelligent and well articulated points being made.

 

Listen OP(s) - obviously the only reason no one has ever been the King of Herding and the King of Agility at the same time is because they never thought of it. You were the very first person/people to ever think of it. Never mind the collective experience, skills and knowledge being thrown at you - ignore this hogwash!! Please immediately import a colourherding bred dog from the UK and go on to dominate all sports (except bike polo, that one is mine!!) and prove everyone wrong. You can be anything you want to be and accomplish anything you want to accomplish!!

 

I mean, does it matter what any of us think? You asked for opinions on a kennel and then argued with the opinions. You argued with the opinions about cross training and the likelihood of being highly successful at both activities. You got annoyed with people for suggesting rescue (those bastards!). You brushed off the well intended messages about the history, motivation and mental make-up of the breed. Basically, you think what you want to think and I observe this and feel badly for all these well intentioned people who are trying really hard to explain something important to you that you don't care or want to understand. That's why I cannot take you seriously.

 

We are not remembered for our intentions; we are remembered for our accomplishments. Many of the people who are speaking to you have accomplished quite a bit. I'll always remember their good advice and input. What do you have to offer besides snide comebacks?

 

Oh no wait! That's me!!!

 

*headdesk*

 

RDM

[SS Cressa]

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[SS Cressa]

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[C Crocker]

Hi

I have 2 border collies.... Yawn..... And actually- while many dogs poorly built cannot do livestock because of the strain on body - agility is a good alternative- it builds good muscle, and you go at your own pace.

Herding actually does more damage to a dog than agility.....

 

 

I use a particular chiropractor for my sheepdogs ( and my horses and myself) who was the chiropractor for the World Agility Trial held in Switzerland in 2006, as well as the big agility trials here in the USA. She also began working on many sheepdogs the last few years ( she worked on my Nursery dog at the 2006 Sheepdog Nat'l Finals, among others). I say this to illustrate her experience in both agility and working border collies. She has told me that indeed , baring individual injuries which can occur anytime anywhere, that she finds overall the sheepdogs to be in much better shape that the agility dogs. That is just her experience after treating thousands of dogs, but it is an opinion opposite of your statement.

 

Carolyn

[Laurae]

The thing is, it's pretty clear to many of us that you don't even know what you don't know, and you come off as super cocky and arrogant...often, you get what you give...

[SS Cressa]

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[mum24dog]

as for world team- is just a dream- why cant a handler aspire to something big- haven't you ever had a crazy dream of winning something? Also- it tells people you are SERIOUS. And most people DO not take young handlers serious.

 

Actually it tells people the writer may be naive rather than serious.

As for taking young handlers seriously - I don't know what it's like over there but here we sure do.

Two of the 4 GB team members that came 3rd recently in the European Open are aged 16 and 18 and have been competing at top level for several years (the 16 year old has run his own club for 3 years or so). I think the youngest person to win a Championship class was 16 and my own daughter won a reserve Championship a couple of weeks ago at 17 (competing against the adults since she was 10.)

We have a 10 year old in our club team for a Crufts qualifier.

Chronological age is irrelevant - maturity and application are what counts. A good handler gets respect whatever their age.

That's what I like about agility.

 

Pam