SS Cressa Posted July 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 wipe message Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Now to answer your question, I guess I need to know what "excel" means to you. In a previous topic, you indicated your goal is to get on the World team. I assume you mean the US team that goes to the FCI worlds? That is an incredibly difficult task, given the sheer number of agility competitors, the amount of time/money you need to spend going to trials, try-outs, invitationals, and the like. As you know, it's more than putting a MACH on your dog. I'm amazed at how incredibly competitive agility is at the highest levels. In the Nationals, the top several dogs are all coming in within hundreths of a second of each other. The handler has to run no holds barred and it is so easy to crash and burn. I've been fortunate enough to have two instructors who have just missed being in the top 4 Nationally a number of times. One of them was on the World Team one year but that is an accomplishment that's not easily repeated except for the few truly amazing, stand outs who do win year after year at the National levels. But the part that kinda boggles my mind is this need to somehow honour the dog's heritage by "doing herding". I know lots of agility dogs here and in the States who come from excellent working dogs, who are themselves just incredible agility dogs, and who have never seen a sheep/duck/whathaveyou. These dogs are not suffering, they do not feel a deep-rooted need to "herd" kids or cats. They are well-loved pets, they get to play with their human almost every weekend. I don't think they are missing out on much. That is always good to hear. I really think Quinn would love nothing more than to work sheep every day. He is sports bred and I know he's limited as to how far he'd go in trials, but he'd be handy around a farm, based on what his instructor says. Maybe this sounds stupid, but I do take him to sheep several times a year simply because he is so blasted happy out there and I am oddly thrilled to watch him. We're just doing it for fun -- or maybe I'm just doing it for fun... I'm sure Quinn strongly believes Sheep Are His Destiny. I guess I can't resist watching him look so content and fulfilled, even though he looks perfectly happy around the house. This is a crummy photo from several lessons back when they were pausing for a few seconds. Though Quinn almost never acknowledges me when he's in with sheep, this time he actually turned to look at me as he stood in front of the sheep and gave me a big goofy smile. I could almost hear him asking if he could take them home with us. And Apres Lesson, not suffering too much from being 90 miles away from his Destiny: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 I know people who do obedience, 4H, and herding with their border collies. AND are looking to start agility as well. Jack of all trades Master of None... There's only been 1 dog that has gotten an OTCh. and won an open trial. Granted getting a MACH is easier than an OTCh so why believe all you hear here, go for it with your imported puppy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 I guess I don't look at my dog as having "Fun", he is driven to handle stock, he knows that if he follows my commands he gets to work for me and handle the stock, if I let him go out and do things in a manner that makes him look like he is having fun, it's wrong. He is in a "Have Fun" mindset which does not bode well with control and a high level of work. I don't mind letting a pup have fun with the stock, as long as his fun does not lead to bad habits, such as excessive gripping, chasing or harrassing. From what I understand getting a title is not that tough, under the right circumstances it can be quite easy, but that is why people asked as to what level or organization does your sister wish to compete. The work required to earn titles can be totally different then that needed to compete Novice at and open field trial. Personally, the standard of work I am trying to achieve is that of USBCHA trials, I don't know that I will ever get there, but I am competing against people that have been trialling in other organizations successfully and are mystified with how to get things done in the USBCHA style trials. That being said, what is acceptable work to achieve a title in one organization may not even get you to the post in another. When people say title I think AHBA, AKC and ASCA, no titles in USBCHA, you just start out as a Novice, work to get to Pro-novice, and have asperations to some day be able to run in Open and maybe someday qualify for the National Finals, do well at Nationals and maybe someday you can land on the World Team, yeah right, that's what dreams are made of (in my case anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted July 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 wipe message Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Shoot, where's RDM now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted July 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 wipe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 We are both serious agilty competitors- going to a 3 day show minimum once every three weeks. We have a national handler as instructor (won nationals on several events USDAA and AKC) and her dog will likely be on the World Team next year. So excelling in agility is kinda easy- we have a great instructor. Once every 3 weeks? That's dabbling in agility over here. 30 weekends we'll be competing this year (missing 3 weekend shows and 2 week long ones) and we're not even that serious. I know distance must be a problem for you over there though. 4 hours is the longest we travel to get to a show. Of course it helps to have a great instructor but it takes much, much more to get to the top. I'm sure your instructor doesn't thinks it's "kinda easy" to excel. Airbear is right - it takes 100% committment and money to excel in anything. There are only so many hours in the day both for dog and handler. When do either get any down time if they're working as hard as they need to to do well in more than 1 discipline? I'd say choose one to play with, one to take seriously. Just been talking to 2 farmers at our agility club tonight. Agility is their dogs' hobby - herding is their job (no time for trials). One of the dogs is 9 years old and works both Shetland and normal (ie flocking) sheep and the other is 20 months and works sheep, cattle and horses. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Shoot, where's RDM now? Didn't she say something about "vacation" in another thread.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 The greatest thing about the breed is its VERSITALITY- So why people think this breed cant do 2 jobs is making me a little confused..... Nope. The greatest thing about the breed is its ability to work livestock. That's not to say some individual dog couldn't go to the top in two or more pursuits, or shouldn't, or whatever. But that's not what the breed is about. Just wanted to keep that clear. I know people who do obedience, 4H, and herding with their border collies. AND are looking to start agility as well. So do I! But you asked about people who go to the top (or at least its implied in your question) in both pursuits. By you I mean you or your sister, whoever the heck is signed on (you should get your own account, sister, it's confusing to be two people unless you are VERY CLEAR who is who like the Billadeaus). Anyway, I've seen dogs who start out in agility and they are often hampered by the notion that they need to "check in" constantly - and by the fact that their handlers can't get rid of the notion that they should be "making" their dog do something - they have trouble letting go and letting the dog just work. I know it's irresistible, but I have to smile when I see the handler try to guide the dog around the sheep with an outstretched hand, as if the sheep were a troublesome A-frame placed too near a tunnel. Most get past this with some effort, but it's an example of how there's a basic difference at work that has to be overcome in both dog and handler minds. Then after you've gotten to square one, you've got to do the legwork. There is no substitute for learning how to read livestock - it cannot be figured out overnight, read in a book, taught in a few lessons, or garnered from a couple of videos. Trust me on this, I've raised sheep for ten years and they still surprise me greatly in trial situations - where I haven't done much work watching their behavior compared to some of my peers who've been trialing as long as I've been farming. It never ceases to amaze me how people come on here and like to tell people here all about stock work, when they haven't done much more than taken a couple lessons, or watched a breeder's dog work, or gone to a couple title-awarding venue trials. You'll just have to trust us when we say it can't be done in a few years. To reach the level of even winning consistently at Open level stockdog trials, it takes a minimum of ten years - seriously. There may be a couple people who have shot to the top in six or seven years, but even they will tell you they got lucky PLUS worked hard PLUS didn't really feel 100% competent until they'd been at it a decade. As for the people who are suspicious of a person having someone else handle her dog in herding- havent you ever watched your dog have fun and just smiled- I've had someone run my dog in competitions and though I was proud of my dog, it ate me up inside that I wasn't the one out there with him. When he won and I got the ribbons and my friend took the dog home (or further away on campaign where I couldn't follow), it was horribly hollow - a very bad tradeoff. I don't think I'd do it again, although I could end up eating my words sometime. I'll have someone else put some training on my dog, but it's for a particular purpose, to have him 100% ready for lambing next year, and also so I can trial with him before he's nearly dead of old age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurie etc Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 I always thought border collie could do both herding and agility and excel at them. Comments from my previous post made me wonder... Can border collie excel at herding and agility? If yes, do you train herding and agility together? Or do you just teach one then the other? If no, why not? I've been lurking today and trying to sell some sheep - but I read this thread and thought I'd respond with some of my own experience. I work my dogs on sheep (primarily) and also have run/trained in agility with a three of them. I teach agility, and have been doing it for about 12 years. I have competed three dogs successfully in both agility and herding trials at the Novice/Pro Novice so it's not mutually exclusive; but I can almost promise you that your Border Collie trained to excel in agility (the way it is now- not 10 years ago) will not be a candidate for USBCHA Open trialing. IMO, it's the mindset you develop in the dog for agility that will work against you. Whole different mindset for stockwork. In agility, quick reactions, pumped adrenaline, break neck speed, throwing caution to the wind is what that game is about. You can have a dog trained that way and finish AHBA and AKC "all-breed" herding championships, where the stock is fairly well broke, and the dog is never out of voice command range. I've finished 4 AHBA Championships in short order, 2 of the 4 on dogs who also do agility at the Excellent/Masters level. The mindset a dog needs to train/compete successfully at the Open level in sheepdog trials is so entirely different - he needs to be tuned in to the handler, but in charge of the sheep; be slow and thoughtful as necessary, authoritative as necessary; alternating lighting fast reaction with subtle, near-motionless control. To do that he can not be pumped up to the hilt. He cannot just react quickly- he can't think of sheep as a "game" - it's dead serious work. He has to listen and think and feel, and much of that comes from genetics; but also also comes from training and lifestyle. I find my most success in either venue when I take training breaks from one or the other and concentrate on one sport. And if I had a dog that I thought could really succeed at the Open sheepdog level - first - I'd work on control and sheepdog mindset; second, I'd not do anything with that dog that was counter productive to that mindset. Laurie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Sue R Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 It never ceases to amaze me how people come on here and like to tell people here all about stock work, when they haven't done much more than taken a couple lessons, or watched a breeder's dog work, or gone to a couple title-awarding venue trials. Thanks, Becca, for pointing this out. It's very easy to be an "expert" when you have a little exposure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Yeah, it's amazing. Almost as amazing as how we don't hear from the true experts much- apparently, they haven't the need to inform posters how woefully lacking they are. True experts- the folks who are at the top in this and other countries, don't seem to need to say anything.... So funny, when I had a lesson with one of this countries top trialers, I was a complete dolt, I mean *really* bad, and I never felt like he thought any less of me, and he never once preached, even when I said things that were completely as I have learned off base, and wrong. He was nothing but helpful, and made me want to learn more. And, what's more, he used the term "herding" more than once Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Shoot, where's RDM now? I can't say anything! I took a vow of silence!! I *dare* you to ask me why! MR. WOO ATE THE AKC FOR BREAKFAST!! "Get. In. Mah. BELLY!!!!" I'm never asking for advice here! You people are mean! RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Oh. My. Well, I was going to go to sleep in about three hours but I'm afraid now. Mr. Woo's gonna get me! I promise I'll be good now . . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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MrSnappy Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 OMG. I don't know how you guys can stand it. *facepalm* RDM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 I love watching my dog be handled by a friend for a day in agility- watching my dog have fun and excel- but mostly have FUN- its an enjoyable aspect. If i was ever injured- my dog would continue in aglity- run by friends- and i would watch and smile Oh, and my border collie from the good old usa- from nice herding lines registerd ABCA- ABSOLUTELY NO AKC blahblah blah- has back issues- so CANNOT do the work it was meant to.. Oh, right, yes, I see. The "work" it was meant to do it can't because? Wouldn't be due to "agility" now would it? Nah, how could that be? Strange that it can run agility but not work stock..... Mr Woo, thank you RDM - WHY???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Shetlander Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 SS Cressa Sisters, I think some of what may be happening in this thread is a collision of very different world views. The working people and the sports people. Both use terms that are not always fully understood by the other. Even though you feel some of the answers haven't been helpful, what many people on these boards feel passionately about is keeping the original purpose of the breed -- to work stock. Everything else is (wonderful) gravy. When a sports person asks about excelling at both agility and herding, maybe they are thinking about dual or triple champions they've seen. I know of a BC who has 4 championships, breed, obedience, agility and herding. The point that you may be missing is that titles and championships in the US are through the AKC. The working/herding folks do not view AKC trials as anywhere near the challenge and true test of a Border Collie's ability. So in answer to the original question on this thread -- can you excel in both agility and herding? Yes, if by excel you mean a MACH and whatever the AKC herding champion title is called. If you mean world team and winning at Open, probably not. Either of those goals is huge and hard for most mortals. Achieving both seems impossible if only in terms of limited days in a week. I'm just a slacker sports person. I don't even train my dogs right now, much less show them. I'm impressed that you and your sister see excelling in agility as so easy or at least so achievable. Maybe it's my middle age or tiny IQ but the more I did agility, the more I realized I didn't know. I find the sport pretty darn complex to do it extremely well. When I was training Quinn, especially in his foundation work, I felt like I was working on a freaking physics project. Currently (slacker!), I do Disc Dog with him for fun and let the instructor work him at his occasional sheep lessons. Anyway, I got Quinn in the usual way of sports people, by talking to other sports people and going to a sports breeder. After his arrival, I came across these boards. I began to learn the difference between working lines and working breeders. Huge difference, by the way. I came to see the difference between herding and prey behaviors and between instinct and ability. Quinn is one of the least "herdy" (a sports person's term sure to drive the working people nuts) BC's I've seen but the second he saw sheep, he became intense and focused in a way I had never seen before. That sort of thing. There is an education to be had here and immense love for Border Collies. I hope you both will find lots of information as you continue with this fantastic breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Laurae Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 HiI have 2 border collies.... Yawn..... And actually- while many dogs poorly built cannot do livestock because of the strain on body - agility is a good alternative- it builds good muscle, and you go at your own pace. Plus- you can jump at alternate heights- so not so much impact. My border took months of rehab just to loosen up his back a bit- i have to massage him regularly and heat/ice..... Herding actually does more damage to a dog than agility..... But you guys know soooo much about BOTH agility and herding- so you already knew that- right? No- but let me guess, you guys dont know what a massage therapist is, or a chiropractor is either......right? Sorry -this is hilarious- keep posting.... I was thinking i would have a boring night..... Um, time to take your meds maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Herding actually does more damage to a dog than agility..... Ok, ouch! This kind of statement, made by someone who has very limited experience training and working dogs on stock, is only going to cause this thread to really deteriorate. You may know tons about agility! I know a fair amount about agility -- though again, one of the things I learned wasn't that it was easy for me personally to do well. I know almost nothing about working stock though I do try to listen to what the instructor is saying at Quinn's lessons and I love reading what people on these Boards have to say. I can tell you what I think about agility being hard on a dog's body. I won't even try to compare it to the effects of working stock. Quinn did take a very hard tumble at a lesson last year that put his spine, hip and shoulder seriously out of whack. Quinn takes really hard tumbles in our backyard. In fact, so far he's taken one tumble working sheep and I don't even want to think how many chasing a ball or going after a Frisbee, which granted, he does much more of than working sheep. But really, if you are looking to keep a conversation going in any kind of helpful form, the quote above isn't going to help accomplish that goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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