william virginia Posted July 26, 2008 Report Share Posted July 26, 2008 i have asked the expert, i would like your input on subject. A special thanks to Kelpiegirl for her response. here is problem. my seven year old BC has a good outrun, squaring, driving.however we have a problem with confrontational sheep. as long as i keep BC at a distance sheep will more and all go well. when i shorten the conford zone a couple of sheep will charge and back him off. i have tried to get him to snap at them but he will only back down and circle them and gather them. i have heard several methods to try and get him to grip the sheep. what is you recommendations. PS i have a three year old, had only 3 months, and only in beginning stages of training. they will not even think of backing him off. he will grip them in a second. thanks for the help bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 To mum23dogs: Sometimes a grip is needed. Most time not. But sometimes it is, and when you need a grip, you need an honest one, and not a cheap shot. That's why it's important that the dog is taught the proper grip. To the OP, one thing- why are you moving him in? Sometimes sheep need a bigger bubble, or they will be more prone to fighting. I (and my dog) learned this well not long ago. Can you describe the scenarios? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 To mum23dogs:Sometimes a grip is needed. Most time not. But sometimes it is, and when you need a grip, you need an honest one Is it not a disqualification in trials over there then? Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Depends on the grip—whether the judge thinks it was merited and was "fair" (i.e., not a cheap shot). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Mum24dogs, Don't forget that trialing is actually based on real work, and there are times around the farm when a grip is absolutely needed. Presumably at trials the dog won't encounter the sort of sheep that need a grip (a nasty ram, an overprotective mama, etc.), so it makes sense to DQ a dog who grips, and that is generally the case here at trials. On only one occasion has a judge (from the U.K.) allowed a grip by one of my dogs. The situation was a ewe who turned on the drive and challenged every dog that drew her at the trial. When she got into a standoff with my dog, my dog bit her on the nose and let go. The ewe turned and continued around the course. The judge told me after that he hadn't DQed me because the ewe had challenged the dog and the dog had gripped properly (i.e., proper location, didn't hang on). But that's pretty rare, and usually a dog is DQed for any grip. A dog who absolutely won't grip can be a liability at home, for many reasons. I had a ram who hit me on more than one occasion. I sent him down the road, but before I got rid of him, I wouldn't enter his paddock without a dog, and the dog's job was to protect me, so if the ram came at me, the dog was to come in between us and stop him by biting him on the nose. If I'm putting feed out and the flock is trying to run me over to get to the feed, I want a dog who is willing to grip to stop them. If a ewe with a lamb is downright nasty and I'm trying to get sheep moved and we have given that ewe every option to turn and go on with the flock and she continues to come after the dog, then I want the dog to grip her. That's not to say that gripping is usual work or even desired most of the time, since the whole goal of using the dogs is stress-free management of stock. But there are occasions when a grip is necessary, and it's nice if the dog has one to use. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 I have witnessed many grips during trials judged by both US and UK (or at least originally hailing from the UK) judges here. Some were DQed, but generally those dogs were hanging on. Most were allowed but points were docked. The degree to which gripping is allowed probably depends on the sheep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 On only one occasion has a judge (from the U.K.) allowed a grip by one of my dogs. The situation was a ewe who turned on the drive and challenged every dog that drew her at the trial. When she got into a standoff with my dog, my dog bit her on the nose and let go. From what I gather, biting on the nose isn't an automatic DQ here. As in your case, it can be justified. I guess you probably have more aggressive sheep than we do too. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eileen Stein Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 From what I gather, biting on the nose isn't an automatic DQ here. As in your case, it can be justified.I guess you probably have more aggressive sheep than we do too. Pam I think we do have more aggressive sheep than you do, as a generality. Another thing to consider is that a dog who knows he can grip will often show more confidence than a dog who is afraid he is out of options, and therefore (if this makes sense) he needs to have a grip in his arsenal even though having the grip will result in fewer situations developing where he needs to use it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Crocker Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 From what I gather, biting on the nose isn't an automatic DQ here. As in your case, it can be justified. I guess you probably have more aggressive sheep than we do too. Pam [/quotPam, That is possible as the different sheep being a concern in parts of the the USA. This past March in California the judge. Frank Cashen from Ireland said in the handlers' meeting that he would accecpt a quick grip on the nose ( only) if needed , as he "knew our" range ewes . No cheap shots, no hanging on allowed. Carolyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 My best dog has a grip and he wil use it. Someone said a grip is useful and gives the dog some extra confidence and I agree. I did not actually train the grip, he did it by himself but I did jump in with a command when he did and we worked on it. He will now move in for a grip on commend. I don't need to use it very often but sometimes it helps and it really does make a point with stock who become familiar with the dog. I am not sure how you would actually train a grip. I expect however if you let the dog in tight when he has a situation that may call for a grip that he will move in by himself. If your dog has confidence and power he will likely use it on his own. I am training my youngest dog now and he seems to be willing to grip and I had nothing to do with it. He first started to use a grip when we were moving stock from a small pen into an open area. He will use the grip in tight and seems to know when to use it on his own. Not much of a suggestion but perhaps your dog will come by it naturally and you can take it from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 sorry about double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 One of my dogs recently got DQ'd for a grip, I wasn't mad because the judge told us upfront that all but defensive grips (the sheep would have to be trying to run the dog into the ground, etc) would be DQ'd. I wasn't mad at the dog either, because the ewe challenged her, it was a downhill course and other dogs were losing their sheep left and right. I'd much rather she be strong in that situation than lose her sheep or get stuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Last night I was working a young dog that just arrived, she has been thrashed for gripping prior to coming here, to the point where she flat out did not want to look at sheep anymore. A real nice situation came about last night, Jake was holding the sheep still from the rear sorta against the fence, she was walking in, more holding her ground on balance. One of the ewes stomped her foot and this little female came in popped her on the nose and went back out to balance. To me that was perfect, especially for a young dog that has gotten in a lot of trouble for hanging on. Since Jake had the escape covered it allowed her to get in and out without the excitement of causing the sheep to run, which I think in the past lead to her hanging and getting into trouble. With any luck I will be able to get her to grip at the right times in the right manner and go on about her business. I have another male here that won't grip, he has been rolled, thumped on, slammed into fences by ewes, he get up, gets in their face and stares at them, eventually he might make the motions of gripping and ear or nose, but not even hard enough to pinch. I doubt that this dog will ever learn to grip with authority, but I have to give him credit for his desire to keep trying, he does not get chased out, just rolled out... Though, he might surprise me, he is in the right places at the right time, just not wanting to be aggressive with anything but his eye and presence. I have a third dog, female that IMO grips sheep perfect, you don't see it often, for the most part only when we are working pens, if a ewe challangers her she will tattoo them with 4 little blood marks on the end of their nose for their effort, she'll do this and go right back to her job, if it was walking up, holding a gate, an alley, or reschooling sheep that have pummelled the male I described above. I did nothing to develop it, it was just there, I suppose it is possible the first time she found her feet and applied a grip the stars aligned and she stumbled upon the perfect combination to be very powerful but still fair and I was too shocked to accidently tell her no. I guess it is possible that your dog does not grip because it does not need to. I guess the only thing I could think of is to set up situations that are high pressure but under control to see if your dog will grip to hold things together or just takes the hit like my male does. I think most dogs will defend themselves in that situation, which could be a tool to help show the dog that he can use it when needed. Personally the only time I think a grip is needed is if the dog is defending himself or if the sheep are refusing to move off when steady pressure is applied. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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