distance off sheep

[kelpiegirl]

For the longest time, I believed that my dog was just plain being difficult, when it came to "downing" on sheep. It wasn't all the time, but enough that I was almost done fighting it. I learned that when my dog is sufficiently off the sheep- so she can see the forest for the trees as it were, she responds nicely to the down, and she feels in control. When she is too close, that is when she just cannot settle (as the sheep can't either). So, to that end, those of you who have done this WAAAAY longer than me- how do you start your dogs, and work your young dogs so as to not push them off too far, but keep them off enough, so you hit that sweet spot, so to speak? What I am getting at, is now I know what I have to work on with my dog, but my future dog, I don't want to miss this important step. I know some dogs tend to be too wide, and you would like them a little closer out of the box, but I am talking about a dog who doesn't (via pedigree) tend to be too wide, but one who is keen, and wants to work close- how do you get them out, and how long, given good training, does that take to achieve?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've worked with, now, three dogs in a row who are like night and day when comparing working at a proper distance, and working too close, when they fall to pieces. Ted, on the other hand, is pretty controllable working tight, so it spoiled me a bit. Now we are working on getting him out, too.

 

Every dog is different. You've got to experiment and find out what helps your dog feel the place she needs to be, better. And it will depend on her, and you, as to how long that takes. Gus needed a refresher when he got here, but I knew the "owner's manual" (what Kathy K does), and he responded almost immediately - but he needs reminders every so often. I worked on Eddie for about three months, and he still needed lots of work when he left - but eventually he will work quite well on his own. Bet caught on right away, but she'll always need reminders - what I focused on with her was all about teaching her to accept the correction. I worked with Ted three times and apparently we're ready to move on to the next step, though I haven't been able to do it yet (thunderstorms all last night).

[stockdogranch]

Of course, that distance will be different for each dog and each packet of stock, as how much presence the dog has will determine how much pressure the dog puts on the stock. In other words, there is no arbitrary magic distance between stock and dog. And the dog needs to learn to feel that distance, so that, on any given day, on any given packet of stock, the dog will self-adjust accordingly. So, rather than you putting the dog in the right spot, the dog has to learn to find it. So the question is: how do you get the dog to learn to do that? Round pen. At least initially, using the correction voice when the dog is putting too much pressure on the stock (i.e., too close). Once the dog knows what you mean by that correction voice, and is responding to it, then I like to move out of the round pen and into the pasture. Doesn't mean the dog now magically knows how to feel any and all stock, as it still hasn't experienced much other than "school sheep." This is what I use a lot of walkabouts for (Jack jokingly calls them "walkies" (after Barbara Woodhouse) and makes fun of me for it, but it works for me). I will start mixing up the sheep, slowly adding lighter sheep, heavier (stubborn, not knee-knockers) sheep, sheep who want to leave the group, a few sheep, a lot of sheep (40 or more), and so on, over the ensuing weeks and months. I just go for a walk, at first walking backwards to make sure the dog is at a walk and not running sheep over me, but then just walking facing forwards, and letting the dog bring the sheep to me. I sometimes walk a straight line, sometimes big loopy S curves, sometimes really square "military" turns, so that the dog has to reposition to keep in balance. Speed up to flank, then slow down again when in the balance position. I don't say much at all (no flank commands), just keep walking. If the sheep are putting too much pressure on me, slamming into the backs of my legs, or trying to rush past me, then I'll just growl a bit, and say take time. If absolutely necessary, I might lie the dog down, but mostly we just keep moving. I also will vary my walking speed--sometimes a brisk walk, sometimes more of a stroll, so the dog has to figure out how to not push the stock over me. I let the dog figure it out back there--they seem to learn to feel/read their sheep and thus learn a decent pace, so that later on, I don't have to constantly make them slow down or hurry up. It also helps with their flanks--if they tend to be slicy, as you make your curves, you can step into them ever so slightly as to make them square. I find the more I do this with with a young dog, the better they seem to learn to read their stock.

 

 

A

[Pippin's person]

Of course, I haven't been doing this for long at all, so take this or leave it, but we had an interesting lesson this week-end that worked on this very issue. I found it very helpful and I think it did a lot for Hamish (who is also tight at the top and gets into a lot of messes because of it).

 

It was essentially working the "discovery" method. It was the dog's job to figure out how he got to have the sheep. The sheep were being held in a pen with a holder and another dog there as well (the trainer noted that you can't really hold the sheep in a pen very often or very much for obvious reasons--but for this one lesson, he said it would let us work on this issue without the sheep leaving). I sent Hamish on about a novice-sized outrun and every single time he started to run tight, I lied him down and then called him off. He's used to being lied down and having me walk out toward the sheep, tell him to "get out of that" and then sending him around again. This was the first time, he'd been called off completely from the outrun--particularly at the top when he wanted to come in and slice.

 

So, about the third time I called him back, I sent him on an outrun and he really went into discovery mode--he tried a couple of different things--all of which were keeping him off the sheep (he went along the fence, for instance) and once he got behind the sheep at a nice distance, I lied him down and the holder let the sheep out of the pen and he got to work them--bringing them to me and doing a little driving away. It was really, really neat to see him work that out and after that, all his outruns were wider at least initially--he still wanted to slice at the top a couple of times, but he got called back each time. We were also really exaggerating what we expected of him and he gave me a couple of looks of real surprise when I called him back.

 

The other thing we did was to stand with our backs to a fence and have Hamish bring the sheep between us and the fence and then, when he got to the point of the greatest pressure on him (essentially right behind us with the sheep a little ways past), we lied him down and he had to feel the pressure and also feel that it wasn't going to kill him. After a couple rounds of that, he was working pretty nicely and able to adjust to stay off the sheep rather than trying to blast through the pressure.

[Angie H]

he really went into discovery mode--he tried a couple of different things--all of which were keeping him off the sheep (he went along the fence, for instance) and once he got behind the sheep at a nice distance, I lied him down and the holder let the sheep out of the pen and he got to work them--bringing them to me and doing a little driving away. It was really, really neat to see him work that out and after that, all his outruns were wider at least initially...

I too LOVE to watch them "figure it out"; which can be difficult to for some of us to allow. I know myself, I have been so wired to tell the dog what I want him to do, that it is an exercise in itself for me to keep my mouth shut, stop nagging, and let the dog figure it out!

 

It sounds like Hamish had a really big breakthrough this weekend. Congratulations!

[jdarling]

Very interesting topic! Excellent post, Anna. I am starting a couple of young dogs right now, so getting the dogs to feel the pressure and check up on their own -- rather than me lying them down all the time (oh the joys of novicehood) -- is on my forefront. Making the dog responsible for the messes they cause has really helped me to see how this all works, and helps the dog see where the pressure point is. I do the walkabouts like Anna does, not saying much, if anything at all, and very early on, rather than growling or doing the take time, I switch places with the dog when they push too hard. That way the dog has to then work twice as hard to get back to balance. Basically, picture in a line: (arrow indicates direction of movement) (here goes nothing ...)

 

(<---) me ... (<---) the sheep ... (<---) the dog.

 

If the dog pushes to hard, and it starts to turn into:

 

(<---) the-me-sheep (sheep passing me) ... (<---) the dog

 

Then I turn a 180 degrees and go the other way to where it looks like this ...

 

(<---) the sheep ... (<---) the dog ... (--->)me

 

So the dog has to go all the way around and make it ...

 

the dog (--->) ... the sheep (--->) ... me (--->)

 

I love watching the lightbulb turn on in the dog's head when they start to push too hard, and then all of a sudden, they will slow up or stop completely ... and even very styley dogs will almost stand straight up when they start to realize what's going on. Then I start introducing the growl ... or the take time ... and it's been working out very nicely.

 

Jodi

[hsnrs]

Great topic. We've been trying to get our wild sheep dog broken and work dog around the place. Today we had trouble getting dog to fetch sheep at home. Will try the suggestions Anna. Love this BC board. Learning so much now that we are working here. It is going pretty well but we have a long way to go also. Trainer is at a trial so no lesson this week; bummer. N