Fearful or Aggressive or just under socialized?

[Angie H]

This is a new thing for me - I don't usually post problem behaviors on a forum - mostly because 1) I realize it is difficult to truly get a read on the dog through a post. and 2) I can sometimes be a wee bit bull-headed - as in thinking that I already know what's going on.

 

Well, I'm a little bit baffled with one of my current foster dogs, and after reading through this board for several months, there are quite a few experienced BC people here - and some of you have dealt with many of the same type of behaviors that we have to address with our rescue intakes and fosters.

 

So here it goes - Maybe someone out there can see something I'm not seeing or maybe there is a suggestion out there that I have not tried yet -

 

Meet Cammie

 

She has been in rescue since October, and I took her home with me to foster in March.

 

Cammie is very unpredictable around other dogs, so she lives downstairs in my temperature controlled, carpeted kennel with her own window and a large crate. I cannot trust her to be free with the rest of the pack, and she has some barrier aggression issues, so I go down and train with her and run her 3 times a day - before work, after work, before bed time. We do the "if Cammie is out, all other dogs are in" routine - it is tiring but necessary.

 

She is brilliantly smart, has quite a sense of humor, and is now trim and athletic as well (she has lost weight since being exercised every day). She was picked up as a stray; the finder took her home and attempted to keep her on his farm, but he said she attacked his goat and she had to go.

 

She came to me already knowing the command "that'll do" and is an excellent and very precise ball player - will put it where you tell her, etc. When given the "That'll Do" cue, she will promptly bring the ball to the back door (the entrance to her room) and hop in the water to cool off (drinking while she wades in it). Then she waits at the door to be let back into her kennel. She will also lie down on command when still 20 to 30 feet away from me. These are the things that make me wonder if she weren't someone's farm chore dog at some point??

 

She could care less about petting, but does allow it and I have seen her leap onto my husband and lick his face - but that is not the norm; I have been working to teach her how to bond by showing her how much fun it is to train together and go places in the car when the weather is decent. I have "hugs" on cue, and she will do it for a cookie - but it is very obvious that it is only to appease me - LOL! She has definitely decided that I am her person and she demonstrates that she wants to please me and respects me - so that's a good thing.

Ok - about her other dog issues ....

 

She has serious barrier aggression - which makes sense since she has spent so much time in a kennel prior to my place - she still has to be kenneled, but it is quiet there and at least now she gets exercise and there is no fence fighting. She has gotten somewhat better with this, but if another dog simply gets too close to her crate, or if there is a fence between them, etc. - she turns into a raging maniac - lips pulled back, baring those gorgeous pearly whites, spit flying everywhere, and a big deep bark to go with it. I can introduce her to the same dog without the barrier, and she will sniff and go on about her way - as long as the other dog does not sniff for too long or touch her face.

 

This is the part I can't figure out... There is no consistent sex or age of dog that sets her off. The only consistency so far is that there are several senior dogs at the farm (retired working dogs mostly) - they are 10 plus years old, and she has never curled her lip at one of them. Then again, they don't care to extend greetings either. Maybe the younger dogs are more scary because they bounce all about and are over zealous? Or maybe she is simply being a witch to the younger ones and respects her elders?

 

I used to think it was only females, but nope - I've seen her go crazy on 2 or 3 year old laid back/neutered males too.

 

Shockingly, she is pretty good with my new BC pup, Binx (maybe she just sensed not to mess with him ;-)! He is a 7 month neutered male. - He has really good dog sense though...he just seems to know when to turn his head, when to walk away, etc.

 

I can even have her and Binx outside playing ball together - not interacting, but sharing turns with the ball (if I am present) and I have walked them at the same time on the same side - no issues. I tested her once though and went inside and peeked out the door. As soon as Binx walked off the porch, she vaulted towards him from the grass with a snarl! What a B, huh? I swung open the door with a "what are you thinking" "what was that crap?" She flipped over on her back before I could even get to her like "nothing mom, that wasn't me - i don't know what happened!"

Knock on wood - I have not seen her do any serious damage to another dog. I really think she is mostly noise and posturing, but I have seen her tangle with a couple of dogs when she was still in the rescue kennel and I had to use an aluminum garbage can lid and a training wand to break them up. No one had any punctures, but it scared the crap out of me!

 

I brought her upstairs last month. I thought maybe I could keep her in a crate and she could be upstairs with the family - the crate would keep the others safe from her. Well, every time a dog walked within 2 feet of her crate she would do the posture-snarly dance. It was a nightmare of sounds and stress. I had a foster at the time that she could not even stand to look at. He was only 10 months old - but she hated him. His crate was in the opposite corner of the room and she would bark and growl at him even when he was in his crate.

 

Sigh...

 

That just really got old and I moved her back downstairs, but I don't know if I'm doing the right thing by allowing her to remain in that comfort zone down there. I have 4 to 7 dogs at any given time, and that just seems to just be overwhelming for her. I also have small dogs and will not risk their safety with her unpredictable behavior.

 

But maybe I should try her upstairs again? Spray her with a squirt bottle for her crate reactivity?? Would you try? Or should I just continue as we are until we find her an appropriate home? She never attention barks and seems quite content in her own quarters. What do you make of that? The only dogs that I know like that are working dogs.

 

Behavior with people:

 

She seems to be happy to greet new people, but I get a little nervous sometimes because I have seen her get this "look" before. The glazed over the eyes look like she is changing personalities - sounds crazy, but that is what it looks like.

 

She has given me the lip curl twice (once I was grooming her and pulled her hair, once was through the crate/barrier) and she has snapped at me once (Tried to grab her collar when she was in my truck crate and she did not want to get out) since I've had her.

 

I really don't THINK she would bite me, but she does like to push buttons and see what she can get away with. But as tough as she acts, she also submits very easily if you yell at her - almost as if she is waiting for a blow (which is a shame). As soon as you "step it up" and let her know you aren't putting up with her crap, she stops. Same with other dogs usually...if I can head it off before she reacts, I can get her in a down on leash and keep the other dog out of her face.

 

She does not go after other dogs at all if they are not approaching or touching her. She could be out in the yard with a whole pack of dogs, and as long as none of them get too close to her, she'd be fine. But you never know which one she's going to go off on if they try to greet her.

 

Ok, this turned into a novel. I'm Sorry - maybe this is why I should post for opinions on behavior?!!

 

Any educated guesses of what her deal is would be welcomed...she's a piece of work that girl, but I do love her!

 

[Root Beer]

Would you try?

 

As you said, it's tough to get the whole picture without seeing the dog, but based on what you describe, I would do the entire Control Unleashed program from start to finish with her.

 

The nice thing is that - although it's a hassle - you have a management system that's working for the time being. I would continue with that setup and spend time every day doing the CU exercises.

 

Once I got up to the "There's a Dog in Your Face" game, I would really focus on that (but I would expect to take at least a month to even get to that point) and have a fence between her and me and the other dog/handler team.

 

If you aren't familiar with Control Unleashed, you might want to check it out. You could order the book or go to the website: www.controlunleashed.net

 

I highly recommend joining the yahoo group. One is supposed to read the book before posting, but the archives are full of great info and advice for specific situations.

 

If I didn't see results after doing the entire program, I would contact a vet behaviorist (one who does not employ adversives in behavior modification) and go from there.

[Tranquilis]

Additional information on Cammie:

 

I also know her, though only at the Farm. She's *always* been excited to see me, though if another dog is within trigger range, she'll prefer to snarl, bark, and posture. She's never been particularly affectionate with me, but she generally has sucked up to me, short of affection. She'll listen to me to "knock it off" even when in mid-posture with another dog. At that point she'll still show front teeth, but will abide without action or noise. You can tell she still *wants* to make a ruckus - Her jaws are tremmoring, but she'll knock it off on command for me.

 

Closely supervised, she played ball very nicely with my inexperienced ten-year old daughter, willing to take commands from her, in exchange for the ball-throwing. She wasn't affectionate, but she wan't inappropriate, either - She basically only wanted the ball flung, never mind who threw it.

 

This dog is *super* smart.

[Angie H]

Thank you Kristine - and God Bless You for reading that huge drawn out post! I didn't mean for it to get so long...

 

I have several books on fear aggression and resource guarding, but I do not have the Control Unleashed yet. I have seen several references on this board that praise it to the highest, so maybe I will give it a read.

 

My setup downstairs is very helpful when I need to rehab or work with dogs like Cammie...I do a lot of fostering, and while my husband is not the dog person that I am, he is very supportive and built/set that up for me. I just want to make sure I'm not taking the easy way out if there is something I should be doing to help her further. She is not severe...if her handler has a strong enough personality, she will respond and respect their leadership. She's just always pushing the limits.

 

 

Laird: Yes, you have seen some of her behavior while still in our kennels at the farm, and I was there the day we had your daughter playing fetch with her - I had high hopes that she would be trustworthy with kids at that point.

 

However, she has now been with me since March and I have been taking her out for socialization and working with her more closely. She has exhibited some new behaviors and I actually trust her LESS than I did when she was in the kennels. There is no way I would put her in a home with kids after living with her - kids like to hug and get in faces - and that could be disastrous with Cam. I never saw a lip curl or heard a growl emitted from her (towards a person that is) when I took care of her in the kennel...so this is something that surfaced once she "relaxed" so to speak. The old saying "the honeymoon is over" comes through with every foster I've ever had! After about 2 weeks and sometimes a month - you see their true colors! LOL!

[Tranquilis]

I'm not terribly surprised at the new behaviors. Dismayed, yes, but not surprised. Remember that with my daughter, we both were supervising, and she was the only dog out in the play area at the time - Hardly a "real world" scenario, I fear.

 

I wonder what giving her some job, other than 'ball,' would do to her outlook - I wonder if some of the behavior isn't pure frustration? Mind you, I can't see any way to get her a job until other factors are handled first, so I suppose the question is moot.

[Root Beer]

Mind you, I can't see any way to get her a job until other factors are handled first, so I suppose the question is moot.

 

That's where CU can help. If the dog is going over threshold just being near fences with dogs, around certain dogs, and around certain people, it's not going to be possible to distract her with a job.

[Dixie_Girl]

I don't know if you remember me posting about my foster, Holly? She was thisclose to getting put down. She too, had a problem with me grabbing her collar to make her "do" something, i.e., get off my bed. She first stalked, stared at Missy (a foster who was the lowest on the pack order), till she got adopted. Then she turned her attention to Lucy. But Lucy was an old hand at insulent dogs, and she was an alpha bitch, so it was quite tense a few times. But soon after, about 2 weeks, Lucy was adopted. So, Holly turned her attention to Cheyenne. But Cheyenne is clueless to dog language. She was an only dog since 10 days old till she was 8. So, she just tries to stay as far from the other dogs as possible. Holly finally got to the point that one day when I was trying to get her to the vet, she slipped her collar, when I finally got close enough to grab her, not mean like in any way, she turned on me and viciously tore my wrist up. That's when I came to the board with the news she needed to be PTS. But several people suggested we spay her first, then there was a suggestion to have her thyroid checked. We did both. She was spayed and put on thyroid meds. She is a changed dog, but not alot! She still bugs the crap out of Cheyenne, stalking and staring. She nips at Jackson (the most non-reactive dog I've ever known!) and at Skip. Skip, however retaliates with bared teeth and lunging, never connecting, and she lays off him for a while. She is a doll with all people, as long as there is no grabbing of her. She still grabs me at different times, but with no preasure from her teeth. She can learn stuff, but she is "off". The dog just ain't right. And I don't think she will ever be. I don't have her listed, because I would never be able to say with confidense, she's adoptable. She will probly live out the rest of her life with us. Unless the other dogs ever get together and plan her early demise!

 

Long story short, test her thyroid. Even my vet didn't think she was low thyroid, but she was. It stopped the viciousness of her, but that's at least something. Best of luck to her and you! You are wonderful to keep trying with a trying dog!

[Angie H]

If the dog is going over threshold just being near fences with dogs, around certain dogs, and around certain people, it's not going to be possible to distract her with a job.

Well, that is not entirely true...as long as my post was, one would think I would have explained things better

 

Actually, when Cammie is focused on a job (unfortunately ball is her only job right now), that's really all there is in her world. If it goes over the fence, she will intensely stare at it in a crouch until someone throws it back over - I have a hard time getting any eye contact from her before I throw it. I really think that if she were my dog (but she's not), I could get her to the point that we could do some agility together. It's just you and the dog when you're on the course, right? And she is leashed until the start line stay? I can manage her, but it's just not a situation where you can ever not be very aware of where other dogs are that are in our proximity and it's hard to manage someone else's dog. The other problem is that the average adopter is not typically prepared for managing this type of behavior, nor do they WANT to! It's one thing if your dog develops these issues, but quite another to adopt a dog that already has them :-(

 

If we are out and about, she only goes over threshold if the other dog is actually sniffing/greeting her - and only some dogs - if there is a dog walking down the street? No problem. Walking past our fence with their owner, not looking at us? No problem. In her yard but a few feet away? No problem. She does go over threshold when she is crated and another dog gets close or even looks at her - maybe that is because she is "trapped"? or because she is guarding her crate? Who knows...this could probably be desensitized eventually, but it was a faster fix for me to just separate her from my pack so that she isn't practicing the behavior for now.

 

Your suggestion of CU exercises - if it's all that everyone says it is - may be the solution to get her to the point that she could tolerate ALL dogs greeting her without freaking out. She can already do that with SOME dogs, but others do set her off - if they sniff too long in the wrong place, if they are young dogs, etc.

[Angie H]

I don't know if you remember me posting about my foster, Holly? She was this close to getting put down.

 

Long story short, test her thyroid. Even my vet didn't think she was low thyroid, but she was. It stopped the viciousness of her, but that's at least something. Best of luck to her and you! You are wonderful to keep trying with a trying dog!

Oh I think I do remember reading that thread...Is she still with you or was she a foster dog that was adopted?

 

Ya know, the thyroid thing did cross my mind. Maybe I will suggest it to our director and see if she wants to proceed. Cammie is not BAD with people - she gets very wiggly and jumps up to greet people. She actually hasn't PROVEN that she would ever actually bite a person OR a dog.

 

But still, she is very reactive with many dogs, she has snapped at me once, and she can get that "I'm insane and might freak out any moment" look on her face when she is being petted sometimes.

[SoloRiver]

Gosh, she sounds an awful lot like Solo, and for that matter looks exactly like Solo's sire, who in turn looks exactly like Solo other than color and markings. (You wouldn't by any chance have papers on her, would you? Solo is from central PA.) Solo too ignores other dogs unless they initiate a direct interaction, and then he reacts poorly. He too guards crates (and other enclosed spaces, like cars) with vehemence if dogs or humans approach very closely. Yet he ignores the snarled threats from the Goldens next door, who like to hurl insults at my dogs from the other side of the privacy fence (Jett, puzzled, gets down on her belly and makes appeasement gestures, not understanding that the mean dogs next door can't see her), and never barks at people or dogs who pass the yard.

 

As far as dog issues go, these two are on the bottom of my priority list as far as problems needing to be addressed. I don't see an issue unless an adopter wants to have a dog park dog. Even if you choose to do dog sports with such dogs, and I have with Solo, all that is necessary is that you find a class and instructor who does not allow the dogs to mingle during class. Even when the worst case scenario occured and another dog ran out onto the course and pounced on Solo during class (this happened to us several times -- it's bound to happen sooner or later) all he did was look really scary and get slobber on the other dog but no one was hurt. It sounds like Cammie is similarly mostly bluster and no bite.

 

Just find an adopter who doesn't care that she isn't a social butterfly with other dogs (I do not personally expect my dogs to socialize with dogs they don't know, so if she got along with the pack a home like mine would be fine -- I am NOT offering to adopt her by the way although if by some chance she turned out to be Solo's long-lost sister I would definitely be tempted). I am guessing that if she settled in and got to know the dogs in her home environment really well she would stop guarding the crate from them. Solo does NOT NOT NOT like dogs he does not know outside of a crate that he's in, but if one of the girls is hanging out nearby and he's in a crate at home he doesn't care at all.

 

I worry more about the crazy look you describe, because I can see it in my head (am I familiar with it -- oh yes). Sorta glazed? Mesmerized and hyper alert at the same time? Pupils dilated? (She has yellow eyes like Solo too.) Strangers will tend to misinterpret this look as social interest when (in Solo's case anyway) it really means "I think you might be dangerous, so I'm watching you very closely and anxiously to determine if you really are dangerous." Do NOT push her if she gets this expression, freeze and do nothing. You want her to learn that people are actually not dangerous, not prove that they are dangerous by allowing them to handle her when she does not feel ready. (I do not think you are doing this, by the way. You seem very cautious.)

 

She sounds much better with people than Solo was when I got him. If you have doubts about her interactions with strangers I would try some slow desensitization exercises like the ones in Cautious Canine and encourage interactions in contexts where she is comfortable (like ball games). It would probably also be a good idea to have either a behaviorist or a trainer who is very experienced with anxious dogs take a look at her. If she's like Solo (and she sounds much milder), my guess is that the anxieties she has are mostly genetic (temperament, not environment), while her poor social skills with other dogs are a lack of socialization. But who knows.

 

ETA: I attached a photo of Solo's dad just for kicks. I didn't take this photo; someone who owns Solo's long-lost brother (from a different litter) sent me photos of Solo's parents and the place Solo came from. Suffice it to say that seeing the photos of where Solo came from explained a lot.

[Angie H]

Gosh, she sounds an awful lot like Solo, and for that matter looks exactly like Solo's sire, who in turn looks exactly like Solo other than color and markings.

 

I attached a photo of Solo's dad just for kicks. I didn't take this photo; someone who owns Solo's long-lost brother (from a different litter) sent me photos of Solo's parents and the place Solo came from. Suffice it to say that seeing the photos of where Solo came from explained a lot.

 

OMG! They look A LOT alike

 

I don't remember what state she was picked up in...I don't THINK it was PA, but I will look again next time I'm at headquarters. We do not have papers on her though - she was found as a stray.

 

I agree with you on the dog issues...I am looking for an only dog household for her, but it sure would be nice (maybe for my own selfish reasons) if we could make some progress with other dogs. And I'm really happy to hear that you have actually been able to achieve with Solo (what a great name btw) what I'm hoping Cammie can someday do if her new owner is into it. I think it would be fabulous for her confidence and she really does need to occupy that brain - she is just so sharp. In one day I had shaped a "bang-bang" cue where she drops immediately and rolls over on her back until I say OKAY! It's really cute and she loves showing off.

 

So you have Solo in a multidog household and he's ok even unsupervised with his pack? That's awesome, but I can't ever see that with this girl...but that's ok if she is in the right hands.

 

As far as what I do with her when she is around other people...BEFORE I had ever seen this LOOK of hers, I had taken her to a local pet store for social time (as I only knew her to have dog issues, no people issues had been documented at all) She walked up to a woman excitedly (the whole back end wiggling) and I had to step on the leash to keep her from jumping up. The woman instictively stooped down to pet her and Cammie flopped over on her side as if she was lovin the rubbin. Then came "the look" - the wide eyed glaze, the body is completely still and she is like peering around. At this point, my chest is heavy and there is a huge lump in my throat as I am anticipating that she is going to go off on this poor unsuspecting person. I broke the moment with a happy and high "Good Girl!! OK, Let's Go Cammie-Cam!" I was walking in the other direction before she was all the way to her feet and she just followed along, tail a wagging. She got that glare a couple of other times in her crate as a human was saying hello. Same thing - she starts out wagging and flopping over as if she's a submissive and sappy dog that wants to be touched...then like a switch she is posturing and snarling and shaking the crate!! It's insane to see. So...now I avoid any touching when we are out - I just tell people she is in training and cannot socialize today. When visitors come over and she happens to be out, if she runs to them and initiates contact, I don't intervene, but if she lies down, I tell them to walk away from her. Usually I have any new guests play ball with her rather than try to pet her - it's safer ;-)

[Tranquilis]

I find the "assume submissive posture, get crazy eyes" thing to be rather confusing. It's almost like she's got two sets of instincts working there - The one that wants to get some love, and the one that finds being in submissive posture to be threatening.

 

In my experience with her, she's gotten the 'crazy eye' look when she was in a conflicted situation - For example, when she had another dog within trigger range, but she was trying to behave because I'd told her to knock it off. So, between her desire to follow command, and her desire to start up a ruckus with the other dog, she was kinda stuck, and that's when her eyes would get all weird on me.

[SoloRiver]

I think Cammie is beautiful. She looks pretty big and like she has a lot of bone, as well as a sort of thick poofy coat and super fuzzy tail -- all similarities to Solo, who is over 50 pounds and about 23 inches at the shoulder and really really hairy. Ah, they're probably not related at all, but I know Solo's breeder just kept putting his parents together and selling the litters so Solo probably has (or had) plenty of sibs out there. Solo also may have been used as a stud before I got him so it's possible he's got sons and daughters out there too. His sons and daughters would all have to be at least seven or eight years old, as I adopted him at 16 months and snipped him a couple of months later.

 

I digress. Solo's anxieties are almost all social (except for the noise phobia) but when he becomes comfortable around given people or dogs -- when they become a known quantity to him, predictable, and safe, he is fine around them. Except for the types of altercations that any pack of dogs can get into, like scuffles over treats, he is unremarkable around the two other dogs he lives with, both female, one a spayed bitch his age (nine) and the other a nine-month-old pup. That said, the older female was selected because I knew she would get along with Solo, and the pup's grown up with him. I do not think he would get along with just any other dog, even if he got to know that dog very well, and I do not have other males because I don't think they'd mix well (I also do not have room in my heart for another male as Solo is my once in a lifetime dog). If she is like Solo, Cammie may be OK in the right multidog home, as long as the other dogs learn not to set off her triggers and speak dog very well and clearly, and probably as long as there aren't too many other dogs. I think I MIGHT get away with adding one more dog (although the fiance would probably have something to say about that) but more than that and I suspect it would just be too much for Solo.

 

Showing belly is something that dogs naturally do when they are feeling unsure, so it does not surprise me that she feels vulnerable in this position. As Solo's behaviorist explained to me, a lot of anxious dogs will solicit social interaction because it is the nature of dogs to provoke to get more information. Anxious dogs are often bad at reading contexts and need to DO something to figure out if a given situation is safe or dangerous. Unfortunately, they then are often also bad at reading the information that they get, which is why such dogs will often approach a person as if they want a pat and then snap. They get in over their heads, like a little kid might who thinks it will be cool to star in the school play but then has stage fright when he actually gets out there and sees all the people in the audience.

 

Solo is most comfortable around people who are predictable to him, so when he meets new people I only let them interact if the people are very good at taking directions from me. It is best if they pretend that Solo is not even there, even if he walks right up to them and touches them with his nose. Once he gets used to their presence (and this may take several introductions) then they can start interacting with him but at his pace. The people he likes least are the ones who think all dogs love them and insist on getting right into his face to say hi.

 

Anyway, Cammie sounds like she's doing much better than Solo was at the same stage, so she'll probably be OK. She looks devilishly intelligent. Solo is freakishly smart -- I call him the "Canine John Nash" and has (as Becca here calls them) "talking eyes." That would be something else they have in common.

 

I taught him the "bang" trick in a not very clickerish way: I was wondering if it would work if I just said "bang" and then shoved him over while we were lying on the floor watching TV. So I said "bang" and pushed him over, and he sat up, and I said "bang" and pushed him over, and he sat up, and I said "bang" and he flopped right over, and he's known the "bang" trick ever since then. He later added his own flourish in that if you keep pointing the gun finger and saying "bang bang bang" he will wriggle around like a flopping fish and then lie still when you are done.

[Tranquilis]

Showing belly is something that dogs naturally do when they are feeling unsure, so it does not surprise me that she feels vulnerable in this position. As Solo's behaviorist explained to me, a lot of anxious dogs will solicit social interaction because it is the nature of dogs to provoke to get more information. Anxious dogs are often bad at reading contexts and need to DO something to figure out if a given situation is safe or dangerous. Unfortunately, they then are often also bad at reading the information that they get, which is why such dogs will often approach a person as if they want a pat and then snap. They get in over their heads, like a little kid might who thinks it will be cool to star in the school play but then has stage fright when he actually gets out there and sees all the people in the audience.

Bingo!

That 'clicks.' If I had to guess, I'd say you've nailed it, or very nearly, based upon what I know of her. Mind you, Angie knows her far, far better than I do.

 

She is a lovely beastie, and she looks even better, now that Angie's been fostering her. And yeah, 'bloody well brilliant" is about the best way to describe her.