Sam'smom Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 So... today Sam is being a bit of a turd.... I know he's JUST a puppy and is still learning, but today he's just been nothing but bad, into every piece of mischief he can find and well grumbly... He had a very busy day yesterday visitng friends who live along a river, he was swimming and played an endless game of fetch... He's maybe just tired?? Up until today he's really been a good puppy.. easy actually learning hand verbal commands, more or less house trained but today he's pooped and peed in the house just after coming is from the yard he's shredded the newspaper, chased the cats, shredded 3 rolls of Toilet paper, chased the cats, shredded one of his toys, and and did I mention consantly pestering the cats...? ARRRRGHHH! I tried to play with him... playing with a lasar light which he usually loves... but he deemed that beneath him today.... we then we tried a training session but he was not remotely interested in that.... then we were going to go for a walk but the heavens have opened and it's a total down pour.... I have no problems walking in the rain but it's also thundering an Sam is a bit scared of it... so then we played tug o war... he got a bit too aggressive so that got put away... then he tried chasing the cats again...So I tossed him out in the back yard for a bit since the rain has stopped and the storm has passed along... ( it's a nice big fenced in yard.. so safe and lots of room to run around... ) think he just needs a puppy version time out ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 He needs better supervision and calm training. He needs safe confinement where he can rest (crate or xpen - the portable pens you can move around the house) and will respond better to training when he doesn't spend the rest of his time pleasing himself. He needs rest - yes likely he is overtired, and spent all of yesterday doing what he wanted to top it off. Now you've got an overtired, overstimulated baby on your hands. Throw the lazer pointer out before you make him crazy - lucky for you he's got some sense. Do a search on the bad effects of those things on these Boards. Most of us wish they were never invented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Crate that puppy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam'smom Posted July 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Well as I said he's normally a very good and an easy pup, and I am really not trying to be or sound defensive as you bring up some very good points... Today I think he's just testing limits, he is very well supervised, someone is home with him 99% of the time and if he's going to be left on his own he is put in his crate.... as he is crate trained. I don't think keeping him in his crate or a pen when I am home with him is fair to him and he's definately not allowed to to everything he pleases. Today he just seems to of managed to find any and all trouble he can find the second my back is turned. He is also usually very responsive to training sessions but today just distracted.. so your are right he's probably overtired and was over stimulated yesterday as the new stuff he got to do was much more fun and exciting. Today he's just home and maybe kinda bored... as it's rainy and stormy out he's not enjoying being outside all that much. he's also teething so am guessing that's part of why he wants to chew new stuff.. Will toss the lasar light.... A quiet day at home is probably the best thing for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I think you missing the point, yes he's testing you, and he is winning. You want to do a training session, he does not want to, you let him be, he wins. Supervision in my book is not just keeping and eye on him, but also instilling a good work ethic. Yesterday he played and did what he wanted, today he wants to do what he wants to and does not see why he should change, you have to give him reason or crate him up so he can't test his bounds. JMO, for what's worth. BTW, yesterday when we were at a trial I watched as one of the local trainers students tried to get her puppy to come out of it's crate, she called it, it stayed to the back. The student shrugged her shoulders and said "You missed your chance", the trainer stopped her student and asker her "what did you just teach your puppy?" The answer, that she does not have to come. The trainer reached in, pulled the pup to the front told it here and made sure that the pup came. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I don't think keeping him in his crate or a pen when I am home with him is fair to him and he's definately not allowed to to everything he pleases. Just know that when you are getting frustrated with him, you don't HAVE to keep running around doing damage control. My 10 month old foster (who is still very much a baby due to lack of training and socialization earlier in her life) gets crate time-outs occasionally even when I am around to watch her. She is for some reason incapable of settling down on her own, so I use the crate to give her (and me) a break from time to time. Your pup won't mind. Put him in his crate with something to chew on for a little while--better to have him practicing being relaxed and calm than practicing bad habits that you don't want him to continue. I'm not saying keep him crated all day long, but give him an hour in the crate to unwind a bit and then let him try being a good puppy again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 How old is he? I have to disagree about putting him in the crate while you're home is not fair to him. Was it fair to you for him to chew the toilet paper, poop on the floor and pester the cats? Puppies *need* time outs! If you continue to give in to his every "Hey, human! Entertain me!", you're only creating a puppy who will grow up into a demanding dog that can't settle down. Help teach him that quiet time is good and necessary. You're not throwing him in there as punishment (although I don't have a problem with that, either!), only giving him and you a much needed break. Give him a stuffed Kong or bone to chew on, he'll be fine! He simply sounds like a typical border collie pup who is over-stimulated and needs some down time. Oh, and there's usually no sense in even trying a training session when he's wound up like that...will only frustrate you both. Glad to hear you're ditching the laser pointer, as well. You dodged a bullet there. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewie'sMom Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 All of the above. He may be over tired, testing his (your) limits or just being a BC pup. When he gets too rambunctious, crate him for a 10 or 20 minutes, then see if he'll settle down and give you his attention. Trust me, the first two weeks I had Lewie I really wondered if I'd bitten off more than I could chew. And I'm an old (literally ) hat at puppies. Keep your cool and remember the 3 Ps: patience, persistence and practice. It will come. Promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam'smom Posted July 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 How old is he? I have to disagree about putting him in the crate while you're home is not fair to him. Was it fair to you for him to chew the toilet paper, poop on the floor and pester the cats? Puppies *need* time outs! If you continue to give in to his every "Hey, human! Entertain me!", you're only creating a puppy who will grow up into a demanding dog that can't settle down. Help teach him that quiet time is good and necessary. You're not throwing him in there as punishment (although I don't have a problem with that, either!), only giving him and you a much needed break. Give him a stuffed Kong or bone to chew on, he'll be fine! He simply sounds like a typical border collie pup who is over-stimulated and needs some down time. Oh, and there's usually no sense in even trying a training session when he's wound up like that...will only frustrate you both. Glad to hear you're ditching the laser pointer, as well. You dodged a bullet there. Good luck! Sam is 16 weeks old so basically a still baby. Really, today is the first time I have seen him acting so bad and unwilling to listen or learn.... I guess I feel guilty crating him when I'm home but you do make a very valid point about it all being who is fair to who... sigh. I am trying to be a good, fair but diligent owner he is normally so well behaved and good about everything really up until today he's been the easiest pup I've ever had :-) As for yesterday... he wasn't allowed to misbehave and didn't.. he wasn't allowed to do everything he wanted to, he just was introduced to new stuff which happened to be fun for us both... I thought it'd be good for him, now I feel like I did a bad thing :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I have to disagree that you are supervising him. Supervision means he would not be getting into any of the things you describe because you would be watching and able to intervene before he even *thought* about getting into trouble. Being called a "turd" isn't exactly an affectionate thing. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to call him "good" instead? Not crating when you are home because its not fair? That's like saying it's not fair to use baby gates, playpens, and cribs with your human toddler because it's "not fair". Let me quote good parents to you "Life is not Fair. Get over it". Being a human or dog parent means doing what is best for the pup, not just what is easiest or feels the cutest. So just like we protect human toddlers by confining them to safe and appropriate spaces, we must do the same with puppies. For a doggie baby that means a crate or a small, *totally* dog proof space. It doesn't mean you don't provide him with entertainment, exercise, or training, or that he never gets out of the crate again. It means that you *control his access to anything he should not be learning or doing" at all times. Either by full, "2 eyes on you" supervision and a committed mind, OR by confinement and management. A habit prevented is worth 10 behaviorists fixing one ingrained. Crate that puppy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 As for yesterday... he wasn't allowed to misbehave and didn't.. he wasn't allowed to do everything he wanted to, he just was introduced to new stuff which happened to be fun for us both... I thought it'd be good for him, now I feel like I did a bad thing :-( You didn't do a bad thing, but yesterday was fun, fun, fun and constant entertainment, and likely he wants today to be the same, even though today it's back to the normal routine. Even if he is fantastic puppy 99% of the time, he's bound to be naughty now and then, and as he becomes an adolescent you will probably find him testing you more often. Don't let him get away with bad behavior just because he's a baby (I know you don't "let" him do these things, but putting him a situation where he can and will repeatedly, like chasing the cats, is just as good as letting) and please don't feel guilty about crating him. Think of it as "for his own good" like you would discipline a child. You will have a better dog for it. Don't let these comments get you down--it sounds like you're doing a great job with him--we all just want you to know that you don't have to put up with the craziness--you CAN take a break from your pup! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Don't feel bad. We all had to start out somewhere...I learned my lesson with Lilly, who was a very bad puppy. No, wait. It was me...I was a very permissive owner. Well, yeah, she was a bad puppy, too. Good thing she was cute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I will chime in on using the crate more for your puppy. I can't even imagine raising a puppy any more without one. I love knowing that my puppy is not practicing bad behaviors, destroying my possessions or eating something that could kill him. With any puppy, but especially a BC puppy, if I can't keep them in my line of vision (and I'm free enough to stop them before they get into mischief), they are crated. If they are into everything and not settling down, they are crated. Of course, there is also lots of time to play and explore and hang out with me, but puppies need lots of down time as well. All the effort and energy we put in during the first year or two with our puppies pays off with wonderful, calm companions around the house. I'd be careful about using the yard as your backup for expending energy. It wasn't clear if you were outside with him or put him outside to run around by himself. If the latter, lots of bad habits can form that way too. Dogs dig, bark, become escape artists, eat stuff that makes them sick or worse. That doesn't take in the human factor of people who might steal, tease, hurt or even kill a dog they find annoying. Even going outside with Quinn when he was a puppy didn't do me much good because he kept eating dirt and sticks and other things I didn't want him to. So outside was pottying and fetch and walks, usually. Otherwise we were inside. Everyone is trying to help you and Sam with what they are telling you, not make you feel bad. There is so much experience and knowledge here, what a great opportunity to start your puppy on the right road to a grown dog you will be crazy about. Supervision, management, exercise, training -- they will get you there. I can honestly say that of all my puppies, Quinn did the least damage around the house. Next to none, really. And that wasn't because he was a perfectly behaved puppy -- he was the Devil. I credit the minimal damage to him being so terrible that I didn't dare take my horrified eyes off him for the first several months I can laugh now, but it was a serious effort at the time. Hang in there. Finding the right routine and schedule for your pup and yourself takes a while. But really, please consider a crate for both your sakes. It is a temporary tool. The only time Quinn goes in a crate is to shed dirt or once in a while in the car. He'd go in them on his own but he will resource guard them from the other dogs, so I keep all crates closed. He thinks crates are great places to hang out though he now has to make do with the carpeted floor or furniture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I don't think you have any reason to feel bad, simply reasons to change so that you can continue to develop and enjoy your nice dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1sheepdoggal Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Sam'smom, I have two, yes, count them two twelve week old BC pups in my house. They are happily and quietly in their crates right now, where they have been for about 4 hours now. They at this age, are living a very structured and scedualed life. They have been taught from a very early age to stay in the same room with me always. So, when they are out, ( of their crate) I always know what they are up to and what they are doing. When they are out ,(of their crate) I interact with them some, but not so much that they dont learn to amuse themselves. I hand them apporeiate things to play with, and immediatly take away anything that is not for puppy mouths with a stren "ahht! Thats mine!" And again hand them what they can chew on/play with, This quickly teaches them what is theirs and what is mine. Pups burn up a lot of energy in a short amount of time, so they need to be crated perodically throughout the day to get the rest that they themselves are to young yet to realize they need. Like a baby, you need to put them down for a nap. (in their crate) All my dogs love their crates, and appreciate them. They have been shown/taught, that it is be a place of quiet refuge, it is their special place, it is also where they get fed. Its not a cage to be unfairly locked away in or a place to stick an over zealous rambunctious puppy. Because I dont put them in their crates for those reasons. Crateing has alot to do with your attitude and how/why you utilize it and how you feel about it, the pup will accept whatever boundries you set. Mine are just starting to learn that they can go on their own to their crates when they get tired, overwhelmed, in trouble, or just plain sick of dealing with each other. Some times they will take a bone in with them and just chew on it in there and then fall asleep in there all by theirselves. Yesterday, they both had a full day away from home, complete with sheep, and a walk through the woods, and alot of interaction with other dogs, as well as a visit from a sibling they hadnt seen for several weeks. It was a big long day for them, As soon as they got home, it was biz as usual. And back on track to the regular scedual. And, they are very happy and grateful for it. And, are learning and being shaped into what it is to grow up to be a dog I can live with for the next 14 to 15 yrs. Consistancy, strucuture, and a schedual are very important for a young dog, They learn to accept it, appreciate it, count on it and look forward to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClickMeBC Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 Until he was about 6 months old, my BC puppy spent a good deal of time in his crate each day. Every morning after being pottied, walked, sessioned, and thoroughly exercised both physically and mentally, it was into the crate for three hours or so. Back out, another walk, a play session, a short training session, and perhaps some time with mom - he was tethered to me. But then it was back into the crate for several more hours. This assured that he had no chance to develop bad habits(his only one to this day is constantly getting into his toy bin and digging out balls ), and it also has created for me an off-switch: Quynn is not a crazy, "Give me something to do now or I will run in circles and chew the sofa and drive you insane", kind of Border collie. When he's been worked, trained and played with and it's time to settle down, he does so. Because your dog is so young, I highly suggest a similar routine - though at this point I am simply repeating the advice of others. Don't allow him to make your life revolve around what kind of mood he's in, or how put out he is that he's not having as much fun as he did yesterday. He plays and works when it's time, and he settles down when it's not. Crate time IS fair, and please believe that it will make both your life and his a great deal easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 I don't think keeping him in his crate or a pen when I am home with him is fair to him and he's definately not allowed to to everything he pleases. Today he just seems to of managed to find any and all trouble he can find the second my back is turned. He is also usually very responsive to training sessions but today just distracted.. so your are right he's probably overtired and was over stimulated yesterday as the new stuff he got to do was much more fun and exciting. Two Decembers ago we adopted a 10 month old Border Collie who had been left to do exactly as he pleased from the time he was 5 weeks old until he was surrendered to rescue at 8 months old. So, even though he was 10 months old, I dealt with quite a few days like the one you describe! I did use the crate a lot to teach him how to settle down. I didn't just crate him and leave him alone all the time, but if he got highly stimulated and sort of "lost his head", he went into his crate for about 10 minutes. It wasn't punishment and I was very matter of fact about it. I never left him in his crate for long when I was home - unless I couldn't supervise him for some reason. He spent a good part his "free time" the first month with me in the house on a leash! He earned his freedom one minute at a time! The thing that I went for with Dean was balance. I didn't micromanage him every second. There were times he was allowed to do what he wanted (when what he wanted was appropriate, of course) like running with the other dogs in the yard, of course he learned right away how to play ball, he had time to play with toys in whatever ways he pleased. But there were also times when he was on leash sitting by me on the sofa, and times when we were doing training, and times when I was managing him in one way or another - sometimes by using the crate. I really looked to find a balance with him and in the end it paid off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShoresDog Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 I just rotated in my chair at the kitchen table to snap this picture: Tomorrow Juno will be 23 weeks old. On most days, she has two rest periods in crate, at least an hour long each, sometimes one will be two hours long. She enjoys being trained, lives to play, loves to explore, and she gets very, very wound up and out of focus as she exhausts her energy. Just before she is about to collapse into sleep is when she is most wound up and has the hardest time remembering her rules. It would be cruel to her not to schedule her for some naps, just as it would be cruel to a human baby to deprive her of the rest she needed. There may be puppies and babies who know when they should rest, but I would bet that most of them thrive on a regular routine that includes ample rest time. Note that Juno's crate is by no means an unpleasant place! It's a spacious 42 incher, it always has toys and chew things in it, and it often has bones or those awful bully sticks. It's in the kitchen, not isolated. She often goes in there on her own. It's covered with an old blanket much of the time to make it more den-like. Bottom line, she likes it! And I really do think it's good for her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 You've been given lots of great advice here. Can't emphasize enough that one of the most important things we can teach our Border Collie (or any) pups is to enjoy down time. Just as an extra suggestion, I've just bought and enjoyed watching Susan Garrett's new DVD Crate Games. I think you'd find some good stuff there to do with your little man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsnrs Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 We have had a crate for our Aussie from day one. She will be 4 yrs old in a couple of weeks and still sleeps in her crate by my bed. She comes to get me about 8 or 9 pm. You will be glad you crate trained when your pup is older too. Also enroll in puppy obedience classes. JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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