Training dogs...

[theherbalkitty]

Hi, All,

I only recently joined this forum. I am hoping to move to Maine within the year with the intent of purchasing land and raising Olde English Babydoll Southdown sheep and all manner of fiber goats: Pygora, Pycazz, Angora, Cashmere (I am learning to spin fiber; I already have angora rabbits and am hoping to expand my menagerie of fiber producers!) I am also an herbalist and may add some dairy goats to the mix in the not-so-distant future for the milk to make salves and lotions. I am also hoping to get border collies to help with the herding. However, I haven't got a clue how to train them and am wondering if anyone knows of someone in Maine or even New Hampshire who might be willing to tutor me?

Also, there's been a lot of mention of guard dogs on this forum. In Maine there is the same threat of vultures during lambing/kidding, etc., but also the year-round threat of fisher cats. I had thought of using my two St. Bernards as guard dogs but they have not been properly trained for such duty and are older animals...what's that old expression? "You can't teach an old dog new tricks" Or is there any sort of formal training involved? (I'm assuming there must be) I tend to have a special place in my heart for the gentle giants. If not these two Saints, then another or perhaps a Newfoundland or two. I guess my question here would be if anyone could also recommend someone in regard to learning how to train guard dogs? My Saints and I did take a basic training course (just your general obedience lessons) two years ago when I first rescued them from a shelter and I found I really loved working and teaching the dogs. I know this is lengthy but any info anyone may have is appreciated.

 

Thank you,

The Herbal Kitty

[Sue R]

Welcome!

 

Try the Northeast Border Collie Association (NEBCA) website to locate breeders/trainers in your area. Also, if you can attend any USBCHA sheepdog trials (www.usbcha.com) in your area, that would be an opportunity to meet some folks and see a bit of what the work is all about. You are very smart to want to get some training because, although a well-bred dog comes with instincts, it is up to the handler/trainer to shape and mold the instincts so that the dog is truly useful on the farm.

 

As for LGDs (and I don't have any and have no experience), I think it is considered essential that the young dog/pup is raised with the stock it will grow up to protect - they need to bond with the stock and be "part of the flock" and not bond with the household as a pet, as they spend their time out with the stock continuously.

 

I have never heard of St. Bernards or Newfoundlands being used as LGDs (although I could be ignorant). Lots of breeds are still bred right for guard work. While the Great Pyrenees has been bred as a show dog (and you would want to avoid any show lines for any sort of livestock working dog), most other breeds have come lately (or not at all) to the kennel club and show ring, and are therefore generally better bred to do the work. These include Maremma, Anatolian, Akbash, and other breeds.

 

There are many folks on this forum who have LGDs and can give you good advice. You might also want to join the Edgefield (edited to correct - thanks, Darci) Sheep Production Forum (I don't have the address off the top of my head - it's an excellent resource).

 

Best wishes!

[1sheepdoggal]

http://edgefieldsheep.com/bb/

 

Welcome, Theres a good amount of info about LGD"s there too. Enjoy

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with Sue--I'd think you'd want to find a traditional LGD breed. I don't think St. Bernards or Newfies were ever used that way, and I've not heard of anyone using them that way now, at least not on the one working LGD list I'm on.

 

Here's a Maine contact from the NEBCA website:

Lynn Deschambeault

Merlynn Kennels

342 Hio Ridge Road

Denmark, ME 04022

(207) 452-2898

merlynn@fairpoint.net

 

I think Sally Lacy is in New Hampshire. There's also a list of contacts on the main NEBCA site. You could probably contact one of those folks to point you in the direction of someone near you.

 

J.

[Bill Fosher]

I'll second the notion that you're better off getting a guard dog that's purpose-bred. Training guard dogs is a job best left to the sheep, with minimal assistance from the shepherd. A guard dog puppy should be born around sheep, raised in contact with sheep and only enough human contact to manageable, in my opinion. What you want is a dog that is bonded to the sheep, not to you or to the place. A guard dog that's sleeping on your porch is not doing the sheep any good, unless the sheep are also on your porch. The only thing you should be doing with a young guard dog is observing it and correcting if it plays with lambs or sheep, which can be a real problem with puppies and adolescents.

 

What part of Maine are you considering settling in? I'm in New Hampshire, but at the farthest possible point from anywhere in Maine -- I think we're about 3 hours from Kittery.

[tripsis]

Saint Bernards are not guard dogs. I'm not sure how they would do with extensive training, but Saint Bernards are definitely not bred to be any type of guard dog. A great guard dog needs to have the proper drive and instinct.. extensive training alone will not do the trick. So if you want a good, reliable guard dog, find one that is bred specifically for that purpose. I have heard great things about Great Pyrenees dogs, but you would want to find a breeder who has preserved their guarding qualities rather than bread them for looks/showing purposes.

[theherbalkitty]

Hi, Bill Fosher,

I am relocating to the town of St. Albans, ME.

 

Hi, Julie Poudrier,

I am very surprised. Newfies, especially, have a very long history with sheep, as do Saints but, perhaps, they were bred and used more in the same capacity as the Borders? Being used for the herding rather than guarding. And, being used more in current times as show dogs, it may well be that it's been bred completely (or almost) out of them. But I see everyone's point regarding my current Saints; they've been pets for too long to be really good for guard duty. =) I assumed as much but thought it worth asking anyway. =)

 

Thank you, Everyone, who has responded. I really appreciate the names, addresses and/or websites provided. I'm sure I'll find someone who will help me learn how to train the border collies. They are beautiful animals. Thanks, again!

 

 

 

The Herbal Kitty

[ClickMeBC]

I personally can't help much, but I'm in Maine with my BC and dairy goats and must say: Do contact Lynn Deschambeault, as she will be the one to help, if anyone. My BC came from Lynn as a pup and she's been amazingly supportive and always willing to help us out with the herding.

[Sue R]

Newfies, especially, have a very long history with sheep, as do Saints but, perhaps, they were bred and used more in the same capacity as the Borders? Being used for the herding rather than guarding.

Would you mind elaborating on where you learned that Newfoundlands and Saint Bernards "have a very long history with sheep...(and)...maybe being used for the herding"? I sincerely think there has never been a "history" of either of these breeds being any sort of "herding" dog but any kind of dog can function to some extent as a "guard dog" if barking and alerting the owners to the presence of a predator is the definition of guard dog.

 

A livestock guardian dog is a particular sort of animal - it grows up with, bonds with, and lives with its stock and protects it from virtually any kind of predator, land animal or bird. Breeds of LGDs have been developed over many centuries, associated with shepherding in multiple countries. They are not your "everyday" dog.

 

In my opinion (for what it's worth), the dogs we are talking about on these boards are Border Collies, not Borders (those happen be man-made contrivances between countries). If anything, an abbreviation for these dogs would be "collies" which means a working dog in the UK. The usurping of that term for the dog that has become the Rough Collie of the kennel club is unfortunate, as it is/was a word of definite meaning.

[theherbalkitty]

Would you mind elaborating on where you learned that Newfoundlands and Saint Bernards "have a very long history with sheep...(and)...maybe being used for the herding"? I sincerely think there has never been a "history" of either of these breeds being any sort of "herding" dog but any kind of dog can function to some extent as a "guard dog" if barking and alerting the owners to the presence of a predator is the definition of guard dog.

 

A livestock guardian dog is a particular sort of animal - it grows up with, bonds with, and lives with its stock and protects it from virtually any kind of predator, land animal or bird. Breeds of LGDs have been developed over many centuries, associated with shepherding in multiple countries. They are not your "everyday" dog.

 

In my opinion (for what it's worth), the dogs we are talking about on these boards are Border Collies, not Borders (those happen be man-made contrivances between countries). If anything, an abbreviation for these dogs would be "collies" which means a working dog in the UK. The usurping of that term for the dog that has become the Rough Collie of the kennel club is unfortunate, as it is/was a word of definite meaning.

 

 

Hi, Sue,

 

Mostly from books that I've read on the breeds. It may be misinformation. I have a book at home on Newfoundlands but I can't remember the author's name off the top of my head. Right now everything is in boxes being stored until I move but, if I find the book, I'll post the name and author. Again, they could be wrong. I know both breeds have a much bigger reputation as rescue dogs. =)

 

Thank you,

The Herbal Kitty