Bo Peep Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Usher has been to the same trainer the same 1/2 hour the same every other week for a year. I guess I'm bored, too. Today, she told me that he is smarter than the BOTH of us. She "paraded" him around the park pretending like it was a show and the darn dog was waiting for her to say "halt". As soon as she said it, he sat. I used to take a step or two and then stop. But no..............not with Usher. He knows what's expected. He is simply bored. I tried treats, a ball, everything. Any suggestions on how I can get him up and happy about his obedience? Thanks in advance. Dianne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Train to a higher standard. Add in mega distractions ( a ball or frisbee being thrown, wheelbarrows trundling by, car horns blaring, etc), train cues/commands from a distance. Train some tricks, train a chain of behaviors - like you sneeze, he goes and gets a kleenex, then takes it back from you and puts it in the trash can. Train him to work only with hand signals. Train him to cue you when the phone rings, train him to pull open cabinet doors for you. Train him to do the laundry if you have a front loader. Train him to find your keys. If he is bored repeating the same old cues, give the classic obedience a break and do something fun or totally nuts. Teach him to find your straw hat. Teach him to track, (there are some good books at Dogwise.) Teach him to find people by name. Ruth n the BC3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted July 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 I was speaking in the terms of basic obedience. I'm sorry. Sometimes I am not clear in what I'm talking about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Diane, if he's performing the cues obedience cues correctly, then why drill? I guess I don't understand why he would continue to need lessons in obedience if he knows the cues. Given what you're describing, it sounds like wanting a high school student to study 6th grade vocabulary lists - is there something I'm not getting? Is it that he doesn't obey you or just doesn't have any enthusiasm? Ruth n the BC3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted July 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 he's lacking the enthusiasm. He anticipates the sits. He's bored with it all. When I take him off leash, he just looks around and it doesn't stimulate him anymore. I really don't think he needs lessons anymore. I feel obligated to my instructor. Have you felt like that? I've known her with 4 dogs? I told her, I'd show up with a "new" dog, he might not be tri-colored, but he'd be better- LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tassie Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Hmmm - a bit tricky if you feel obligated to this trainer. I truly think you need to sit down with the trainer and ask if there isn't something different you and Usher could be doing. To the list Ruth has given, I'd be adding - a tuggy game for upping enthusiasm, and learning some other stuff with him - e.g. heelwork to music moves, like spins, walk back etc. They're quite compatible even iwth high level competitive obedience, and the dogs enjoy them. Also it's good for the dog to learn to work on the other side - helps to balance them up. You could also try throwing food - eg when heeling, throw a piece of food ahead, tell the dog get it, and as he goes out, turn and keep walking at your heel pace, reward as he gets back into heel position - either with a treat, or with another food toss. You can also speed up recalls with the 2 food game - toss a piece of food to your left, say, tell him get it, and as he comes racing back in, toss another piece out to the right, tell him get it. After a few times, face him as he comes in, and rewards for a nice 'front'. But I don't know if your trainer would be up for this. It certainly gets the dogs going and thinking. ETA - just playing some brisk marching music to work too is lots of fun. Gets both the human and the dog paying more attention, and moving with more precision. Are you doing seek backs with him - that could be fun. And scent games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted July 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 excellent advice about music. Usher is into oldies. I think he would be a good "dancing dog". I will try that and thank you very much!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 What are your goals in obedience? To show him at trials for titles or were you simply wanting him to have some basic commands. If you were thinking of showing him, then you and your instructor need to take a much more fun approach to get the excitement and animation you want. Some dogs naturally love obedience. Many do not. But with the right approach, most dogs can find it about as fun as the trainer does. If the trainer is bored, the dog almost always is too. Personally, I struggle to keep my motivation in that sport and if my dog needs extra encouragement, I start to wilt. Quinn can be wildly animated (at which point I need to ratchet his enthusiasm down several notches) if I put effort and energy into my training. But otherwise, he does a fine imitation of a bored donkey -- hanging head, listless expression, only thing missing is the swishing tail. If you were only wanting basic obedience, sounds like you have that and don't need to continue with lessons. If it isn't fun for Usher and it isn't fun for you, life is too short, don't you think? You could find some other activity to stretch Usher's mind or just hang out together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 I am not sure what you are trying to accomplish. If all you require is basic training it sounds like you have it and perhaps it is time to move on. Speak with your trainer and find out what else you can do. In my experience I have never seen a border collie that was not ready and willing to be fired up but I have also found that once they accomplish something they are ready to move on. I currently have a young dog I am training for herding and he could be the poster boy for BC energy. I have decided he will likely be my last dog so I am going to try to do everything with him I can. I will not likely get into obedience but just about everything else goes fly ball, frisbee, agility etc. My wife is even trying to train him to dance. With this young guy I want to do it all and I have made up my mind to try to teach him something new and stimulating every chance I get, I even have a list of things to do. If you don't tell anyone, I have even begun to work with his dad, my best herding dog on frisbee. Until we got him he had never seen a frisbee in his life. I was told by another trainer to not give him a frisbee or a ball because I will destroy his herding and his ability to work stock. I was told he would never be able to do a trials again. I don't think that is true, he seems to be able to tell the difference between a sheep and a frisbee without hesitation. Get out there and have fun with Usher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Have you considered this from the angle of what Usher may be trying to get across to you in his attitude toward obedience? I ran into this with Dean. Dean is eager and willing and loves training. I had my heart set on him being a Rally dog and then he simply didn't like Rally. He loves Agility. He enjoys Freesyle. But when I took him out on the Rally course, he lost all of that nice eager drive. At first I saw this as lack of enthusiasm, but when I observed him more closely, it was clear to me that - for whatever reason - he found Rally stressful and unrewarding. His demeanor really showed me that he was putting up with it, not enjoying it in the least. Once upon a time I probably would have given it the old college try and made efforts to make Rally more fun for him. I would have considered how I could better use Premack to change his emotional response to the game. I would have used some Control Unleashed games. At the point I'm at in my life right now, though, I decided to simply focus on the activities that he enjoys. Someday I might try Rally again with him again. Years of enjoyment in the ring doing Agility might change our working relationship in such a way that he'll find Rally enjoyable. If not, that's fine, too. I'm not saying to quit or give it up, but that it might be helpful to consider the situation from Usher's perspective. If you want him to enjoy obedience more, what will serve as sufficient incentive to change his attitude toward obedience? The treats that you tried and the ball weren't strong enough motivators. What else is there that he find highly, highly rewarding? I hope that helps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggzmom Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Usher has been to the same trainer the same 1/2 hour the same every other week for a year. I guess I'm bored, too. Today, she told me that he is smarter than the BOTH of us. She "paraded" him around the park pretending like it was a show and the darn dog was waiting for her to say "halt". As soon as she said it, he sat. I used to take a step or two and then stop. But no..............not with Usher. He knows what's expected. He is simply bored. I tried treats, a ball, everything. Any suggestions on how I can get him up and happy about his obedience? Thanks in advance. Dianne Hi Dianne, Is your goal to show Usher in Obedience? If not, it sounds like he's doing fine. But if your goal is competition, you will need to get creative=) My current competition dog is 9 yrs old and has his UDX so you know he's been in the ring quite a few times-LOL. He still loves his training and loves to show. My boy loves it when I make him think(don't all BC's-LOL). As an example, I might set him up for a retrieve. Then, instead of sending him, I might give him a down command, or tell him to come front, or go heeling off in the other direction. I then might tell him to fetch as we are heeling, or from the down, send him to fetch, or from the front position, have him go through my legs and fetch. Another possibility on the retrieve would be to send the dog, down him half way to the DB, then do a recall. Instead of front, have him go through my legs and around to fetch the DB. Those are a few fun things that you can do with the retrieve=) You also can set up your ring and move from one thing to the next with no down time. Keep things fast paced. I usually only train for no more than 15-20 minutes at a time. A book I really like is Bobbie Anderson's, Building Blocks for Performance. She's great at building drive and focus in her dogs! Whatever your goals are with Usher, best of luck=) Happy Training~ Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion318 Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Haven't read through all the ideas but you should keep the training all about two words: Positive Expectations. If the dog is anticipating the sit just don't let him. For example he's going around in a heel position with you waiting for the sit command...if he's anticipating it just don't give the command. If he slows down to sit tell him..."ah ah heel" you have to keep him on his toes. It's crucial for good obedience that the dog doesn't anticipate the comand since he should always be responding to you. And for root beer if your dog doesn't like a certain activity it's probably because the expectation isn't positive enough. Probably he realised that when you did rally with him you got a little frustrated or sad in some situations and then decided he didn't want to have to face that from the owner. You have to keep everything fun for the dog. If he doesn't perform the X command...don't shout and say NOOOOO don't drop your shoulders, ufff and say...you stupid dog...they get it...they realise "this exercise isn't fun cause my owner gets upset" and they then to avoid it. Always keep a positive outlook, make everything fun and unexpected. and don't give up...that will only make it worse EDIT: also from reading your post better it doesn't seem the dog is doing anything too wrong it's just you that's bored with the trainer lol He sat on command that's what he was suposed to do. But i would be bored too with a trainer that after a years practice is still suprised with good sits and stuff. Come on a border collie can get those basic obedience comands down and out of the way quickly Getting the commands to perfection will take time...but come on...sitting on a "parade" around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion318 Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 this stuff ziggzmom wrote while i was typing my answer is exactly what i was talking about...well put Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted July 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Hi Dianne, Is your goal to show Usher in Obedience? If not, it sounds like he's doing fine. But if your goal is competition, you will need to get creative=) My current competition dog is 9 yrs old and has his UDX so you know he's been in the ring quite a few times-LOL. He still loves his training and loves to show. My boy loves it when I make him think(don't all BC's-LOL). As an example, I might set him up for a retrieve. Then, instead of sending him, I might give him a down command, or tell him to come front, or go heeling off in the other direction. I then might tell him to fetch as we are heeling, or from the down, send him to fetch, or from the front position, have him go through my legs and fetch. Another possibility on the retrieve would be to send the dog, down him half way to the DB, then do a recall. Instead of front, have him go through my legs and around to fetch the DB. Those are a few fun things that you can do with the retrieve=) You also can set up your ring and move from one thing to the next with no down time. Keep things fast paced. I usually only train for no more than 15-20 minutes at a time. A book I really like is Bobbie Anderson's, Building Blocks for Performance. She's great at building drive and focus in her dogs! Whatever your goals are with Usher, best of luck=) Happy Training~ Janet Funny you should mention Bobbie Anderson. I know her. She's done wonderful in both herding and obedience. Maybe I'm over training. I should e-mail her and save the $ from the book- LOL. ETA- Usher is already retrieving as he is my service dog. He is downing in the middle of a recall. Maybe "I" am the one that's bored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ziggzmom Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Funny you should mention Bobbie Anderson. I know her. She's done wonderful in both herding and obedience. Maybe I'm over training. I should e-mail her and save the $ from the book- LOL.ETA- Usher is already retrieving as he is my service dog. He is downing in the middle of a recall. Maybe "I" am the one that's bored. You should get in touch with Bobbie....She's always very encouraging and helpful=) Sounds like Usher has a lot of training already, so your job is to keep it fun and interesting for him. It really gets you thinking outside the box training these smart dogs! Janet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 And for root beer if your dog doesn't like a certain activity it's probably because the expectation isn't positive enough. Probably he realised that when you did rally with him you got a little frustrated or sad in some situations and then decided he didn't want to have to face that from the owner. I used to think along these lines, but I've learned to consider my dogs as separate individuals since then. There are some activities that they just love regardless of what I think and we enjoy those things. There are activities that they are neutral about and will love just because I "make" them fun and we enjoy those things. And there are those things that they simply don't like. Some things that they don't like they have to do, but if the dog has a fair shot to see if he or she likes an "optional" activity and it turns out that he or she really doesn't like it, I don't force it. First of all, there are plenty of different activities to choose from. I see no reason to expend a lot of time and energy attempting to teach my dog to love something that he or she decidedly does not like when there is plenty to do that both dog and handler enjoy. And with me this goes both ways. Even though Dean would love herding lessons, we don't take them because I don't enjoy stockwork. I give Dean the same consideration. I would like to do Rally, but I don't make him because he doesn't enjoy it. Agility and Freestyle we both enjoy, so we work on those. We both enjoy hiking and swimming, so we do that. You have to keep everything fun for the dog. If he doesn't perform the X command...don't shout and say NOOOOO don't drop your shoulders, ufff and say...you stupid dog...they get it...they realise "this exercise isn't fun cause my owner gets upset" and they then to avoid it. Wow! If you think I'm shouting or saying "NOOOOOOOOOO!" or droping my shoulders or calling my dog stupid, or anything remotely like any of that you really, really don't know me. Always keep a positive outlook, make everything fun and unexpected. and don't give up...that will only make it worse I would agree with this to a point, but there come times when you really have to think about options and pick your battles. Had I not "given up" Agility with Speedy four years ago, he would not be the dog he is today, I wouldn't know a fraction of what I have learned about training and dogs, and we would have missed out on some of the most amazing experiences. (No disrespect intended to Agility - I love Agility with Maddie and Dean. It just wasn't the right sport for Speedy long, long ago!) Had I forced him to continue with Rally when he had done as much as he wanted with it (and Speedy did love it for quite a while), we never would have gotten into Freestyle and he would have missed out on the chance to do what he loves most - perform routines that he helped to create in front of audiences. When he danced last fall in front of 500 people who thundered applause and I saw the look of bliss in his eyes, I was quite glad that I had taken the time to search out the activity that he could truly love instead of forcing him to do what I originally wanted. Nowadays, we go out and enjoy dancing and performing together. There is no having to "make it fun" because he loves it. The fact that he loves it even when things don't go his way (like I accidentally knock a prop into him or something) really shows that dancing truly suits him. On the other hand, there are times to work through things - especially when the dog clearly enjoys an activity, but there is a particular issue to work through. Dean loves Agility, but he has teeter issues. We will be working through that. We won't let one particular issue hold us back from doing something that we both enjoy together. There are times when staying upbeat, and sticking with the game plan definitely pays off. But there are also times when making the - often very difficult - decision that it's time to move on to something else pays off tenfold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippin's person Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 There are times when staying upbeat, and sticking with the game plan definitely pays off. But there are also times when making the - often very difficult - decision that it's time to move on to something else pays off tenfold. I'm totally with you here Kristen, and I completely agree that it's important to think of dogs as individuals with minds that are not just blank slates ready to be imprinted upon. We got a border collie to play flyball. Pippin didn't like flyball from the time she was a puppy. Never liked it--she would sort of do it, but it was so obvious that she didn't like it that after two years we stopped trying to happily convince her that she did. And, had we not done that, we'd probably have ended up with only two dogs instead of seven and almost certainly wouldn't have ever gone to see if maybe she liked sheep..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion318 Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Wow! If you think I'm shouting or saying "NOOOOOOOOOO!" or droping my shoulders or calling my dog stupid, or anything remotely like any of that you really, really don't know me. Mate don't take it personal...i didn't mean you in particular...although i was using you in example i was talking generaly...we've all seen people get frustrated with the dogs. But again i'm sorry if you took it personaly i had no intention to do so as obviously as you said we've never met Also i agree with what you said...in some cases it's just not worth working with the dog to do something he doesn't like from the start unless its some essencial stuff and not optional stuff Once again it wasn't personal, also glad to hear you've found the perfect activity for you both..if you have some of your routines on youtube i would love to see them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion318 Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 only now noticed your signature had kristine on it..so if that's your name "mate" is a little inadequate.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted July 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 There is alot of good advice on this thread. Thank you very much. I'm going to start using the ball early morning and see if he likes it better. If not, I guess we won't be showing in obedience. After all, It's supposed to be fun for him, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 I had the same problem with my obedience group. I had found a nice 'drop-in' class nearby, and knew Buddy needed socialization, so we'd go once a week. But after maybe six or eight sessions, Buddy definitely was asking me, "What's the POINT!?" He could do all the downs and stays, and the prancing around in a circle was never something either of us saw as particularly valuable. So, when he started protesting by simply lying down or pulling toward the gate, I stopped going. He's happy and fine now. I practice the "important stuff" with him on our walks: freezing off leash when something approaches, doing a strong "wait" at roadsides and in dangerous situations, "sit" and "lie down" when meeting strangers/babies, etc.. My first trainer used to ask me, "What are you trying to get from him? Do you need him to heel at your left side? If it's not important to you, why worry about it?" This guy called his business "Pet Dog Training," which I liked. He worked on all the skills that a pet dog needed to have in order to avoid ending up euthanized or dumped at the shelter: not jumping, staying calm when patted by strangers, sitting, staying, coming when called, taking food gently, passing other dogs calmly. He didn't stress about the formal obedience stuff if it didn't impact a dog's ability to succeed in daily life. Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion318 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 There is alot of good advice on this thread. Thank you very much. I'm going to start using the ball early morning and see if he likes it better. If not, I guess we won't be showing in obedience. After all, It's supposed to be fun for him, too. My i suggest you use 2 balls to increase drive and attachment to you. You throw one to one side and as he thinks "yeah fun i have it" you tease him and throw the other one the other side...this way the dog doesn't play away from you he plays WITH you. Other idea is those ball on rope toys...you can throw them but also play tug with it so the fun is with the owner and not far away from him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 BoPeep I hate to say it, but I've run into this with many dogs trained in an all-positive manner. When the reward gets "boring", then you have to keep up, up, upping the reward. Even dogs that are jackpotted occassionally seem to get an attitude about doing just enough to make it. I'm all for training with positive, but I think in addition to that BCs, most dogs, need to know that this is there *work*. Anticipation is error, Sloppy is error, Slugging is error. Make it his job to try hard and to excell at what is asked even if it is the 10th time (be reasonable of course, within physical limits, but don't forget if this was th 10th outrun you asked for he'd be all enthusiasm ) How does he respond if you say (in whatever method you desire) "this is not enough, I need MORE" in regards to a behavior? Competition obedience goals or pet training goals, obviously you are not happy with his attitude. I'd address they, first with upping my criteria and setting boundaries about what is/is not acceptable, then keep that jackpot reward in reserve for very special effort. In regard to anticipation errors related to learning the owrds I'd have your instructor change the words around. Today "apple" means "fast", tomorrow "pig" means fast. Some days make all the words mean the opposite - if she says fast you go slow, if she says forward, you halt, if she says right, you go left. Complicate the healing patterns up asap. I'm teaching all my current dogs to heel on both sides because I believe it provides neck relief as well as increases their focus to position. The sky's the limit, but as a challange for you both, not a reward for getting sloppy on the ABCs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Mate don't take it personal...i didn't mean you in particular...although i was using you in example i was talking generaly...we've all seen people get frustrated with the dogs. No problem. I realized ex post facto that you probably haven't read very many of my posts, so no worries. Once again it wasn't personal, also glad to hear you've found the perfect activity for you both..if you have some of your routines on youtube i would love to see them I can't post anything from WCFO competition due to their rules, but one of these days I'm going to get someone to video us doing a "dress rehearsal". I'll definitely post something sometime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted July 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 BoPeep I hate to say it, but I've run into this with many dogs trained in an all-positive manner. When the reward gets "boring", then you have to keep up, up, upping the reward. Even dogs that are jackpotted occassionally seem to get an attitude about doing just enough to make it. I'm all for training with positive, but I think in addition to that BCs, most dogs, need to know that this is there *work*. Anticipation is error, Sloppy is error, Slugging is error. Make it his job to try hard and to excell at what is asked even if it is the 10th time (be reasonable of course, within physical limits, but don't forget if this was th 10th outrun you asked for he'd be all enthusiasm ) How does he respond if you say (in whatever method you desire) "this is not enough, I need MORE" in regards to a behavior? Competition obedience goals or pet training goals, obviously you are not happy with his attitude. I'd address they, first with upping my criteria and setting boundaries about what is/is not acceptable, then keep that jackpot reward in reserve for very special effort. In regard to anticipation errors related to learning the owrds I'd have your instructor change the words around. Today "apple" means "fast", tomorrow "pig" means fast. Some days make all the words mean the opposite - if she says fast you go slow, if she says forward, you halt, if she says right, you go left. Complicate the healing patterns up asap. I'm teaching all my current dogs to heel on both sides because I believe it provides neck relief as well as increases their focus to position. The sky's the limit, but as a challange for you both, not a reward for getting sloppy on the ABCs Lenajo- First of all, some excellent advice as always. I am not an all positive trainer. I use a pinch collar and do give corrections. I consider myself middle of the road type of trainer, but am always still trying to learn. My other BC's I've shown in obedience loved it. I also had them in the ring by age one. Usher will be 2 in August, this is what is getting me so frustrated, also my trainer. She just doesn't understand him. Usher is such a serious dog. He never seems to smile, although he seems happy. My trainer is doing the same things you suggested. So, you must be very good also. She uses the word "watermellon" or cherry for halt. I like him only on my left side, because of my dystonia- that is the way I "tilt" LOL. The last time I was in the ring was about 4 years ago. Miss Lacey was going for her CDX and Migraine for her CD. I had broken my ankle and had on a boot PLUS my shaking, it was quite the show. I had trained them all myself, except the dumbell, which Miss Lacey was very stubborn about. I needed help with her. Usher is a great retriever. I decided only to put a CD on Migraine because I was going to the show anyway and just took a few brush up lessons before the show. Here I used to train beginner obedience in our small town and now I'm asking for advice. What a strange world. The computer has brought us so much information and I relish in getting help from everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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