Green trainer/Green dog

[Little Bo Boop]

The other thread, about who works the dog, got me to thinking about something I've wondered about for a while. Coming from a horse background, its a given you never match a green horse to a green rider/trainer. One half of the team can be green, but not both. This same thinking doesn't seem to crossover into sheepdog training though (although I did for the first time, hear a clinician at our last clinic, say that exact thing.) Now with horses, I suppose you could say there is also a safety issue involved, and chances are you're not going to get killed or severly injured by a runaway Border Collie ;-)

I guess I just wonder what some of your thoughts are on this issue. IMO not every person is cut out to be a trainer (of anything, horse, dog, people...) and training a sheepdog requires a lot of savvy in a lot of areas, your dog, your stock, training technique, some psychology, timing, being assertive....For those of you that train dogs and handlers, do you ever get to the point where you just tell the person , you just work on figuring out the handling part ; -) and just leave the dog trainin' to me ;-).

 

B

[Shoofly]

It depends on the person coming for lessons. Some people really get it right off and can understand what's going on in the dog's mind and can read sheep pretty naturally. Some will never get it. You cater the training to the person. One lady i had coming out was driving her dog nuts so we took a few weeks and she just brought the dog out and watched me train it, and i explained what all was going on and what i was doing. After a while, she started working the dog a bit here and there, usually a couple of steps behind where i was working the dog, and we'd trade back and forth, with me keeping the dog a little ahead of where the owner had progressed to. That worked out pretty well and was really rewarding for us both, until the owner stopped coming out regularly and everyone backslid. Another person really learns best by just talking things out so that she understands the goals of what we're trying to do - then she goes off and gets there on her own, but she's really, really good at reading her dogs. Most people fall somewhere in between but i almost always work the person's dog a bit to get a feel for it and what it needs, then get the owner out there working the dog as quickly as it's safe for everyone and okay for the dog.

 

It's always better to put a trained dog in a green trainer's hands but darned if many will do it.

[Debbie Meier]

Being new to stock dogs myself I would have loved to have a trained dog vs. learning how to train my own, but I think I am better off because I am learning how to keep the dog right once he is trained, though being able to start with a well started dog might be a good move if you can find one, so you don't get in the way of the dog learning how to handle stock.

 

Deb

[Shoofly]

I really think, if you're planning to compete at the highest levels, there's no substitute for the actual experience of being "out there". A trained dog will get you there so you understand what you and your to-be-trained dogs need to compete. I doubt you'd find many Open handlers, who've been at this awhile and trained a few dogs, who wouldn't agree that they train dogs differently from how they started. I know i sure do. You just can't train for what you don't even know you'll need. These days, i train for confidence in my dogs more than anything else. I want my dogs to think they can move elephants and are in charge of the world. I don't care of they're a little brash and rash because i know they'll also let me rein in that confidence so we can work as a team. It's hard to even explain if you haven't been there.

[Journey]

It's hard to even explain if you haven't been there.

 

 

Can you try

 

I am in the process of trying to rein in my darling little witch....when it's clicking and things are going well, I see over my shoulder that "he" is standing on the field under a tree. She's not clicking with me, she knows "he" is out there and she will do no wrong!

 

So, I find I am going off on my own and figuring it out. She's not treating me as "road kill" any longer but she is also not working with the same attitude she does with him.

[Debbie Meier]

Does trialing with an Open level dog allow you to see all those little things that the trainer saw that allowed that dog to make it to open? I guess is it possible that you would know what it feels like to be there, but not what it feels like on the road to getting there? Did that make sense?

 

 

Deb

[Shoofly]

Yes, it makes sense but you can't pick the road without knowing the destination, can you? You'll probably end up in the right spot eventually but it sure would have been easier on the car if you hadn't driven 300 miles out of the way.

[Shoofly]

So, I find I am going off on my own and figuring it out. She's not treating me as "road kill" any longer but she is also not working with the same attitude she does with him.

 

Just a guess since i obviously can't see what's happening, but sometimes the dog listens to the person better if he can use some of that energy on bossing the stock rather than fighting the handler for control. She feels more like it's a team thing with the trainer possibly.

[Debbie Meier]

Just a guess since i obviously can't see what's happening, but sometimes the dog listens to the person better if he can use some of that energy on bossing the stock rather than fighting the handler for control. She feels more like it's a team thing with the trainer possibly.

 

interesting post....I need to mull that one over, I know it was replied to someone else but I have had seen it happen to someone who brings her dog up here to work, her dog will listen to me from outside of the field but fight her tooth and nail inside, I figured alot had to do with timing, not that mine is great, just ask my dog.....

 

Deb

[Laurae]

Sometimes, when things are not going well for me when I'm working with Taz, I get more and more frustrated that I don't know how to fix things. And the dog, sensing my own tension, reacts in kind. But the thing is, I usually do actually know how to fix them, I'm just getting flustered, instead of coolly thinking through things. I like working with someone more experienced because s/he can help "reset" both me and the dog very quickly, much more quickly than I can do myself. Often with just a word or two to either me or Taz. So that may also be a part of the equation, Karen.

 

I am a green trainer with a green dog. It has been a slow journey for us, but I can't imagine gaining as rich an education if I weren't working out all the various training problems with him along the way (and discovering all the ways the things I didn't pay enough attention to earlier in the process will come back to bite me, so I'll know to pay attention to them next time). Craig is a trained dog, given to me last year, and he has definitely helped me learn how to handle a dog better, but I am learning the most from Taz. I will almost certainly not gain enough of an education quickly enough to bring out the full potential of Taz, but I believe my future dogs will be the beneficiaries of my struggles with Taz.

[Pippin's person]

I really think, if you're planning to compete at the highest levels, there's no substitute for the actual experience of being "out there". A trained dog will get you there so you understand what you and your to-be-trained dogs need to compete. I doubt you'd find many Open handlers, who've been at this awhile and trained a few dogs, who wouldn't agree that they train dogs differently from how they started. I know i sure do. You just can't train for what you don't even know you'll need. These days, i train for confidence in my dogs more than anything else. I want my dogs to think they can move elephants and are in charge of the world. I don't care of they're a little brash and rash because i know they'll also let me rein in that confidence so we can work as a team. It's hard to even explain if you haven't been there.

 

Did you start with a trained dog?

 

Many of the folks I've talked to about this seem to have started as the green/green combo, worked at the novice level for a while, and then as they realized they had higher aspirations, they got a trained dog. Or they didn't and just became increasingly better handlers by working intensively with someone who knew what they were doing.

 

I ask about people's history with trialing and training stockdogs at just about every trial I go to and I've heard some wonderful stories (like one very well-known handler who started by reading a book. The book didn't specify which direction "come bye" and "away" were, so the first couple of dogs this person trained had opposite flanks). It's pretty fascinating to hear how people have gotten to where they are, but I don't think I've talked to anyone who started at the very beginning with a trained dog.

 

Honestly, I think a trained dog would have been wasted on me two years ago when I first brought a dog to see sheep and decided to keep doing it. I didn't know there were "roads" to be on much less that I could end up going the wrong way (which I did with the first trainer I worked with).

[Mark Billadeau]

I started with a dog purchased from a working breeder with no intentions of training him for stockwork.

Eventially I wanted to try it.

Learning was a struggle with him.

I was offered the chance to work a retired open dog; she was the best teacher I could have.

These dogs know stock and can teach you stock sense faster than any person.

 

Mark

[Little Bo Boop]

I agree with Robin, getting a made dog (if you can) for most people, is probabaly the best route to go. Sure there are the few extraordinary individuals out there that are just naturals and you're going to have your cinderella storys ;-) but I don't think thats the norm for most of us. I first started out training my own dog, and while I felt fairly comfortable in the trainer role, I was also scared that I was going to ruin a nice little dog just due to the things I didn't know. When I started this, I'd never even seen a field trial before, only livestock I'd been exposed to were horses...I'd never really worked a made dog before, so while I had an idea of what I wanted to accomplish, it probabaly wasn't ideal. I guess I would compare it to someone handing me a horse and telling me to train it as a cutter when I've never seen a cow, seen a cutting, or trained a horse. Once I got a trained dog, and started working her and trialing her, things became much clearer, and I had a better idea of what I wanted (and what I didn't want) in a dog. The other thing that I think is helpful in having a trained dog, is it builds your confidence in your training. If you're a novice training your dog, how sure or confident are you in what you're training your dog? If your like most of us ; -) there is probabaly some doubt in the back of your mind as to whether what your doing is right or not ;-) and of course the dog reads that as well...I'm not saying everyone needs to go out and buy an Open dog before attempting to train your own dog, but in my estimation working and or trialing a trained dog, will give you a leg up when it comes to training your own.

[DTrain]

I started with study and then I bought a fully trained dog. The dog came from very good working stock and I am fortunate enough to have friends who are trainers and handlers at a very high level. The dog and my friends put my study and me to shame. They worked hard with me and they did not let up, I insisted. It was the best experience I could imagine. We first worked on my handling skills then my relationship with my dog. When they and my dog though I was ready I was put to the test and again and again. I passed thanks to them and my dog. I now have a relationship with my dog I am proud to say is outstanding. I now train. I have no experience outside of herding training but I don't care. This experience has been the most rewarding thing I have ever encountered and it all started with a fully trained dog. I have come to love what I do and I love my dogs. I have not yet encountered anything more rewarding and uplifting than working with my dog in an open field except perhaps training a new young dog for a great life. I guess I learned my handling and training skills from the dogs point of view if you will.

[stockdogranch]

I think it depends on a person's goals. Do they just want to compete and do reasonably well, or do they want to see what happens if they "build" the dog? I think it depends on the person's learning style, too, as well as if they have any background in livestock. People with a horse background seem to "get it" more readily than most other folks. People with some background in some athletics also seem to have an easier time of it, especially in the beginning when things are pretty aerobic (in the green/green scenario). Like most, I started with the green/green route. Had a trainer who was definitely NOT a people person (as in, "why the hell is your dog running!!" and, "my dead grandmother walks faster than that!!" as opposed to, "you need to work on slowing the dog down a bit--try this and see if this works"), and I am the type who does best if you explain what our objective is, show me once or twice, then leave me alone (as in don't even watch me) and let me work it out. So that worked for me, and I was lucky that I didn't totally "ruin" a dog, just maybe didn't reach its full potential. My training has evolved over the years, and continues to do so with every new one I work or start. At this point in time, I certainly do understand what a great teacher a trained dog can be for a green handler, and I think for many, that would be the best route to go. But for me, I'm really glad I toughed it out the way I did,

 

A

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Even though competition wasn't a huge goal of mine, having a dog that could do what I thought of in my mind as "all that" definitely was, after the first time someone with a dog that "did all that" worked my sheep. The difference was so huge!

 

For me, I've needed a dog with all the pieces in the right place. And someone, or a few someone's, who were willing to say over and over, try it this way. Plus, lots of slogging along just getting my eyeballs on it, over and over.

 

I had a trained dog and learned a good bit from him. But I also learned some bad habits from him, too.

 

It's not just the trained part that's important. It's having a dog that works right and is a willing partner. Our Gus is a good example. After a series of dogs that were trained, but really only interested in suiting themselves, we bought Gus. Gus was trained by the Knoxes. Working him is like being handed the keys to daddy's Cadillac. He's not a finished dog so you have to know how they handle such dogs, and how they get them there. But when Gus is together with you - I had never worked a dog like him before! That may say a lot about my dog training experience up to that point since Gus isn't really out of the ordinary.

 

Now I'm working with Ted, a green dog, but with all the pieces in the right place, and it's made a world of difference. Some of it is my increased experience and a great instructor, too - but there's a lot to be said for the fact that when X is done consistently, Y happens consistently - at least for my learning style. "Oh, I know why that happened" is what proceeds any progress I make - and lately I've been able to say, "I think I have an idea of what to try there." I'm usually not right but it's better than being paralyzed!

[Carson Crazies]

I think I wouldn't have been able to truly appreciate the difference between where I was wanting to go vs. where I was without being where I was. That's a mouthful. The day that I worked someone else's trained dog was the day that I said, "OH!!! So THIS is how it's supposed to feel... and THIS is where I'm trying to go with my dog!". That was the moment that I realized for one thing that my dog at the time was never going to get there, and so I also realized I was going to need another dog. I would have liked a trained dog at that point, but neither the $$ or opportunity presented itself, so I wound up with a pup instead (and have never regretted that).

 

I do agree that starting out with a trained dog is the way to go (at some early point in this process) - but here I am now with the opportunity to have the same, but have too many young dogs right now, and just too many dogs in general to take on another. So I guess the answer is that I think the way to go is to start out with a trained dog if one can, and if it suits the situation. Do most of us do it? No. So I guess it'll take me years longer to figure this all out, but I'm OK with that. For me it's the learning process that appeals to me most - and I totally dig the figuring out (with some amazing help!) how to train the dog thing.

 

If I didn't have a great instructor (and wonderful friends and mentors) I think having a trained dog would be absolutely imperative. If my first pup wasn't sensible and teaching me so much I'd be in trouble. So I think there are lots of pieces that have to fall into place, and that the big answer on the "should I get a trained dog" is different for everyone.

[Shoofly]

Did you start with a trained dog?

 

Nope. Not my first, second or even third dog was trained. Fourth one was pretty much trained but not seasoned. And honestly, 12 or 13 years ago i was one of those arguing very loudly about the process and how i thought it was best to learn along with my dog, etc. Time and experience have changed my mind, at least for people that want to train dogs to be competitive in Open.

 

Many of the folks I've talked to about this seem to have started as the green/green combo, worked at the novice level for a while, and then as they realized they had higher aspirations, they got a trained dog. Or they didn't and just became increasingly better handlers by working intensively with someone who knew what they were doing.

 

Yes, that's very, very true. But you also have to add in that most people competing at trials these days didn't come in from the livestock end of it. Most of us probably started out with a dog and then decided to try "herding" for the dog's enjoyment and then fell down the slippery slope.

 

I ask about people's history with trialing and training stockdogs at just about every trial I go to and I've heard some wonderful stories (like one very well-known handler who started by reading a book. The book didn't specify which direction "come bye" and "away" were, so the first couple of dogs this person trained had opposite flanks). It's pretty fascinating to hear how people have gotten to where they are, but I don't think I've talked to anyone who started at the very beginning with a trained dog.

 

I can think of a couple of people around here who did start out with trained dogs only, and have been pretty successful at trials. I think it's interesting to see people like this become "instant experts" who hang out a shingle and start giving lessons to beginners, when they themselves have never trained a dog from the ground up.

[juliepoudrier]

Wow, out od touch for a day and look at the interesting discussion that comes up!

 

First, I am one of those folks who came from a livestock background (not sheep), got a rescue border collie, decided to try herding, and fell down that slippery slope. I showed horses for years (hunter/jumper as a child, Eng./Western pleasure and dressage as an adult) and I never got the experience of a schoolmaster. It was always green training green to an extent (must just be my lot in life). That said, I think if you are offered an experienced animal (horse or dog) to learn from, you'd be crazy not to accept.

 

Most of us don't go that route, though, for many reasons. For me it was because I started with the dogs before the sheep. My first dog was a rescue. The second was a dog my trainer had--he was just sort of languishing there and I decided to take him on. I did the training on both of these dogs, with oversight from my mentor. I didn't have sheep at home, so there was no danger of me getting an "idea" and going out and really messing things up. I worked my dogs 4-6 days a week, but always at my mentor's farm. While she didn't give me lessons but once a week, she did keep an eye on my practice sessions, and would say something if I were doing something idiotic. Realistically, neither of those dogs was going to be a top dog, so I wasn't harming them by learning on them. In fact, they taught me a lot about working and trialing dogs, especially how to work with dogs who have significant issues, which of course translates into equanimity (sangfroid) on the trial course. (Contrast this with a green friend of mine who has an open dog and feels a lot of pressure to do well on the trial field with this dog because she knows he can do the work, even though she is very much a novice. The pressure I felt with my dogs was simply that of trying to get them around a course as best I could, no expectations of stellar performances.)

 

My third dog was a pup I bought out of a planned breeding of two dogs I really liked (having seen them on the trial field, etc. while running my two novice dogs). I should add that along about this time, I had also tried on more than one occasion to buy an open dog I really liked and who I heard might be for sale. But the owner could never decide to actually go through with selling her. When my pup was about a year old and running in N/N and I needed help teaching her to drive (I knew enough at that point to know that I was putting too much pressure on, but not sure how to fix that), I went to that same open handler for help. Once she got to know me, she decided I would be a good retirement home for that same open dog I had tried to buy earlier (this is one of the reasons I always tell folks to get out and get to know open handlers and trainers--they will be more willing to make offers of retirees, etc., if they know you already).

 

I later bought a trained dog at a good price because she wasn't a good shedding dog. She was a completely different dog from my others, and for that reason alone I thought she was worth having--it would expand my training "repertoire" so to speak. There's no way I would have been able to handle her as a green handler simply because she would have been way too fast for me. By the time I got her, I was up to the challenge, but I think she might have overwhelmed me had I started out with her.

 

So I can't speak to the value of starting with a trained dog because I didn't do that. I can speak to the value of getting a trained dog at some point simply because it does improve your learning curve, especially at the trialing end of things. My concern with starting with a trained dog is that a complete newbie can't really know what kind of dog suits him/her. You can spend an awful lot of money just to find out that the dog you got isn't the best partner for you, for any number of reasons. If you do that with a young dog or a rescue, then your investment isn't as great. And while you're learning on that youngster or rescue, you are probably forming your own ideas about the type of dog you like best. You also will likely have a mentor who has gotten to know you and your training/handling style and then can make informed suggestions about trained prospects that would be a good match with you. So my advice would be that even if you start out with a green dog, at some point, fairly early on, it helps to get a trained dog to help improve your handling skills (it's not going to improve your training skills, IMO, because the dog is already trained).

 

When I got Jill from Sam, I was really at a point where I could learn the most from her. I don't think I could say the situation would have been the same even a year earlier. But once I had some training and handling under my belt, I could appreciate what I could learn from an open dog without quite as much risk of bringing that dog "down to my level."

 

Since I'm running on, per usual, I'll end with this. I think the choice between trained and green depends a lot of the human's personality as well. I enjoy the process more than anything. I loved training green horses, even though progress was slower, especially when I started in dressage, since I was new to that discipline (though certainly not to riding) and so had to learn as I went along. For me, it's the same with dogs. I don't like drilling, and once a dog is trained, there's not a whole lot more to do with it, excpet perhaps drilling (or chores). The youngsters are a new challenge every day.

 

J.

[Chesney's Girl]

Being a green handler with a green dog, I am really starting to see that I am really happy I got to start Chesney. I got to learn through trial and error (and having a helpful trainer), and I am lucky that my dog is beyond forgiving. With me starting Chesney I know he probably won't reach his full potential but I wouldn't have traded the learning experience for anything. I feel like for me now, I had to be on a green team to learn as much as I have. It seems to me that I would have missed out on the how the dog works and thinks part if I would have had an already made dog nor would I have appreciated all that goes into training up a dog and without that knowledge and respect of the hard work, there is a good chance for losing some respect of the work. I guess I'm just one that likes to jump in with both feet and experience the hard with the great all at once

[hsnrs]

What a great topic. My green dog (Aussie) and I worked with our experienced BC trainer today. What a great experience for both of us; we are hooked. Also BC trainer agreed to work with me and my Aussie to finish her Open ASCA title and AKC (sorry guys) Started Sheep title this fall. Just had to share. Keep the advice coming; it is so great to learn from you guys. N

[DeltaBluez Tess]

>>My green dog (Aussie) and I worked with our experienced BC trainer today. What a great experience for both of us; we are hooked.<<<

 

Good to see you have an open mind to work with an BC trainer. I see Aussies people who REFUSE to work with a Border Collie trainers since they claim the BC trainer knows nothing about Aussies. Then they proceed to trash the Border Collie folks saying we down our dogs all the time or require immeidate responses.

 

A working dog, wether it is a Border Collie, Aussie, Kelpie or Corgi or whatever still needs to know down, recall, flanks and the basics....each has a different working style and a good trainer will adjust for that. Any dog, regardless of breed, must have a good down when working my stock and also I do not allow the dog to chase the stock about.

 

It annoys me when I go to an ASCA trial and I see some runs that the dogs just chase the stock about and they manage to make the panel and the sheep are wild-eyed and panicked. That is not herding.

 

Then again, I have see some fantastic runs too. Quiet and very workmanlike.

 

Also I have seen some nice Aussies run in the USBCHA trials and they had good control.

 

Ever make it to Seattle, come on over and we can work stock!!

 

Diane

[hsnrs]

Thanks; wish we could train with all herding folks. We have met lots of really nice people in the AZ herding club. They all support one another. BC trainer is great. She trains all breeds. N

[DeltaBluez Tess]

We had a fun Novice trial here in February. The award for best outrun, lift and fetch was an Aussie. She did amazingly well and rated her stock on the money. Her owner comes here and spent hours on the basics and solid foundation work, working on clean outwork, working in pens and big fields and it paid off.

 

I think she only lost 1-2 points on her outwork. It was very impressive. And she is from herding lines also.

When she did her outwork, she got a big round of applause from the crowd.

 

I love the owners who are commited to working with their dogs. It really pays off. Keep up your work with your dog!!!

 

Diane

[Angie H]

Coming from a horse background, its a given you never match a green horse to a green rider/trainer. One half of the team can be green, but not both. B

 

This is an interesting discussion for me as I am about to go through this very scenario right now - being a VERY green handler, with a 7 month old Border Collie!

 

Binx is my recently adopted rescue (I just introduced him to the boards in the general area) The rescue I work with is located on a sheep farm. After seeing his interest in the sheep, our rescue director (and owner of the farm) had him put in the round pen and it was determined that he wants to work. Apparently he has natural BALANCE and does a lovely outrun to either the left or right with ease. (Balance, Outrun and Lift are the only terms I have learned so far )

 

Our first lesson - or should I say MY first lesson is this Thursday evening.

 

I am very fortunate in that I do have access to sheep and also have a couple of friends that trial their dogs.

 

I am attending a Kathy Knox clinic in December....I just hope I can keep up with my dog