mum24dog Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 I've posted this in the general section rather than agility as I think the subject has wider application and I've mentioned agility as that's what I know about, but it applies to other sports too. Let me say at the start that I am 100% in agreement with the view that there is no justification for breeding for sport. For my own interest, I was mentally reviewing where our own club members got their BCs. (It's only in the last couple of years that we have started to get a majority of BCs at training, but we were unusual over here in having so few.) We have 2 conformation bred - one is OK healthwise but struggles a bit over the jumps and doesn't have much stamina. (Owner has been well and truly brainwashed and informed me that his dog was what BCs are supposed to be like. OK - short and thickset with a heavy coat and no bounce, right?) The other (a blue merle) has no end of health problems and never really got off the ground (literally) in the sport. Neither has any working drive at all. Two are sport bred. One will be very good - the other has nothing at all about him, and a littermate is the same. The dog at club couldn't even work out how to get a toy from under a clear plastic box at 6 months. The litter contained those 2, another that was a bit timid, 2 probably OK and 1 top dog - all from a successful dam and sire. Three are ISDS registered from trialling/working lines - they'll be pretty good with the right training. Most of the rest are a motley crowd of rescues (obviously farm type) and farm bought from working but non trialling parents. Some of our best dogs are amongst that bunch. I could have had a surplus pup from one of the top triallers round here last year. He'd given 2 pups to be rehomed as I'm told he didn't have the time to train them. Don't know why he didn't sell them but local farmers can be a bit strange (as farmers go). An elderly woman I know who took up trialling in her 70s has been given 2 part trained dogs to work and is doing OK with them. I could also have had a 6 month bitch from another breeder who breeds for work primarily (has her own sheep farm), but who also sells to agility/obedience homes and supplies S&R dogs. Her dogs do have working drive but the problem (as has been mentioned elsewhere) is that the sports buyers then breed from them with other sport dogs. (I must ask the breeder when I see her how she has managed to keep Sealight markings in many of her dogs and retain or reintroduce working ability into her line - and I do mean proper work in this case.) Then we have a friend with another club who has had a succession of pups from the same farm in Scotland - all brilliant at agility. She helped home lots of the pups with other agility folk too and all have the same ability. It's highly unlikely that any of them will be bred from, though. Most, if not all have been neutered. Could they have worked stock? Probably. Of all her dogs her old beardie x BC and her collie dog from the farm show most tendency to herd. She now has a sport bred dog (long story - alcohol related) that looks just like her farm dogs and will be just as good at agility, but that's because she knows what she wants in a dog for the sport and is a great trainer and handler. She could have got another pup from a rescue or a farm and got the same result. Sorry for rambling - just thinking aloud. What it boils down to is that there are plenty of ways to come by a good agility dog without having to go to a sport breeder -good as their dogs may be for that specific purpose. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErinKate Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 My dogs came as rescues. Max, who I think would LOVE agility, is physically unable due to injury. He was way over trained as a puppy, and I believe it broke him mentally. Pete who has TONS of natural drive and herding ability loves agility, but never moves out of that fast crouching jog! lol He however fascinates me in the fact that he can watch 10 runs, memorize the course, and just go run it with little guidance. Rescue dogs rule!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 Rescue dogs rule!!! Wouldn't have anything else myself. Our BC even has a "Rescues Rule" collar for agility just to make the point. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaggieDog Posted July 6, 2008 Report Share Posted July 6, 2008 Both of my girls are mixes from shelters; one I messed up when I was learning how to train for agility myself and she's accurate (100% clean for at least the last 10-12 trials over the past 6 years), but slow. My young dog is proceeding through training at a crazy rate - had her first trial run (at an exhibition show) a few weeks ago after just 12 weeks of training - and she is going to be a great agility dog with some more work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Both of my Agility dogs are rescues. While it took Maddie a while to be trained, and she isn't the "driviest" of dogs (neither of which are because she is a rescue but because of who she is), she is surprisingly solid and I am having an absolute blast running her. She has come into her own at the age of seven and I am just delighted with the enthusiasm, and skill, that she has been running with this past year. Dean is still learning, but he is so much fun to work with! He has tons of drive, but he also has the much-coveted off-switch! And he's going to be FAST when we get our communication down out there! But he's the kind that makes you smile even when it doesn't come together as planned!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
in2adventure Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Rescue Rescue Rescue Lucia is a rescue dog and great at agility. (mom needs a bit of work though ) I think AKC pedegree has nothing to do with workability. IMO they breed the ability to work out of the dog. The OP made a comment about the farm dogs doing the best job in the agility arena. That's because they are bred to work, not look pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haleigh Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Haha. I don't have a rescue...I have a purebred from proven working lines, straight off a farm thankyouverymuchmadame...but I don't really take pride by her pedigree. If Joy didn't melt my heart the minute I saw her, I would have a little sweet rescue (from working lines, too) that showed great potential in agility. One thing I think (please, do correct me if I'm wrong) that helps with agility that some stock dogs have, unlike show dogs, is slight cow hocks. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard that working dogs are preferred to have slight cow hocks to improve with the sharp turns needed for herding. They aren't as fast on the straight away as straight legged dogs are, but the pivoting is amazing. I know many conformation BC people I know have sneered at Joy and commented on her ugly structure, but she is also amazingly built for her "original" job, which carries on to agility. I guess I'm on the boat of it doesn't really matter where you got your dog from, from sport, conformation, or working lines, it just matters if you have the right training and heart. I think everyone could be good at agility. Heck, our little fat bichon is turning into an agility master. He comes from a pet shop too. His lines are labled "worthless inbreds that will cost $1500 with proven health problems" but you can't tell when he's on a course. Granted, he's not very good because he's in a beginners class with my not so knowledgable step brother, but he's turning out pretty good. For a non-border collie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLloydJones Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Senneca is a rescue girl. While there are excellent BCs in need of adoption, I wouldn't consider anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Living in Australia in a farming area dominated by kelpies I knew very little about BCs and nothing about the comformation vs working situation. I was looking for a farm bred kelpie and ended with a B/W BC from a breeder who was wanting to rehome her after she didnt work out for the initial purchaser who became ill. She is definitely from show lines but she is lean and fast and very smart and has a fabulous easy going friendly temperament. She is not the driviest dog unless she is chasing a ball or chasing birds in the backyard then she is fast and keen and she will run for miles on the beach chasing a ball. She is also quite a soft dog and so training her for agility is very different from my drivey extroverted ACDS and poses a few new challenges but she has the build and speed to be very good if I dont stuff her training up. Some of her siblings are top agility dogs. If I were ever to get another BC I would go the working lines. But I am pretty keen on ACDS and kelpies so we shall see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Living in Australia in a farming area dominated by kelpies Kelpies are getting a lot more popular in the UK both for stockwork (especially in Wales and Scotland where sheep are often widely scattered) and agility and the breed is following the same pattern as the BC. Red and tan are most common, then black and tan with a few solid colours, not necessarily indicative of show lines (not recognised here anyway). One I know particularly well is solid black and looks just like any old mutt and came from a Welsh farm - was going to be drowned with his littermates by the farmer so they wouln't end up in the hands of local kids who let their dogs run wild and worry his sheep. I don't think the Welsh have a word for neutering. Most of the kelpies around the agility scene are sport bred from a couple of breeders with agility champions. There are dogs from lesser breeders with lower working drive still. More and more appearing in rescue too as the same sort of people who buy BCs and can't cope now buy kelpies. Sound familiar? Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 Like THAT makes any sense. More and more appearing in rescue too as the same sort of people who buy BCs and can't cope now buy kelpies. Sound familiar? Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 One thing I think (please, do correct me if I'm wrong) that helps with agility that some stock dogs have, unlike show dogs, is slight cow hocks. Not sure about that. I'll be examining the rear ends of all the dogs I see for the next few shows obviously. It's an interesting theory. Ours doesn't seem cow hocked but his hocks are quite loose, especially at a slow trot. No loss of power or stability on turns though. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 More and more appearing in rescue too as the same sort of people who buy BCs and can't cope now buy kelpies.Sound familiar? Pam Like THAT makes any sense. It makes no sense at all. The kelpies I know are all working bred and would be unsuitable for most situations outside a working home. I have never seen a show bred kelpie. We have a stack of kelpies coming through rescue as farmers often give their extra pups away if they dont shoot them first so a working bred kelpie in a back yard is often way to much for most people to cope with. We have some come to obedience training with all sorts of problems related to suburban life. All the kelpies in agility are either rescue wich are mainly farm bred or from breeders who breed working dogs and have tons of drive and are very good. I have yet to meet a low drive kelpie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted July 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 I have yet to meet a low drive kelpie! Unfortunately I have. It appears that some breeders here have jumped on the bandwagon to supply the market and are producing lower drive dogs. Maybe that's a good thing if it makes people realise that just getting a kelpie is no guarantee of success. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadows Mom Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Shadow is from a working line. Both her parents are trained to herd, as are her grandparents, great grandparents etc, and most of her siblings; but Shadow is allll about agility. She is FAST. I just did it as a way for her to get exercise and have time near other dogs, never expected her to be so good at it! I went with a purebred for the main reason that I was told there were no rescues at my end of the country, and I've had nothing but trouble with dogs and the border. I didn't know about the HUGE network of folks who help get rescue dogs to new homes, or I would have surely had a rescue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Mmmm I can see why the BC folk get so upset about issues I never thought about before, not really ever having seen a working border collie. I see working kelpies all the time and it is hard to imagine the kelpie as anything else but an awesome working dog! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat W. Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 My first bc and agility partner was a petstore puchase, not high drive, no behavioral or health problems. He was a wonderful agility partner for 10 years retiring at 13.5. Both my current pup in training and my daughters partner are rescues and ever shall be unless I have the opportunity for a really really nice working line pup and rescue is empty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 All the kelpies in agility are either rescue wich are mainly farm bred or from breeders who breed working dogs and have tons of drive and are very good. I have yet to meet a low drive kelpie! I don't know about "drive" as an all-encompassing term, but I have a kelpie who isn't that into agility. He can be really fast, and with loads of work I can get some decent runs out of him (he's won a few big events), but he doesn't live for agility the way really great dogs do. But he's insanely keen on sheep, and will work all day for me, especially in the yards. He's not a great sheepdog, he's probably not well bred (he's a rescue), but he is handy on the farm and would have been an OK dog without my training. So drive/ability for agility and sheepwork don't always go together. I think I live in your neck of the woods (by Australian standards), so if you ever want to meet a low-drive (for agility) kelpie, let me know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 If I wanted to do a sport, such as agility or flyball, I'd get myself a rescue. To do agility and be good at it, a dog doesn't need to be bred for it. I do herding, so I obviously have dogs bred for herding as not just any dog can do it without the breeding behind it. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 I don't know about "drive" as an all-encompassing term, but I have a kelpie who isn't that into agility. He can be really fast, and with loads of work I can get some decent runs out of him (he's won a few big events), but he doesn't live for agility the way really great dogs do. But he's insanely keen on sheep, and will work all day for me, especially in the yards. He's not a great sheepdog, he's probably not well bred (he's a rescue), but he is handy on the farm and would have been an OK dog without my training. So drive/ability for agility and sheepwork don't always go together. I think I live in your neck of the woods (by Australian standards), so if you ever want to meet a low-drive (for agility) kelpie, let me know Yes I live in the neck of the woods, maybe I have seen your kelpie at trials!. I have only met a few agility kelpies being fairly new to the whole sport and they all seem very active! Living in the country I only get to some trials so probably havnt seen them all. Most the kelpies I have seen are working sheep and they are always madly keen! I love to watch them working! I often dog sit a friends kelpie and he is an active little fellow. My 16 mo BC also can be a very fast and active dog but I dont think she will live for agility either, not like she loves her ball and long hikes exploring and stalking me and the other dogs in the crouch position from behing sand dunes ! Much more fun! I think sometimes she looks at the jumps and thinks what on earth is the point of doing that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjk05 Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Yes I live in the neck of the woods, maybe I have seen your kelpie at trials!. Yep, I think we might have competed together at the States You run a cattle dog? My red/tan kelpie was at his absolute worst, can't-be-bothered attitude, had to pull him around the courses, a total drag . But he did still make the NA/NJ finals again- didn't win anything this time though We were at the Classic + Royal, too. I used to run a fast kelpie (now deceased) and a stumpy cattle dog (now old and retired), and now we live in the country too, with no local training club, so the dogs are just working sheepdogs for most of the year, and I get up to Perth maybe 3 times a year to do some agility training and hopefully a trial or two. Understandably, we don't do very well! I might be heading up for an agility weekend some time in the next couple of months, so if you see me around the rings come and say hello. I'll either have the disinterested red/tan kelpie, or one of an assortment of highly enthusiastic and really badly trained working border collies For ID purposes, this is the collie I've trialled recently: http://www.yourdogphotos.com/displayimage....328&pos=243 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted July 10, 2008 Report Share Posted July 10, 2008 Yep, I think we might have competed together at the States You run a cattle dog? My red/tan kelpie was at his absolute worst, can't-be-bothered attitude, had to pull him around the courses, a total drag . But he did still make the NA/NJ finals again- didn't win anything this time though : Yes I ran my ACD in the NA/EJ finals and she was never going to win but I was so pleased with her as she got her agility dog title and I remember your kelpie. My ACD just adores agility and gives everything she has but has had 2 cruciate repairs in the past and is nearly 8. I wish I had discovered agility when she was a young dog! I will only run in her in the trials following summer when she is fit from swimming. I run my BC for the first time at the end of August! She is a social butterfly and will be the one more interested in greeting the judge than jumping the course. She is not reliable like my ACD so anything could happen! I also have a beautiful young keen 6 mo ACD, but a suspicion of elbow dysplasia is currently hanging over her. Mine are all badly trained as we do most of our pracitise on home made jumps at the beach but we have fun. I will probably run in a few trials after August with my BC so will probably see you there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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