Eye Color

[appyridr]

An interesting discussion is going on in another group about eye color. In my experience, Border Collies have brown eyes, amber eyes, blue eyes or a combination & sometimes with flecks. Is that true? Someone stated that blue eyes are more sensitive to the sun...which I know in my own blue eyes is true - I can't see squat without sunglasses. :-) However I wonder if it necessarily is the same for dogs with blue eyes? And what does that mean for dogs with one blue eye? And would there be any difference with blue eyes and black 'eye liner' compared to 'pink eye liner'?

Has anyone experienced blue eyed dogs having trouble when working on bright sunny days? Does anyone know what produces blue eyes? I have a dog with a wee blue fleck in one eye; one littermate has a partial blue/brown eye, the rest of litter have either one or two blue eyes. Neither parent of this litter has blue eyes but their maternal grandmother does. My dog has sired two litters, each with one blue-eyed pup. Both blue eyed pups also have his white head although I don't know if there is any correlation about that. He is the only white headed dog in his litter although three of the six are split faces.

I'm not wanting to start discussing the pros and cons of making breeding decisions based on color. I am not a 'fan' of blue eyes or white heads but I have two with both. :-)

I am just curious about eye color and how it relates to coat color if at all.

thanks Lani

[bc4ever]

I don't know. One of Scooter's litter mates had one brown and one blue eye. Scooter's eyes were blue for the first few months, then they turned light brown. Big help, huh?

[Little Bo Boop]

I have NEVER been a fan of blue eyes (dogs or horses) they used to give me the creeps, ;-) especially in horses...but my Stella has blue eyes, with black eye liner, and I can't say I notice any diff. or problems with her in bright sunlight, and we're in south Texas. I will say thiere is a diff. in blues eyes though. I have a paint gelding with blue eyes, but they are really more what we would call 'glass eyed', and I've seen dogs with that as well. Maybe its just me, but when they are 'glass eyed',it just seems harder to read them (maybe its just my imagination ; -) ) Stelly has fairly blue eyes, (almost person like) and I can't imagine her without them now ( the color, not the eyes LOL )

[appyridr]

I've also just recently read that sheep react differently to blue or light colored eyes than to brown eyes. I don't buy that anymore than coat color. I think presence & amount of eye would have more to do with it. Plus I think it would be extremely difficult to test or prove; you would need two identical in every way except color of eye...and how often do you find that? :-)

I understand the point about breeding 'for' color can lead to loss of working ability. But what about breeding 'against' color - leads to same thing doesn't it? If people avoid blue eyed dogs, split faces, white heads or merles and breed predominently to classically marked tri-colors & bl&wh....isn't that the same just in reverse? Before anyone gets going, I know that most working breeders do not avoid blue eyes or split faces....but can you say the same for avoidance of merles? Can someone with more knowledge of the history of BC color comment? In working lines(not the 'sport' or agility lines), were there more 'odd' colored dogs in the past than there are now? By 'odd' I would suggest; blues, merles, reds? How much was Wiston Cap's classic look an influence?

Another question would be why the prejudice against merles but not against white factored? One has no proven health risks while the other could.

cheers Lani

[Little Bo Boop]

All I can go by is my own experience, but my dog is fairly light colored (more 'merle like' I guess) and blue eyed, and so far she has absolutley no problem moving sheep. Now that may be because she really is kinda scary looking, and when she puts the ojo malo on them, she is SERIOUS! LOL but whatever the reason, she moves them. I also have a split face dog that has no problem moving anything. And I can't say I've noticed that the sheep challange my 'off color' dog any more than they would a traditional blk/wht brn eyed dog. That being said, I have a bald faced dog here (a litter mate to my blue dog) and the sheep do challenge him, and unfortunatley he is a little weak ;-(...so in answer to your question...ya just never know.

 

ETA: Just wanted to add that even though my dog, Stella, is what you would call 'Off colored", the 'color' came completely at random,and as quite a surprise at that, there was no intent whatsoever to get a blue dog, blue eyes, or anything else that would be considered 'designer color'. Her pedigree is strictly working bred, lots o' Aled Owen...so of course all of that must be taken into consideration as well.

[juliepoudrier]

Can someone with more knowledge of the history of BC color comment? In working lines(not the 'sport' or agility lines), were there more 'odd' colored dogs in the past than there are now? By 'odd' I would suggest; blues, merles, reds? How much was Wiston Cap's classic look an influence?

Another question would be why the prejudice against merles but not against white factored? One has no proven health risks while the other could.

cheers Lani

Lani,

These questions have been discussed before a lot, and if you do a search you could probably find old threads. Here's one that has a lengthy discussion on color, including merle: Merle explosion?

 

Rather than repeat the information here, I'll just refer you to that thread to start. ETA: The actual discussion about merle and working ability, etc. seems to start on p. 3.

 

Also, for the last part of your quote, are you saying that merle has no proven health risks and white factored does? Or the other way around? At any rate, the health risks associated with merles are discussed in the thread I linked to. I know of no health risks associated with white factoring (if you're referring to potential deafness in white-headed dogs, that's a different genetic issue, not necessarily associated with white factoring; that is, white headed and white factored are not believed to be the same, genetically).

 

J.

[in2adventure]

I have a dog with one blue and one brown that also has minimal "eyeliner". We run outdoor agility trials and I've never seen (or noticed) a problem with the sun. She does squint a lot, but so do I I was once told to buy her doggles for outdoor trial days. It will protect the pick skin around her eyes from burning since I can't put sun screne there. I haven't bought them yet (and may never).

 

The one odd thing I notice with her is at night. Things seem to look different to her. I used to think she was scared of the dark, but now I'm pretty sure it's her perception of shadows and shapes. Maybe a bit of night blindness?

 

The post Julie suggested has great info on coloring. It will answer most of your questions and maybe even make you think of a few more

 

[appyridr]

>These questions have been discussed before a lot, and if you do a search you could probably find old threads. Merle explosion?

 

Sorry if I brought up a re-hashed subject. I did follow the Merle explosion. I guess I also should have stuck to my original topic which was about blue eyes. It came up on another group with an ACD pup having one blue eye. Which is very rare in that breed. So we were discussing where it comes from. It seems that in a number of breeds, blue eyes are often associated with merle coat colors. But it seems that doesn't apply with our Border Collies; they are so few merles but many blue eyed dogs of black & white color.

 

>Also, for the last part of your quote, are you saying that merle has no proven health risks and white factored does?

 

Correct that is what I said. However I have since learned that was wrong.

 

> I know of no health risks associated with white factoring (if you're referring to potential deafness in white-headed dogs, that's a different genetic issue,

 

I was referring to the potential deafness issue. Maybe I am wrongly informed on that as well? I realize that white factor in itself has no health risks. But if you breed two white factored dogs, there is risk of white headed...which might have potential deafness?

 

 

>white headed and white factored are not believed to be the same, genetically).

 

By white-headed, I mean a completely all white head. Not a white face with black cap or ears.

Thanks for the correction. I am much better informed about merles now - I did not realize that anyone actually bred for double merles.

cheers Lani

[juliepoudrier]

I was referring to the potential deafness issue. Maybe I am wrongly informed on that as well? I realize that white factor in itself has no health risks. But if you breed two white factored dogs, there is risk of white headed...which might have potential deafness?

 

Yes, I think that is correct, although I imagine you could breed two non-white factored dogs and perhaps still get a pup with a white head? (Incidentally, I bred two white-factored dogs, one more piebald, one with Irish markings but the telltale white up the inside of the hind leg, and I got everything ranging from a white bodied pup, with ticking, who had a normal black mask and ears to a pup that was mostly black and everything in between, although most of the pups were also very heavily ticked, except for two, who were classic B&W--Irish markings--with no white factoring evident. I know of another breeding between two white-factored dogs that did produce at least one white-headed deaf pup. I don't think the outcome of a white factored x white factored is easily predicted.) There is a good recap of the genetics of color at this site, and here's a relevant quote about spotting (white factor) and white headed dogs:

 

S, white spotting. This is another somewhat unsatisfactory series, and one in which modifying genes appear to have a very large effect. Certainly there are genes for solid color, for a more regular white spotting, and for basically white with some colored markings. But the variability within each type makes it unclear how many alleles actually occur at this locus. In general dominance is incomplete, with more color being dominant over less color. Heterozygotes commonly resemble the more-pigmented homozygote, but with somewhat more white.

 

All of the spotting genes are assumed to be affected by the action of modifiers, with + (plus) modifiers being generally understood to increase the amount of pigment (decrease white) while - (minus) modifiers being assumed to decrease the amount of pigment (increase white.) Merle appears to act as a minus modifier, in addition to its effects on coat color.

 

It is not clear to what extent the S series affects head pigment. Color-headed white shelties, for instance (swsw), can have completely colored heads - not even a forehead star or white nose. On the other hand, relatively conservatively marked dogs can appear with half white or all white heads. There is probably at least one other gene series that affects head markings. [emphasis added] It is at least possible that the plus and minus modifiers affect head and body markings simultaneously.

 

 

By white-headed, I mean a completely all white head. Not a white face with black cap or ears.

 

The problem is that apparently the pigment needs to be lacking in the hairs deep down inside the ear for deafness to occur. So you could have a pup with color on its ears who still lacked pigment in hairs inside the ear and so was deaf. Likewise you could have a completely white headed dog with normal pigmentation inside the ears who would not be deaf.

 

I did not realize that anyone actually bred for double merles.

cheers Lani

 

I imagine scrupulous breeders do not!

 

And to bring things back around to your original question, here's a comment regarding eye color and the merle gene from the same site linked above:

 

Merle acts on the black pigment in the iris of the eye just as it does on the coat, so merle dogs often have part or all of the eye blue. (This does not affect their vision, [emphasis added] though since it happens to some extent in the retina as well it may make it harder to diagnose certain eye problems.)

 

If this is correct, then you might be able to assume that the blue eyes in merles and blue eyes in non-merle dogs are perhaps controlled by different genes. Let me go looking. Here is a site that briefly discusses color genetics of eyes. Here's the relevant part about blue eyes--she repeats what was stated in the quote above about the merle gene's ability to affect eye color and then has this to say:

In addition there is a blue eye gene that is independent of color.

 

 

And from the Australian Shepherd Health and Genetics Institute comes this:

 

Sometimes Australian Shepherds which are not merle will have blue eyes. These eyes (sometimes one, sometimes both) are completely blue, or perhaps half blue/half pigmented. They are never flecked or marbled.

 

This kind of blue eye has nothing to do with the merle gene, white trim genes or the albino gene (which probably does not exist in dogs). These eyes are completely sound, though perhaps slightly light sensitive just as blue-eyed people are slightly more light-sensitive than those with brown eyes. Siberian Huskies are an example of another breed with this type of blue eye.

 

The mode of inheritance is unknown, but since the blue eyes can be single or a pair and an individual eye may be half-and-half, there is probably more than one gene involved.

 

I don't know if any of that clears up any of your questions, but perhaps it's a start.

 

J.

[Liz P]

Here is a BAER tested normal dog with a white head and white outer ears but color inside. Sorry for the photo quality, my sister took it while she was messing with my camera settings. There were no blue eyes in this litter but I know they run in the lines as his dam has several blue eyed siblings, one of which is red with 2 blue eyes and an all white face. Her hearing is also fine.